ketsui empty lock: the final decision

[Bananamatic]

as requested
it's the time of the year when shmup forum discusses shmup gameplay
no meme options because people would rather be funny than discuss shmups

reminder that there is a replay that gets 500m without empty locking
an optimized 1st loop without empty locking is around 240m
an optimized 1st loop with empty locks is around 285m
the total current game potential of SPS' routes is around 600m, it does not magically double your score or contribute even more than 10% of the total scoring potential and it does not exist in the second loop as far as I know

[Despatche]

It's incredibly bizarre that this is going to be a serious thread.

[Shepardus]

It's incredibly bizarre that people think increasing a game's skill cap and making it more complex is a virtue worth pursuing for its own sake.

[vvv_stg]

It's presumably a good way to make the scoring in the first loop more fun (especially if you're so good that you can reliably reach Ura). Kinda turns it into a shmup mixed with a rhythm game.

[iconoclast]

It's obviously a glitch but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Bananamatic]

It's caused by the shot kill chip check and lock kill chip check being done at 2 separate points

kill enemy = check for lock shot, if yes->apply multiplier, don't drop any chips, if no->don't apply multiplier, drop a single chip based on proximity
after that check the dead enemy spawns an explosion, if lock shot active->spawn chips based on the multiplier active (explosions drop those chips, not the enemy), if not then don't spawn any chips

so you kill with shot, spawn a single chip and don't apply the multiplier and activate your laser before the explosion chip check by careful shot manipulation and cause that one to spawn as well

it's also possible to "reverse empty lock" by killing the enemy with laser so you spend the chips on the counter and release the laser before the explosion check happens, so you get no chips at all
that is possibly even harder and does nothing but hurt your score

it's the exact same mechanic that works on the midbosses and bosses like the st2 boss 1st phase without anyone thinking it's a glitch, except they explode for several seconds so it's trivial to just kill with shot and hold down lock shot and have the explosions vomit chips

if the possibility of manipulating the shot mechanics to pull it off on zako enemies was intended, who knows
intended behavior at unintended spots at worst

[trap15]

Cool implementation quirk turned scoring mechanic, imo

[CStarFlare]

What trap said.

It's one of those things most players would be better off not knowing, though - kind of like serious rank management in Garegga, they tend to think it's worth doing for them and ends up overcomplicating the game when they're still learning to play. I know I try to empty lock like a fucking tool when I struggle to see 100 mil or get to stage 5.

[Xyga]

The Way of the Empty Lock, it's a form of shmup karate.

[Blinge]

it's the time of the year when shmup forum discusses shmup gameplay

Pahaha.

yeah maybe I should learn how to empty lock in this life..

[Cee]

It's one of those things i find fascinating to spectate in high level play but find no interest in learning myself outside of the more intuitive simple instances.

[Aliquantic]

If you like Ketsui and empty locking and you know it, play Battle Traverse

[drunkninja24]

As someone who has put a lot of time into Ketsui but hasn't really dug into more advanced scoring strats, I actually like it. Even though I rarely utilize it to its full potential, it makes things interesting to try each run I do.

[Despatche]

It's incredibly bizarre that people think increasing a game's skill cap and making it more complex is a virtue worth pursuing for its own sake.

Not really. Usually (empty lock was meme'd into existence), most players are never going to know something like this even exists, let alone be good enough to put it to use. Then you have the good players who get a little more mileage out of their game.

Win/win for sure. The only losers are the people who are overly concerned with this twisted sense of "accessibility" (i.e. fearmongering over something they happen to have heard of), the people who never take the time to figure out the various details of a given element of a game's design (required to even begin to judge accessibility).

This is speaking from principle, and does not refer to empty lock specifically. However, empty lock seems to fit the pattern from what I know and have heard of it.

[Shepardus]

It's incredibly bizarre that people think increasing a game's skill cap and making it more complex is a virtue worth pursuing for its own sake.

Not really. Usually (empty lock was meme'd into existence), most players are never going to know something like this even exists, let alone be good enough to put it to use. Then you have the good players who get a little more mileage out of their game.

Win/win for sure. The only losers are the people who are overly concerned with this twisted sense of "accessibility" (i.e. fearmongering over something they happen to have heard of), the people who never take the time to figure out the various details of a given element of a game's design (required to even begin to judge accessibility).

This is speaking from principle, and does not refer to empty lock specifically. However, empty lock seems to fit the pattern from what I know and have heard of it.

You could say the same about any well-hidden and difficult-to-execute mechanic that gives a slight score bonus. Doesn't mean it has any place in this particular game. My gripe with empty-locking isn't its accessibility, it's that I don't find it fun at all and that it distracts from the things that I do like about Ketsui. It throws in an extra rhythm into the game that clashes with the core wide-shot/focused-shot rhythm, and it emphasizes the precision of individual actions (in this case, knowing precisely when an enemy is going to die) rather than the flow between actions which is something that turns me off a lot of games. To me the only thing fun about empty-locking is that it gives more chips. Sure, I could ignore it and do for the most part, but that just turns a blind eye to the fact that the game is encouraging me (by giving me more points) to do something I don't enjoy. If you do enjoy empty-locking, more power to you, but it doesn't play to what I see as the game's strengths and as a result I don't consider it good for the game. Thankfully empty-locking is a very minor thing in Ketsui so it doesn't detract from my experience much.

[Squire Grooktook]

On that note, I'll just say that I don't like most Cave scoring systems at all (except Dangun, which is my god), and this sounds like an exemplifcation of it.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Sounds like a good thing for those interested in it. I'm not voting 'cause neutral.

[Cagar]

-

[x91]

Good for the game, bad for players. Doing this too much can hurt your fingers you know.

[emphatic]

Good for the game, bad for players. Doing this too much can hurt your fingers you know.

Known as "Ketsui hand" here amongst Swedish fans.

[gray117]

If you're in the bracket that matters it seems kind of interesting.

The problem seems to be that is a constant trick - not one occasionally employed on distinct/shorter sections of the game? So instead of adding variety it becomes another thing to do constantly (at least for first loop)?

I.e. Mechanically not devoid of merit, but just not best implemented/realised?

[cul]

On one hand i'm a huge fan of emerging gameplay. That's why i find speed-running fascinating.

On the other hand, when non intended game mechanics emerge and render obsolete "playing as intended" if you wanna high score, I have mixed feelings. For instance, I can totally understand the devs fixing the glitch and removing the emerging mechanic. But again, sometimes unintended feature can even define a genre and unintentionally makes it way more than it was intended be (Quake circle jumping wasn't intended, Tribes surfing was intended, etc.).

This poll needs a serious third option :^)

[KAI]

Glitch turned into mechanic by players imo, like SF2 and it's combos.

[PROMETHEUS]

For what I've played of Ketsui, I feel like I don't really like the empty lock stuff. It's very heavy on knowledge, since you need to know very precisely the hit points of each enemies to use it, and then it takes skill to use it sure... I think of the ratio knowledge/skill and in this case idk. Kinda tedious? If I played the game at a high level I think mostly I would rather not have to bother with it, maybe it's something that makes me not want to play it so seriously too. Actually, I think the number one reason why I don't like it is because I feel like it leads to more rigidity in how you can approach the game for a high score, which is kind of the opposite of the quality of ketsui to begin with when you compare with dodonpachi.. so yeah in my view I would say it's not a good thing.

However as you pointed out in OP it amounts to a sufficiently small bonus to mean that if you don't want to have to deal with it you can just not bother, you won't get world record but can still compete like if you are a little better than your rival you would still beat him...

Doesn't it lead to more risk too? First loop is hard enough, when you are not allowed a mistake to get into ura..... too punishing? :P

[Jeneki]

I am ok with mechanics like empty lock, as long as they don't become the primary scoring mechanic. I've seen more than enough people get the loops without empty locking their way through the game, so I'm not going to worry about it. This isn't the Aero Fighters 3 bomber barfing out more points than the rest of the loop combined.

I am also ok with mechanics that give me a little something extra to do on early stages, where I'd otherwise shut my brain off.

[DestroyTheCore]

Glitch turned into mechanic by players imo, like SF2 and it's combos.

Or Battle Garegga. But it's a double standard here, so I won't go further.

[Blinge]

Good for the game, bad for players. Doing this too much can hurt your fingers you know.

Known as "Ketsui hand" here amongst Swedish fans.

haha this has gotta be a joke right?
B-but i'm always holding two fingers on the beam and rapid shot buttons at the same time, first and third fingers
Am I doing myself a mischief?

Also have we arrived at the final decision yet?

[emphatic]

haha this has gotta be a joke right?
B-but i'm always holding two fingers on the beam and rapid shot buttons at the same time, first and third fingers
Am I doing myself a mischief?

No joke. Play Ketsui for an extended time = hand feels 100 years old.