You really need to play Battle Garegga

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phase3
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Re: Battle Garegga is a work of sublime genus

Post by phase3 »

AxelMill wrote:It's not called "You really need to play Battle Garegga" - 4/10
I hope you will reassess your judgement on my title.

Seriously, though, I think that a title change should recontextualize things and help allow for more generalized discussion. Frankly, the title was beginning to annoy me as well.

Also, I find it a bit funny that this thread is the one that the few "detractors" (for lack of a better word) have decided to pick on for being just a load fan wanking, when the other Garegga thread is literally just a bunch of people getting hyped and feverishly gushing with excitement. That kind of stuff doesn't annoy me or anything, I just find it odd.

I hope to see even more debate and appreciation when REV 2016 sees release.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Square_Air »

For a second there I thought we might have had a reasonable discussion thread about Garegga and I started to get a little confused... but now it seems like that train has sailed. The balance has been restored once again.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by phase3 »

Square_Air wrote:For a second there I thought we might have had a reasonable discussion thread about Garegga and I started to get a little confused... but now it seems like that train has sailed. The balance has been restored once again.
I don't want to keep bumping the thread with so little to offer, but I feel like the thread still has some mileage. It's not unusual for a thread on any topic to have the odd needless digression, or for there to be the occasional spat. It's also not unusual for people to temporarily loose interest in something when they've read/written enough about it. It's worth noting that this thread has already slept for a several months, then came back to life after it bumped a couple days ago.

Just be patient.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Sumez »

Battle Garegga is a man-made nightmare
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Squire Grooktook »

And I can't wake up.

None of us can.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Shepardus »

The only way to wake up is to lower your rank.
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Re: Battle Garegga is a work of sublime genus

Post by AxelMill »

You forgot the last part
"Battle Garegga..."
I never got why the ellipsis are there, though. Did the one who said it die or are they repeating the same sentence over and over or...
w/e
rentalcar wrote:
AxelMill wrote:It's not called "You really need to play Battle Garegga" - 4/10
I hope you will reassess your judgement on my title.
Wha...
*Looks at his own quote*
*Looks at the name of the topic*
Why, thank you.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by BIL »

I think it's like Colonel Kurtz aka Bald Fat Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now. A forlorn resignation! The horror...
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Re: Battle Garegga is a work of sublime genus

Post by Sumez »

AxelMill wrote: I never got why the ellipsis are there, though. Did the one who said it die
Perhaps he was dictating
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Post by Cagar »

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Last edited by Cagar on Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by KevinDDR »

Wow this thread is a bit of a dumpster fire now but on the bright side...battlegareg.ga is now back up! :D
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by phase3 »

KevinDDR wrote:Wow this thread is a bit of a dumpster fire now but on the bright side...battlegareg.ga is now back up! :D
Excellent! You are doing the community a great service. Thanks for the good news!
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Roodwurm »

I bought the Saturn port for more than 200 EUR earlier this year and it's probably the one single game I would pay that amount of money for. It's one of those rare games where all the parts just seem to fit and exude awe inspiring excellence, and yes, let's not forget the stage design and overall aesthetics in that picture.

You could argue that Bakraid is easily as good and wonder why it doesn't possess the same legendary status and I guess it's because it isn't as outstanding in its art design and does not boast a dynamic difficulty system that is governed by that many minutiae (i.e. not being able to be analysed and broken down to the same extent). Plus it could never make as strong an impression as Garegga made, being the sort-of-sequel and released afterwards. Sort of like why R-type II isn't as revered as the original R-Type.

When you deeply love a game, any game, you could easily analyse it to the same degree and fawn over all details in the same manner that KevinDDR did on his site, but you have to wonder... why does Battle Garegga seem to inspire such analysis more than many other shooters? And don't be afraid to give the game and its designer credit in answering, rather than just mindless fans that parrot popular opinion.

Lastly, the concept of rank, even to the degrees of Garegga and Zanac, is at its core far from counter-intuitive: you play badly, the game goes easy on you - you play well, the game ups the challenge, ensuring you always get that level of friction to keep things tense. It's only at very high level play where things can get thrown out of whack and suiciding and other quaint tactics can come into play.

I'll stop typing here and go play some Garegga.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by CloudyMusic »

I'm not going to attempt to comment on why it has the reputation it does or why it has such a following, but here are my own reasons why it's probably my favorite shooter:
  • The option formation system is cool and really fun to use. A very high ceiling for tricks you can pull off with them.
  • 8 ships that are all unique, require different strategies, and fun to use in their own ways.
  • Scoring is very satisfying: surgical boss dismantling, medaling, hidden medal caches, stage 5 platforms, Black Heart 2.
  • The portion of your score that comes from medaling -- as well as the penalty for dropping your chain -- both feel really well-balanced.
  • The bosses are pretty much all just really fun to fight, whether scoring or not.
  • Lots of ways in which to customize your route: scoring targets, boss strats, autofire rate, powerup level, options, suicide planning, etc.
  • Art direction is cool, music is cool.
  • Relatively mistake-tolerant aside from a few crucial spots.
  • No time-based chaining. :wink:
My only real complaint would be the big scoring targets that are subject to larger RNG influence (birds, Mad Balls). The design of the rank system is interesting to study, for sure, but for the most part it's not really important for most people to think about it in that level of detail. Most of the stuff I've listed here is completely possible to appreciate without any rank knowledge beyond "don't pick up too many options, raise your autofire much, or stock too many lives."
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by trap15 »

Just some pedantic corrections, but generally agree with your post.
Roodwurm wrote:does not boast a dynamic difficulty system that is governed by that many minutiae (i.e. not being able to be analysed and broken down to the same extent).
Incorrect: http://daifukkat.su/strats/bakraid/system/ (forgive the broken formatting, guess I broke it at some point)
Roodwurm wrote:KevinDDR did on his site
Actually that's Noah!'s, Kevin just re-hosted it when Noah!'s site went down.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by ciox »

Rank and suicides are better in Bakraid if anything, there a lot more areas in the game where you can raise rank in a risk/reward manner for massive point gain by making more lucrative popcorn enemies appear, then you're walking a tight rope between having as much popcorn as possible and keeping big enemies from gaining so much HP that you can't easily chain them without tons of resources, the rank is also much more controllable if you know what you're doing.
Meanwhile suicides have new mechanics like your position on the screen determining how long it takes you to respawn, center of the screen is a quick respawn (to avoid dropping items) and corners are the slowest (to prolong the chain as much as possible) since it's tied to how quickly your debris leaves the screen.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Squire Grooktook »

"Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb."
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Roodwurm »

trap15 wrote:Just some pedantic corrections, but generally agree with your post.
No pedantery IMO, thanks for the corrections.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Xyga »

Bakraid lacks the visual and audible sexiness of most Raizing shooters, it's feeling rather generic compared to it's big bros.
Maybe just a remixed soundtrack with a future PS4 port could help that game reconquer the love it deserves.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Squire Grooktook »

I always put gameplay first with a philosophy that no matter what the audiovisuals are like, the gameplay will always tickle a special part of my brain that no other medium can.

That being said, aestheticly Bakraid suffers particularly for its contrast to Garegga's gorgeously melancholy diesalpunk world or Batriders colorful and quirky setting. If it was from a different franchise it might not get flak for that, but going from the first two thematically imaginative episodes to a rather barebones military shooting aesthetic is somewhat painful.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Xyga »

'Gameplay first' is what most people here will say, beause it's a gentlemen shmupper's club, yes, but as a general rule when you make a game if you want people to get curious enough so they play it, it's the visual and audio appeal that come first.
I'd guess Raizing lacked the time and means for polishing Bakraid's physical identity and make it shine as much as its big bros.
Personally the more time passes the more I value these aspects, there's a mystic to them that's as essential as the game mechanics IMHO, but I'm kind of an heretic on that topic so I won't say too much or this thread will derail. :P

PS: what is too bad as you say is that barebones military atmosphere it gives, it's a missed opportunity because it didn't need much to be as great as Garegga, frankly it's just as good technically speaking, even a bit crazier on the animation side.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Squire Grooktook »

There are certainly games which I don't like the gameplay in, but like playing for the aesthetic. It's just vice versa also applies. They both have the potential for magic, but I never feel valid discounting something for lack of one or the other.

Anyway agreed. The sprite work is certainly top notch. It's just the overall aesthetic and theme is lacking a distinct personality of its own. Feels like they tried to pass it off as Midway/Strikers homage or something, but it can't hold up to the soul of its brothers.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by ciox »

Bakraid's world does have some nice flavour to it though, they just didn't have time to develop it, let's see here:
- it takes place in a retrofuture world like Garegga where absolutely everything flies with propellers (it's more Garegga than Garegga in that aspect)
- has experimental "flying pancake" aircraft from the late 50s, to give a better feel that it's taking place after Garegga's time which was more 20s/30s/40s
- the whole conflict has the pretense of innocent war games where nobody gets hurt, which is why everything is bright and color-coded on both sides, convenient given earlier visibility critiques
- there's a deeply ironic note to the soundtrack, the pilots know they've been hired into the "airshow" simply to sucker-punch a conniving two-faced enemy planning an invasion, but the music stays very pompous and cinematic as if the show is STILL GOING ON AS PLANNED which it clearly is not once live ammunition starts flying

All that is for nothing though when you're so pressed for time you're forced to ship backgrounds that look like this..
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by phase3 »

Roodwurm wrote: why does Battle Garegga seem to inspire such analysis more than many other shooters?
I think one of the reasons why Garegga seems to attract such deep analysis is not only because it's fun to do stuff like that, but because Garegga so easily welcomes that sort of thinking by way of it's design merits. Let's consider what it may have been like in 1996 to play a few rounds for the first time, before we had access to many of the resources that we have today.
I imagine that when things like the special option formations were triggered seemingly randomly, without the ability to trigger it again on a whim, the seeds were planted for there to be some element of analysis right then and there, however casual it may be. I don't think it took anyone too terribly long to realize that the game had something subterranean going on that made the game different from most any game at the time. Our guides and the vast array of fan material exists because in many ways Garegga is a "shmupper's shmup." I think that Yagawa and crew knew how people who enjoy STGs think about and play them, and Garegga takes the expected core mechanics of your typical STG and rather post-modernly manages to both subvert them and use them simultaneously. It may not have been the creators intent for the game to be dissected and deconstructed in the way it has been, but it is the natural result of what's at it's core design philosophy.

I believe it's also the result of many years of working. Battle Garegga predates even Dodonpachi, people have had lots of time to mill over the myriad of moving parts the game has to understand them better. Battle Garegga may not be the only game of it's kind, but it was certainly one of the first, and one that still holds up as doing what it does exceptionally well.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by phase3 »

In addition to these things, I also feel that it's because there seems to be some mystery to what the game designers intended, and what may have would up being "happy accidents." Here something that strikes me as being a bit interesting about Bakraid:
ciox wrote:- there's a deeply ironic note to the soundtrack, the pilots know they've been hired into the "airshow" simply to sucker-punch a conniving two-faced enemy planning an invasion, but the music stays very pompous and cinematic as if the show is STILL GOING ON AS PLANNED which it clearly is not once live ammunition starts flying
This seemingly simple flavoring adds a very unusual sense of life and humor to an otherwise less stylistically rich game. There is something about the nature of this observation I find even more peculiar, and that's the fact that the game has managed to evoke enough imagination for ciox to detect irony, something I can't imagine most people would pull from any arcade game of any sort. As far as I'm concerned, that's brilliant. Putting aside the discussion here about the deliberateness of Garegga's rank system and its exploitability, there is also an element of interpretation vs. intention here, however in a completely different sense. I'm sure it goes without saying that all "art" (I only hesitate to say "art" because I detest the term, and it often seems that using it causes unrelated discussions to occur. Maybe we'll open that can of worms eventually, but not right now) is appreciated by the appreciators regardless of who made it and why. In this particular sense, the argument ceases to have merit from either side, as the "art" has affectively served it's "purpose."

There are moments in playing Garegga where everything I love about it emerges all at once, evoking the rare sensation that i'm a total badass and nothing can stop me. That bit in PLATEAU where the music drops and that tank rolls up on you from down the middle, firing out salvos of ammunition from every turret it has and you have to make a split-second decision of either quickly maneuvering your options around to take it out with normal fire, or bomb the damn thing into the ground stands among my favorite moments in any video game I've ever played. It gives me goosebumps every time. Can I say it was the creator's intention to give me the very specific sensation it inspires? Certainly not. In fact, I can't even say that moment should be particularly notable for other players. I can, without meaning to sound corny, say that it's a special thing for me. It's the kind of thing that makes me feel like I'm home, and I'm doing the thing I like to do most.
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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Bananamatic »

garegga is a thinking man's game
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Post by Cagar »

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Re: You really need to play Battle Garegga

Post by Squire Grooktook »

It's funny, I've never really had an issue with bullet visibility myself, for some reason.

The only milk I really do is vs Earth Crisis, and then only when I'm playing a character who can properly take advantage of it (ie Miyamoto, and I don't play him anymore). Closest other thing to a milk that I do is the st1 boss, but I don't really think of that as a milk because it's more about destroying all his parts, which you just barely have time to do with maximum finesse. It's the same with most of the other bosses, "milking" is like "can I break the necessary parts in time to have more then 5 seconds to milk before the boss dies or times out or I get killed?"

Also it helps that I really like the simple iconic elegance of Garegga's boss patterns. Everyone always talks about Blackheart of course, but I also love Satanic Surfers bullet spiral, Earth Crisis's space controlling cannons, Junkey Monkeys random flak + ever encroaching turrets and arms, etc.


RE: Bakraids setting/aesthetic

I actually had no idea about the "fake air show" story of Bakraid. I have to admit that's pretty creative and funny.

My only complaint, and where the aesthetic fails imo, is that it doesn't telegraph that in-game.

In Garegga and Batrider, you don't really need to know the backstory to get a feel for their settings. In Garegga you can see numerous times in the backgrounds how ecologically devastated and technologically dominated that diesal punk world is, and that combines with the music and everything else to really hammer in that warlike melancholy. Batrider's quirky-ness is apparent from the moment you enter the character select screen, and it only gets goofier with each setpiece.

Bakraid really just feels "oldschool military shooter". Maybe the out of control air show gone wrong aesthetic would come out in gamelpay better if it had crowds of spectators cheering on the combat in parts ala Shippu Mahou Daisakusen or other setpieces like that.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
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