Strong aesthetic, weak gameplay

[Squire Grooktook]

All these controversial picks...

This is going to become a blood bath.

Spoiler

Good

[Shepardus]

Battle Garegga

[Vludi]

Gekirindan, pretty game with nice music but the gameplay feels uninspired with Compile-ish pace to me.

[Cee]

Guwange has weak gameplay?

You have to understand the majority of posters here like sumez are just straight up terrible players who think they went full shmup because they spent 20 hrs getting a 1cc once and don't have a single decent score to their name, Guwange is as deep as it gets and increasingly so as you get better thus most don't get to witness or understand it's complexity.

[Shepardus]

Is complexity what makes a shmup's gameplay good though? I like Guwange but it's mostly because I find the bullet cancelling very satisfying.

[Klatrymadon]

I think Metal Black plays beautifully, particularly after you've realised your ship's full capability, but I can see why someone might think it epitomises the thread. It has a set of fairly familiar, staid play mechanics married to this intensity of aesthetic ambition. It's peerless in terms of its world-building and its tone (which achieves a sombre maturity at times), and is a rich, heady experience that stays with you, even if the gameplay doesn't click...

[BIL]

Cheers, ol' MBDF pardner. There's my cue to kick down the door and bring Mr. Bulletmagnet to waterboard justice in a bad cop stylee, before the Darius lynch mob can arrive to finish him off.

REPENT BULLETMAGNET YOU LOUSY BUM (・｀W´・)

All these controversial picks...

This is going to become a blood bath.

Spoiler

Good

Exclusive Topic Forecast from Real Pro Gamer™

Spoiler

;3

[Sumez]

R-Type III
The Games Paradise
Layer Section

Layer Section are you serious dude?
Game Tengoku isn't excelent gameplay-wise but it's not weak at all

I guess my understanding of "weak gameplay" is a bit different... Going by the OP, I didn't get the impression that he meant games with BAD gameplay, but rather where the gameplay itself does nothing to attract you to the game. Hence fucking MUSHA as an opening example.
I don't think good looking games that play like absolute horseshit (Xenon 2) are worth even discussing.

Those are all games I love (ESPECIALLY Layer Section), but where I gotta admit the main appeal is the presentation. I'm not a fan of Layer Section's "ground enemy" targeting thingy, but in general I think the game is very solid and plays perfectly well. However if it looked like crap I probably would have never bothered with it. Contrast Omega Fighter which looks horribly boring but plays like an absolute dream.

[Sumez]

Guwange has weak gameplay?

You have to understand the majority of posters here like sumez are just straight up terrible players who think they went full shmup because they spent 20 hrs getting a 1cc once and don't have a single decent score to their name, Guwange is as deep as it gets and increasingly so as you get better thus most don't get to witness or understand it's complexity.

Thanks for the vote of faith, brah
I think I tried to make it obvious that Guwange was my "trolly" suggestion. I recognise that Guwange has a deep scoring system and really creative patterns and challenges. But I just can't stomach the insanely strict combo mechanic that carries over between stages, takes forever to get to a point where you start making scores that actually matter, and completely resets to 0 after even minor mistakes. I get it, it's hardcore, but I don't enjoy it. As such, I only play Guwange for it's amazing aesthetics.

[Shepardus]

Have you tried Guwange special ver. (aka Guwange Blue)? It's slightly easier to start scoring in it since you can coin-stream from the start rather than having to build up 1000 coins first, and it's a bit more forgiving since the chain won't drop while you're bombing (the meter will just drop down close to the minimum, similar to holding the laser on an enemy in Dodonpachi), unlike regular Guwange where bombing is often a death sentence for your chain.

I actually find chaining in Guwange to be relatively lenient for a "chaining" game. The penalty for dropping the chain is massive, but the game gives you many ways to keep the chain going, and it rarely requires very precise timing or positioning. There are some problem spots that require you to plan ahead but for much of the game the chain almost maintains itself as long as you don't get stuck in a corner. The real scoring challenge is in optimizing bullet cancels and other coin sources, which is more like Progear than Dodonpachi.

[AxelMill]

"The [Psikyo] game, for there is only one". Very pretty and detailed sprites, maybe some of the best I've personally seen, but gameplay-wise they're all really basic. "Hold A to charge an attack that consumes your power meter" is the deepest thing you can find there. Besides Sol Divide. But that's a different story.

I'm surprised at the lack of R-Type Final. So I was wrong when I though it was universally loathed, when I read (one of) its topic(s) here, some time ago.

[Lyv]

gameplay-wise they're all really basic. "Hold A to charge an attack that consumes your power meter" is the deepest thing you can find there.

Dragon Blaze, the Gunbird series.

Mahou Daisakusen seems to fit the bill; really nice visually speaking, but the gameplay is somewhat basic.

[Shepardus]

gameplay-wise they're all really basic. "Hold A to charge an attack that consumes your power meter" is the deepest thing you can find there.

Dragon Blaze, the Gunbird series.

Space Bomber especially. It's actually pretty surprising how fun and unique that game is.

[chempop]

takes forever to get to a point where you start making scores that actually matter

I wish people didn't have this ideology, that scores don't matter unless you are a world record class score player. It's ruining the hobby imho.

[mice]

Ikaruga.

[PuToTyra]

A game with strong aesthetics is never forgettable-a game with good gameplay but poor aesthetics tho is worthless

[Stevens]

"The [Psikyo] game, for there is only one". Very pretty and detailed sprites, maybe some of the best I've personally seen, but gameplay-wise they're all really basic. "Hold A to charge an attack that consumes your power meter" is the deepest thing you can find there.

Have to disagree a little here homey. Dragon Blaze and Zero Gunner 2 play pretty uniquely.

[Sumez]

I wish people didn't have this ideology, that scores don't matter unless you are a world record class score player. It's ruining the hobby imho.

I know what you're getting at, but I'm not talking about world record score, I'm talking about a huge margin between before and after you build up a high enough combo in each individual game.

I know you COULD just ignore the scoring system, but then again, isn't that what we're here in this thread for? Playing the game for what it does well, rather than the core design of its gameplay?

[IseeThings]

A game with strong aesthetics is never forgettable-a game with good gameplay but poor aesthetics tho is worthless

This is basically true..

so many games are considered classics just because they looked pretty, but many of them had terrible gameplay or game breaking bugs that people just seem to overlooked. while not a shmup, I'd say Dragon's Lair was the epitome of this; 0 gameplay value, horrible to play in every sense, but 'beautiful' cartoon graphics = classic that still gets revised and released today.

then you have games that looked rough around the edges but played beautifully and nobody even talks about them anymore.

anyway, for the thread I'll nominate battle squadron, people seem to rave about it, I'm assuming based on looks, because it's a horrible game to play, and one of a handful of titles that put me off the genre for a good 10 - 15 years.

[Tregard]

I'm surprised at the lack of R-Type Final. So I was wrong when I though it was universally loathed, when I read (one of) its topic(s) here, some time ago.

I expected it to be the very first reply, but then assumed people were sticking to Squire's request for the obscure. Personally though I think Final is only guilty of being a weak R-Type game, not a weak game.

[BulletMagnet]

REPENT BULLETMAGNET YOU LOUSY BUM (・｀W´・)

I REGRET NOTHIII*gurgle*

[Vludi]

"The [Psikyo] game, for there is only one". Very pretty and detailed sprites, maybe some of the best I've personally seen, but gameplay-wise they're all really basic. "Hold A to charge an attack that consumes your power meter" is the deepest thing you can find there. Besides Sol Divide. But that's a different story.

I'm surprised at the lack of R-Type Final. So I was wrong when I though it was universally loathed, when I read (one of) its topic(s) here, some time ago.

Depends on what is "basic gameplay" to you, Psikyo games have traditional controls but they have exciting enough first loops and very demanding second loops, so I'd hardly call them "basic" just because of the control scheme. Isn't the point of shmups to do demanding things with simple controls after all? On the other hand there are games with more gimmicky features but poor overall design, like Sol Divide.

[parodius]

Euroshmups were already mentionned, but more specifically : X2

[Squire Grooktook]

A game with strong aesthetics is never forgettable-a game with good gameplay but poor aesthetics tho is worthless

This is basically true..

Nah. Depends on what you're into, at least.

I'd totally play a stick figure STG if the gameplay did something special for me.

Oh wait I already do. (literally everything by Kenta Cho aka Vector Triangles Shooting At Eachother: The Game. Please, no one try to tell me that those games have any aesthetic value.)

then you have games that looked rough around the edges but played beautifully and nobody even talks about them anymore.

Like what? We've talked about every STG and arcade style game to death here, not all of which are particularly attractive. You're bound to be able to find some fans of pretty much anything but the most baron of kusoge here.

I mean fuck, Mars Matrix is almost universally considered ugly with its hideous pre-renders, and its probably one of the most memetic and well liked manic stg's around.

It's certainly been discussed and played enjoyably here more than Dragon's Lair, at any rate.

[PuToTyra]

A game with strong aesthetics is never forgettable-a game with good gameplay but poor aesthetics tho is worthless

This is basically true..

so many games are considered classics just because they looked pretty, but many of them had terrible gameplay or game breaking bugs that people just seem to overlooked. while not a shmup, I'd say Dragon's Lair was the epitome of this; 0 gameplay value, horrible to play in every sense, but 'beautiful' cartoon graphics = classic that still gets revised and released today.

then you have games that looked rough around the edges but played beautifully and nobody even talks about them anymore.

anyway, for the thread I'll nominate battle squadron, people seem to rave about it, I'm assuming based on looks, because it's a horrible game to play, and one of a handful of titles that put me off the genre for a good 10 - 15 years.

Aesthetic is not just looks! It's also the music, the charm, the characters, the plot, the style! Everything except actual gameplay and it's mechanics

I play games such as touhou pc-98 to death, while completely avoiding touhou games from th12 onward-even tho their gameplay is more polished, they don't have have the charm of the previous titles and don't even feel like touhou anymore!

Another example of well made game with terrible aesthetics is a touhou clone called"Jigoku kisetsukan" a game that got it's popularity from being on steam and being free. Gameplay wise there is nothing wrong with it, but the chiptune is so annoying I play it muted, the sprites and characters are disgusting and forgettable, there is no taste in it, no vision, nothing. It was a torture for me, to play it!

Then there is Exceed Gun Bullet Children which has a lot of issues gameplay wise-lack of scoreboard and replay among them-but it offers great music, well designed characters, edgy style that I adore and witty dialogue. It's actually my favorite game in Exceed franchise, even more so then well made but way too bland and touhou-like Exceed 3rd which is best for it's voice acting only, in my opinion.

Then there are games which are directed at fans-like acceleration of suguri, or strike witches bullet hell games, or other such. As a fan, I love playing them just for that-gameplay and technical issues are irrelevant.

[Squire Grooktook]

Aesthetic is not just looks! It's also the music, the charm, the characters, the plot, the style! Everything except actual gameplay and it's mechanics

I know that. And while a game that's poor in all those departments might be worthless to you, it's certainly not to me. If a game is particularly exciting to me, I have absolutely no problem using my imagination to compensate for aesthetic or story failings. So no, it's not worthless.

For example, if I were playing my favorite fighting game at evo grand finals, with all the aesthetics removed and replaced with stick figures...it would still be the hypest gaming moment of my life regardless. Too many emotions and too much excitement boiling over to notice visuals at that point. It's all about the drama between you and your real life opponent.

Of course, there are shit games that I like for the aesthetics as well (I file them into my "guilty pleasures" folder ), but the thought of turning down something FUN for such reasons is tragic and heartbreaking to me. I suppose this is just a pertinent issue for me in particular, because a lot of my favorite games ever don't actually connect to me aesthetically at all, and I end up falling back on the imagination rainbow... I guess I'm just really picky in that department.

I actually kinda of like eXceed's characters as well. I know, I'm a weeb. 2nd's cheesy yet memorable sass and eclectic soundtrack does more for me than any Touhou, though it's also one of my favorite stg's from a gameplay perspective.

[PuToTyra]

I actually kinda of like eXceed's characters as well. I know, I'm a weeb. 2nd's cheesy yet memorable sass and eclectic soundtrack does more for me than any Touhou, though it's also one of my favorite stg's from a gameplay perspective

I think Exceed2nd has good soundtrack. Dunno about the cheesy part....
However, to me, the first game has best ost.

For example, if I were playing my favorite fighting game at evo grand finals, with all the aesthetics removed and replaced with stick figures...it would still be the hypest gaming moment of my life regardless. Too many emotions and too much excitement boiling over to notice visuals at that point. It's all about the drama between you and your real life opponent.

Dunno about that, as far as danmaku games are concerned!

[Squire Grooktook]

The stage 3 boss dialogue makes me cringe a bit, but I'll give it eternal credit for having a final boss who's murder-suicide motivations are actually kind of unique and amusing, especially when even big budget jrpg's still struggle to come up with stuff better than "I wanna destroy the world cause nihilism lolz". Bravo, Flat.

Dunno about that, as far as danmaku games are concerned!

For me, it's absolutely the case. I play fighters and shmups for very similar reasons: Excitement. If the game is providing me unique and mentally engaging gameplay that simulates a particular fantasy well, then the aesthetic is at most a bonus. One that I can, as said, imagine and complete for myself if its found lacking.

In fact, in the age of ugly Cave-pre renders and often poorly drawn doujin sprites, I can honestly say that there are very few danmaku games where I actually like the aesthetic or visuals in the least. Doesn't stop me from having fun with them, though.

But that's just me :3

[Despatche]

This thread is objectively a terrible idea. It's just an "I don't like it" thread hiding under another name. Sheer preference has never been helpful.

Watch, but don't play...

Söldner-X (archetypal flashy euroshmup)
Ai Cho Aniki (muscle men with an amazing soundtrack)
Steel Empire (Victorian view of space)
Rayxamber III (competes with R-Type on visuals, but on gameplay, hell no)
Sol Divide (Harryhausen shmup)

Steel Empire's alright. Easy, sure.

Sol Divide gets too much flak, and entirely for one very specific part of gameplay: enemies have too much health for the easy dispatch you'd expect from this genre. It's not an overall system or level design failure, it just makes waves harder to fight and really requires that you use every trick you have.

Radirgy.

MileStone oughta be banned from this thread on principle.

Does Undertale count? Great music, its story and graphics are ok I guess, but I've seen it praised for its 'bullet hell' mechanics, but frankly the gameplay's shmup/dodging mechanics (as well as its RPG battle mechanics) are really basic. Some bosses have certain gimmicks, but I think of it as more of a visual novel, rather than a game focused on gameplay.

Yes, that's the point. If the battles were actually what they needed to be, it'd be an awful lot of work on the part of someone who we aren't even sure is good at the genre. Calling it a "visual novel" because it has somewhat easy battles by the standards of this forum is exactly why this thread is just plain insulting.

R-Type III
The Games Paradise
Layer Section
...

Guwange :3




Parodius series is pretty good gameplay wise (maybe even better than Gradius) but I gotta admit I always play them mostly for the A E S T H E T I C's

All of these choices are stellar games for their actual gameplay, except maybe R-Type III due to some specific balance issues.

Again, we really need to keep small balance issues out of a thread like this. "Weak gameplay" does not mean a few specific memes or dislike, personal or otherwise; tt means the game doesn't work well on a fundamental level.

[NebulasRay] has a similarly sleek style as Viper Phase 1, but is basically an unplayable mess.

Well, that's straight-up false. It's a brutal game, but there's nothing fundamentally broken about it.

Nominating Hellsinker, if it can clear the "strong aesthetic" hurdle

HellSinker is in the top 10 for best gameplay and best aesthetic in the entire genre, so I'm not sure where this is going.

Now Akashicverse, there's your broken game.

This many posts, and no Astebreed? What has the world come to...

Summa y'all gotta be trollin'.

These aren't "controversial" picks, they're outright wrong picks.

Gekirindan, pretty game with nice music but the gameplay feels uninspired with Compile-ish pace to me.

When will we ever just delete the word "uninspired"? It means absolutely nothing.

Please familiarize yourself with Compile games, which are typically significantly less interesting than even little old Gekirindan, for multiple reasons.

Is complexity what makes a shmup's gameplay good though? I like Guwange but it's mostly because I find the bullet cancelling very satisfying.

What makes gameplay good is whether or not it actually works on a basic level. Is the overall level design kinda worthless? Is the scoring broken? There are tons of great picks where one of these two things is true, such as Musha or Akashicverse.

gameplay-wise they're all really basic. "Hold A to charge an attack that consumes your power meter" is the deepest thing you can find there.

Dragon Blaze, the Gunbird series.

Mahou Daisakusen seems to fit the bill; really nice visually speaking, but the gameplay is somewhat basic.

Yes, it's a bit easy. It also comes together as a game really well and gets really interesting in loop 2. It completely redeems the poor showing that is Musha.

A game with strong aesthetics is never forgettable-a game with good gameplay but poor aesthetics tho is worthless

This would be how the genre died. Thanks, 'preciate it.

Man, we're not even two full pages in and someone's already thrown out Ikaruga unironically. Y'all people. Y'all.

I play games such as touhou pc-98 to death, while completely avoiding touhou games from th12 onward-even tho their gameplay is more polished, they don't have have the charm of the previous titles and don't even feel like touhou anymore!

Why in God's name do we have this fake nostalgia for the "aesthetic" of the tEoSD trilogy above anything later? We're not even talking gameplay, because the tEoSD trilogy gameplay is exceptional stuff that the later games don't quite match. No, we're talking about aeshetic and about characters.

It's like the Pokemon genwunners, except even worse, because the absolute majority of the Touhou fans behind this didn't play tEoSD as a ten year old back in 2002.

You guys have to understand that you can have all the opinion in the world, but when it's supported by verifiable bullshit, the opinion in question becomes incredibly shady.

[Squire Grooktook]

Patchy-Kun pls

At the risk of getting embroiled in a discussion I don't care about again...

"Weak gameplay" does not mean a few specific memes or dislike, personal or otherwise;

Perhaps this is my fault for not titling the thread better and more carefully explaining my thoughts. "personal dislike" is exactly what I meant and what I was hoping for.

Basically, I just wanted to know if people had any examples of games that spoke to them on an aesthetic level but not on a gameplay level. Thought it would be interesting way of finding some not entirely well known sprite work or sfx or anything else like that, since the aesthetic would have to speak to them a lot in order to make them play it despite not enjoying the gameplay.

Objective worth, or even the reasons people subjectively like or dislike the gameplay is not what I'm looking for here.