OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

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marqs
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by marqs »

Galdelico wrote:And, a couple of questions, hope you don't mind, guys:
- after having experienced a couple of very random sync drops with my Japanese Saturn (mod.2), I set H-PLL Pre and Post-Coast to 3, as suggested in the OSSC Wiki page. I figured to keep the same values for the Mega Drive too, just to be sure. Or is it better to leave them respectively at the default 1/0, when the sync is already stable?
1/0 is only required for NESRGB/SNES, 3/3 is better choice in general for SD sources.
Galdelico wrote: - speaking of Sampling phase... As I said above, in order to have a perfectly centered image with my Japanese Mega Drive 2 (and get rid of that 1 pixel column of overscan) I had to move it one notch to the left, from 180 to 168 (or 169). I followed a purely visual logic, though. I wonder, is there a proper way to pick up the correct value?
There's no universal value for optimal phase, it is dependant on source, video lpf and sync lpf settings.
NJRoadfan wrote:The biggest problem with transcoders is that its really an unneeded analog-digital-analog transition.... one that usually screws up 240p video! Ideally, it would be best to do it completely analog (at least for s-video, composite really benefits from digital comb filters), but chips for that went out of style in the 90s. Interfacing the digital output of a TVP5160 into the OSSC isn't all that straightforward without a significant redesign.
Yes, TVP5160 cannot be practically integrated to OSSC. Realistic options only include add-on boards using analog decoder like CXA1621 (good luck finding one) or brute-force oversampling incoming composite signal (TVP7002 has 165MSPS ADC after all) e.g. from Y-input and doing chroma decoding and other processing in digital domain.
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

Thanks once again! ^_-
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Nrg »

BuckoA51 wrote:
Would it be possible to create an add-on board for S-Video and Composite using something like the TVP5160?
I hope someone does, I've been pretty disappointed with the available transcoders. The old Sony YR ones don't support NTSC (or I assume the ones sold in the USA don't support PAL) and the Lindy one I tried was useless, couldn't get a stable picture with my C64.

The only one on the market apart from that is this - http://www.svideo.com/svc2ypbpr.html

Which looks high quality but is somewhat expensive!
I've been happily using Extron CD400 Svideo to RGB transcoder. It works out-of-the-box with C64 svideo, for example. Combined with OSSC of course. You can find CD400's from Ebay at times.. (Note that Extron CD900 did NOT work for me with C64, I assume because it's a newer model it's more sensitive to the svideo input signal levels, so it might need extra resistors to the cable.. I didn't try that yet)

Also the Sony YR transcoder I have doesn't work out-of-the-box with C64 svideo either.. in all-white screens the YR would totally mess up the signal and loose sync, so I had to add extra resistors to lower the svideo signal levels, and then it started working OK.. but I think the Extron CD400 has better quality anyway, and it works without extra tweaks, so it's a better choice..
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BuckoA51
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

in all-white screens the YR would totally mess up the signal and loose sync
Yes I found that too. What resistor would you recommend?

Thanks for the info! Do you know if the CD400 supports PAL and NTSC?
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orange808
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by orange808 »

BuckoA51 wrote:
in all-white screens the YR would totally mess up the signal and loose sync
Yes I found that too. What resistor would you recommend?

Thanks for the info! Do you know if the CD400 supports PAL and NTSC?
Yes. :)

The cd400 does a nice job. The comb filter isn't terrible, either.
Spoiler
Image
The trouble is that Extron decoders have gotten difficult to find and expensive. Once a piece of gear gets onto a retro website, the resellers swoop in.

People that still have an XRGB-1,2, or 3 might want to consider using it to output 15khz. There are dirt cheap composite to svideo transcoders on ebay with better comb filters than the XRGB boxes. Chain them together for a quick fix.

Kramer also manufactured decoders. The obvious one is the FC-10dxl. It conveniently outputs component video, but I have never found one at a reasonable price. The ordinary FC-10 handles 240p, so it's likely the FC-10dxl would work with the OSSC and classic games. I'll post more information if I ever find one.

Edit: ** Spoke with a good friend today and I have been wrong about tbe VM-19. The Kramer VM-19 and FC-19 decoders will not maintain sync with 240p. So, don't bother with a Kramer decoder. **
Last edited by orange808 on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We apologise for the inconvenience
Nrg
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Nrg »

BuckoA51 wrote:
in all-white screens the YR would totally mess up the signal and loose sync
Yes I found that too. What resistor would you recommend?

Thanks for the info! Do you know if the CD400 supports PAL and NTSC?
Ok so I have the retrocomputershack C64-svideo cable, which as a default has 300 ohm resistor on chroma signal. But I had to add 75 ohm resistor on *luma* signal to get it working OK with Sony YR S-RGB transcoder. Note that 75 ohm resistor was just a "random" test, because at the time it was the smallest resistor I had available.. So probably other ohm values will/might work too.

I'm using the Extron CD400 with PAL C64. It *should* also work with NTSC, but that I haven't tried personally.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by lui »

Has there been any cases of success regarding displaying a pc-98 via the OSSC?

The timings for a pc-98 analog signal are as follows:

Pixel Clock: 21.0526 MHz
H Freq: 40.28 us (24.83 kHz)
H Front Porch: 3.04 us (64 Pixels)
H Sync: 3.04 us (64 Pixels)
H Back Porch: 3.8 us (80 Pixels)
V Freq: 17.72 ms (56.42 Hz)
V Front Porch: 0.28 ms (7 Lines)
V Sync: 0.32 ms (8 Lines)
V Back Porch: 1.01 ms (25 Lines)

If anybody would be knowledgeable as to what the advance timings should be set as.
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

marqs wrote:There's no universal value for optimal phase, it is dependant on source, video lpf and sync lpf settings.
Quoting this part again because - thanks to a very helpful advice, given to me by a poster at VGP forums - I found out it's possible to rectify the slightly squashed aspect ratio Linedouble outputs by default (I'm testing it with the Mega Drive, now, but this applies to every other source I connected to the OSSC), by adjusting the Horizontal samplerate from 858 to 800.

Since I'm now getting very subtle jittering, during horizontal scrolling (it's not wide-spread all over the screen, but localized around fine details, such as the tips of the green palmtrees on blue background, in Sonic 1), I wonder if there's something else to tweak, in order to perfectly stabilize the image again, as it was before touching the H samplerate.

Thanks in advance!
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xadox
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by xadox »

Is anyone using a Hisense TV that supports SNES and x3?
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Harrumph
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Harrumph »

Atleast one model supports x3, but none has tested with SNES yet.
Check my sig for link.
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marqs
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by marqs »

lui wrote:Has there been any cases of success regarding displaying a pc-98 via the OSSC?

The timings for a pc-98 analog signal are as follows:

Pixel Clock: 21.0526 MHz
H Freq: 40.28 us (24.83 kHz)
H Front Porch: 3.04 us (64 Pixels)
H Sync: 3.04 us (64 Pixels)
H Back Porch: 3.8 us (80 Pixels)
V Freq: 17.72 ms (56.42 Hz)
V Front Porch: 0.28 ms (7 Lines)
V Sync: 0.32 ms (8 Lines)
V Back Porch: 1.01 ms (25 Lines)

If anybody would be knowledgeable as to what the advance timings should be set as.
Number of scanlines: 24.83kHz/56.42Hz = 440 (ossc selects 384p mode based on this)
V. active: 440-(7+8+25) = 400
H. samplerate: 21.0526MHz/(440*56.42Hz) = 848
H. active: 848-(64+64+80) = 640
Rest on the parameters are already on your list
Galdelico wrote:Quoting this part again because - thanks to a very helpful advice, given to me by a poster at VGP forums - I found out it's possible to rectify the slightly squashed aspect ratio Linedouble outputs by default (I'm testing it with the Mega Drive, now, but this applies to every other source I connected to the OSSC), by adjusting the Horizontal samplerate from 858 to 800.

Since I'm now getting very subtle jittering, during horizontal scrolling (it's not wide-spread all over the screen, but localized around fine details, such as the tips of the green palmtrees on blue background, in Sonic 1), I wonder if there's something else to tweak, in order to perfectly stabilize the image again, as it was before touching the H samplerate.
Did you try adjusting H. active (e.g. to 640) instead of touching H. samplerate? If your monitor processes data enable signal properly, then that should be better alternative compared to reducing samplerate.
ZellSF wrote:How's 4x/5x looking anyway? does it work on most computer monitors or is compatibility worse than 3x? I know a bit impatient to ask rather than just wait for a stable firmware release and see for myself, but it's exciting news :)
They should work fine on computer monitors. Line5x is close to the limits of what ossc hardware is capable of, but apart from some instabilities when using SNES (the effect of its problematic sync signal seems to amplify with higher output rates), I haven't noticed any major issues. Line5x allows setting output format to 1920x1080, 1600x1200 or 1920x1200 to make it usable in various configurations, while Line4x output is fixed to 1280x960.
lui
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by lui »

marqs wrote: Number of scanlines: 24.83kHz/56.42Hz = 440 (ossc selects 384p mode based on this)
V. active: 440-(7+8+25) = 400
H. samplerate: 21.0526MHz/(440*56.42Hz) = 848
H. active: 848-(64+64+80) = 640
Rest on the parameters are already on your list
OSSC Display:
Image

As you had mentioned, it detects the input whilst automatically selecting 640x384 mode. (Not 384p)
However having the (640x384) advanced timings set to the following:
H sample: 848
V active: 400
H active: 640
H backporch: 80
V backporch: 25
H synclen: 96 (default)

Still provides no image.
Perhaps it is an issue with this particular monitor not being capable of displaying the V frequency of 56.4Hz.
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

marqs wrote:Did you try adjusting H. active (e.g. to 640) instead of touching H. samplerate? If your monitor processes data enable signal properly, then that should be better alternative compared to reducing samplerate.
Thanks! ^_-

I guess my monitor doesn't process it properly, because adjusting Horizontal active lenght only seems to crop part of the picture (specifically, from the right side), without resizing it as it's supposed to do, according to the Wiki page.

After some further setting/fine tuning with my monitor, though, I must say I'm totally fine with Linetriple too. Sure the scanlines are thinner - compared to LineX2 - but at 100% intensity, with the screen's sharpness set to zero, and from the distance I usually play at, the image looks very similar to what I used to get on my CRT. Plus, the true 4:3 make everything look correct.

It's not a huge deal, the only very minor thing I wanted to see if I could rectify, at this point, was the visual 'jump' in ratio between a Linetriple'd image and everything else, on the same source/console (i.e. having 240p games on the Saturn looking perfect, and interlaced ones - like Virtua Fighter 2 or Dead or Alive - a bit wider than they should). For now, I solved it by creating two profiles, but that's just because I'm quite OCD about this kind of stuff. :mrgreen:
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Thomago
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Thomago »

As some of you may know, Game Boy Interface allows blowing up the GBA's 240x160 resolution by a factor of 3, thereby filling NTSC's 720x480 pixels completely (and evenly - very important!).
These 720x480 pixels have to be displayed in a 3:2 aspect ratio. otherwise the image would be warped. That's where a flexible scaler like the Framemeister comes in handy, as most displays aren't able do that (it's either 16:9 or 4:3 there).

I thought that possiblity was gone with the OSSC, but by increasing "H. active" to 850 I managed to do exactly that. I just wanted to share that little success.

Image

(This might also come in handy for all those console games that wrongly assume an 1:1 pixel ratio.)
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Guspaz
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Guspaz »

That will have some compatibility issues, many displays don't let you mess around with the active areas.

The Framemeister doesn't necessarily need it: you can give it 240p and let *it* handle the integer scaling. This can be useful for situations where you have s-video or 15khz RGB, but not component or DVI.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by bacardi »

Hey peeps, is registering for the newsletter at VGP the only option of having any chance to order the assembled unit? Cheers :)
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Guspaz
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Guspaz »

Yes, it's currently the only mechanism for pre-orders.

Once the waiting list is empty (that is, once supply catches up with demand), they'll be available for general purchase. Until then, the waiting list is the only way.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by bacardi »

Guspaz wrote:Yes, it's currently the only mechanism for pre-orders.

Once the waiting list is empty (that is, once supply catches up with demand), they'll be available for general purchase. Until then, the waiting list is the only way.
Thanks :)
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cr4zymanz0r
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by cr4zymanz0r »

Will there be the possibility of ordering the HDMI audio add-on in the next big round of orders? I'd like to have it, and I'd be fine if I could 'reserve' my OSSC when it's available and have it on hold until the audio add-on is available as well.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

That shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by bacardi »

Just a couple of questions to the device:

I have a 1080p Sony Bravia screen - I've heard OSSC does only 720p, or does it / will it be able to go higher than that? I wonder how well it would look if I enabled scanlines with 720 output on a 240p game.

How well do the scanlines look for 480i material from PS2 by the way? Cheers.
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

bacardi wrote:Just a couple of questions to the device:

I have a 1080p Sony Bravia screen - I've heard OSSC does only 720p, or does it / will it be able to go higher than that? I wonder how well it would look if I enabled scanlines with 720 output on a 240p game.

How well do the scanlines look for 480i material from PS2 by the way? Cheers.
I still need to take some time and provide decent pics, but the scanlines look great on the OSSC.

On my 4K LG monitor, they look just a tiny bit thin in Linetriple mode (but then again, I quickly got used to it, and they still look better than Framemeister's at 1080p, in my opinion), reminding me they way they were rendered on my 21" Trinitron TV. In Linedouble, though, they're thick and softer, giving you a proper analogue feel.

About interlaced contents, now.
Mind you, I didn't buy the OSSC to get the most pixel-perfectly crisp, emulator-like image, so I keep the scanlines on even with the PS2, the XBOX and the GameCube. Not only they help reducing the flicker alot (almost completely, in motion), but make the games look pretty damn good on my monitor... Once again, way better than they used to look on my CRT TV, with the very same cables (especially the XBOX, with the OEM RGB scart lead).

The one and only odd occurrence I'm experiencing with 480i graphics, happens with my Japanese Saturn, specifically with Virtua Fighter 2. Basically, the interlaced 2D elements on screen - like the life bars, the fighters' names etc. - leave a temporary burn-in on the monitor. It goes away pretty quickly, but it's definitely noticeable, after a complete playthrough.
I wonder what's causing it, and if it could potentially damage the display, on the long run...
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by bacardi »

Galdelico wrote:
bacardi wrote:Just a couple of questions to the device:

I have a 1080p Sony Bravia screen - I've heard OSSC does only 720p, or does it / will it be able to go higher than that? I wonder how well it would look if I enabled scanlines with 720 output on a 240p game.

How well do the scanlines look for 480i material from PS2 by the way? Cheers.
I still need to take some time and provide decent pics, but the scanlines look great on the OSSC.

On my 4K LG monitor, they look just a tiny bit thin in Linetriple mode (but then again, I quickly got used to it, and they still look better than Framemeister's at 1080p, in my opinion), reminding me they way they were rendered on my 21" Trinitron TV. In Linedouble, though, they're thick and softer, giving you a proper analogue feel.

About interlaced contents, now.
Mind you, I didn't buy the OSSC to get the most pixel-perfectly crisp, emulator-like image, so I keep the scanlines on even with the PS2, the XBOX and the GameCube. Not only they help reducing the flicker alot (almost completely, in motion), but make the games look pretty damn good on my monitor... Once again, way better than they used to look on my CRT TV, with the very same cables (especially the XBOX, with the OEM RGB scart lead).

The one and only odd occurrence I'm experiencing with 480i graphics, happens with my Japanese Saturn, specifically with Virtua Fighter 2. Basically, the interlaced 2D elements on screen - like the life bars, the fighters' names etc. - leave a temporary burn-in on the monitor. It goes away pretty quickly, but it's definitely noticeable, after a complete playthrough.
I wonder what's causing it, and if it could potentially damage the display, on the long run...

Hey thanks for this :) Would love to see the shots :D

Really burn-in on a LCD panel? That's weird O_O
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

@bacardi: many Sony Full-HD series are known to not support linetriple/720p from the OSSC, unfortunately.
You'll need a secondary scaler/processor in the chain between the OSSC and the TV, typically a DVDO like the VP30/VP50/VP50Pro.

Now the burn-in from LCD is a weird thing indeed, I've read about it only once many years ago, but I don't think that's anything people should worry about at all, just another bizarre statement from Rtings.
iirc LCDs show varying pixel response times depending on the panel's type and its temperature/room temperature, they need to heat-up a bit, especially VAs. That's the only think I can think of that could be mistaken for burn-in, but leaving marks on the screen ? Nope I don't think that's ever happened or ever been proved to be even possible.

@Galdelico: maybe you are seeing combing artifacts or something, I doubt this has anything to do with the panel.
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Thomago
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Thomago »

I have in fact seen something resembling burn-in on a Philips Brilliance 180P: The outlines of Windows' task bar were permanently visible.

But...

a) the Philips Brilliance 180P has very slow pixel response times, so that might have played a role
b) the "burn-in" wasn't permanent; after a few days of displaying stuff other than the task bar, the effect was gone
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

Sorry guys. ^^;
I called that 'burn in' without too much thinking, because what happens is... I play Virtua Fighter 2 for about 20 mins, and some parts of the UI (specifically, if you look at this picture, it's basically the white lines under the lifebars and the clock/fighters' names, and the bottom part of those little win/lose squares) they remain faintly visible for a while, on solid colors areas.

If it can helps, here's another couple things I notice:

- the above 2D graphics elements in VF2 are clearly hi-res, as in they flicker even with scanlines on. Other 480i games on the Saturn, that use 240p graphics UI instead (Dead or Alive, Astra Superstars...), work just fine and nothing happens to the screen

- after playing Virtua Fighter 2, once I turned off the Saturn and the OSSC, and let the monitor go standby, it displays a full white frame, where I can spot a visible flicker, in the same exact places where what I called 'burn in' was, beforehand (hope it's clear... Instead of seeing the actual trace of said lines, I can see the white fickering, whereas it's 100% still and stable, everywhere else)

@bacardi - I'll definitely post pics. I owe Xyga a full reportage as well. :D
@Thomago - now that you mention that... I set 'Response Time' on my LG to low, because I've read it doesn't add any extra lag. Plus, that 'mask' is absolutely temporary on my display too. Actually, it seems fading away even quicker if I switch to any source that can be output in Linetriple mode.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

@Thomago: I read a bit on the subject and from what I could gather it's another of those unfortunate generalizations people make when they've found specific issues.
The first most common offenders were Apple Cinema displays which had a in-casing high temperature issue, causing the panels to overheat and behave abnormally (pretty much any panel tech will show unexpected flaws when not used in acceptable conditions) or otherwise quiiiite old monitors.

Then you get websites like Rtings making statements like 'VA are faster than IPS', or 'IPS most commonly suffer from image retention', and everyone goes insane (yes since they've integrated this to their tests apparently there are more and more people freaking over it everywhere)
*facepalm*
Tons of people read Rtings and thanks to them now associate IPS with slow responses and image retention... a combination of flat out wrong and extreme exaggeration.

@Galdelico: wrong link ?
It's a bit hard to picture your issue with just words but I assume this is really hard to capture on camera or video.
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

Here's the link, Xyga (works for me): https://www.satakore.com/satengine/scre ... -2-JPN.jpg

And yeah, I tried to capture it in any possible way... No luck unfortunately. :/
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by bacardi »

Xyga wrote:@bacardi: many Sony Full-HD series are known to not support linetriple/720p from the OSSC, unfortunately.
You'll need a secondary scaler/processor in the chain between the OSSC and the TV, typically a DVDO like the VP30/VP50/VP50Pro.

Now the burn-in from LCD is a weird thing indeed, I've read about it only once many years ago, but I don't think that's anything people should worry about at all, just another bizarre statement from Rtings.
iirc LCDs show varying pixel response times depending on the panel's type and its temperature/room temperature, they need to heat-up a bit, especially VAs. That's the only think I can think of that could be mistaken for burn-in, but leaving marks on the screen ? Nope I don't think that's ever happened or ever been proved to be even possible.

@Galdelico: maybe you are seeing combing artifacts or something, I doubt this has anything to do with the panel.
Ugh that's bad news.... I guess I should just go for a Framemeister :/ I got the W series which i read have an issue, the 4k ones are fine but it's an overkill of a TV, i don't have any 4k content to run on it anyway :(
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Xyga
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

@G: Had to grab the link from the raw post, didn't work for some reason.
Anyway I see what you mean, since those stark plain colors are flickering at the same location for a long time it is possible that they leave the overstimulated liquid crystals remaining a bit stunned/sluggish for a while.
This is probably an extreme case, after all it resembles the conditions of those dodgy little programs people run to get pixels un-stuck using extreme strain.
I can't tell you if there's a risk of leaving permanent marks or not, but that's definitely not exclusively IPS-related, all panel techs have some technical limitations.

@bacardi: a used VP30 or VP50 to pair with your OSSC might cost less than a Mini, and you'll keep the low lag.
If you have PAL games you intend to triple though, the VP's might not be good, the EDGE would but unlike the VPs it won't retain the low lag in every situation.
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