Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BIL]

There's no excitement in stage 1 beyond the initial spectacle (which is, admittedly, pretty fucking spectacular). It's a pure memo test. Hold down shoot (EDIT: and keep a peashooter, since it's the best weapon for this sequence), walk forward, know where every sniper is, be sure to have your shots at the right angle in advance so you can kill them while still walking forward. If you don't know about the dogs, they kill you; if you do, they're a non-threat.

The peashooter... No, it's not the best option. Not the worst (that'd be Laser and its low firing rate), but nowhere as dominating as S+S.

The right angle? Er, you mean that enormous swathe of death I carve into the screen's upper-right quadrant here? OMG now that's some precision route engineering!

Here's my 4.5MB Animated GIF again, bitches! Eat it! Fuck!

Spoiler

OMG, SOMETIMES THE RNG MEANS YOU HAVE TO TURN AND SHOOT A RUNNER BEHIND YOU!! BRILLIANT!!

More bad advice, you're on a roll! No, you probably shouldn't turn around and shoot a runner behind you, you're a lot better off jump-downshotting them so you don't lose momentum. Losing momentum is what turns the snipers into a serious hazard, gets you clusterfucked, and then causes you to whine about the stage being a memory test. If you're going to use shitty tactics, yep, you're gonna have to painstakingly devise a house of cards and pray the crowd RNG doesn't knock it down. Have fun, I know I will correcting you. ;3

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm not saying you have to be an expert to comment on a game, but a little humility and more then 5 minutes spent dying because you don't know how to play should be necessary before you critique something authoritatively~

[BIL]

I try to take a "glass half-full" approach. Occasionally it can be fun to shoot fish in a barrel. :3

[Squire Grooktook]

Recent Steam convo excerpt with another farm member



Squire Grooktook: Oh and Battle Garegga
Squire Grooktook: surely you must realize that that game
[NAME EXPUNGED]: garegga... yeah maybe
Squire Grooktook: is beyond the limits of humanity
[NAME EXPUNGED]: so uh
[NAME EXPUNGED]: how does mvc2 fit in
Squire Grooktook: It is eternal
Squire Grooktook: it was created when mad scientists accidentally summoned the platonic form of "fun" into the material plane, and it collided with a piece software.
[NAME EXPUNGED]: i understand now
[NAME EXPUNGED]: obscura does negative hyperbole
[NAME EXPUNGED]: you do the positive
Squire Grooktook: Yes
Squire Grooktook: This is completely true

[Blinge]

spoilers: it was me

[Squire Grooktook]

The conspiracy unmasked.

[Skykid]

This thread has a lot of embarrassing statements in it. I think Obscura is going for some kind of record, although he still remains light years behind the impossibly bad taste of Obiwanshinobi.

There may be no person capable of claiming that spot.

[BIL]

I think it's bouncing along pretty nicely. I'm gonna be writing some more lengthy dispatches from the hellish battlefield of gaming collectors soon, so a little back and forth is a nice change of pace.

I've no choice but to torch objectively shitty advice, though. For the kids.

[Obscura]

Yeah that seems like the kind of quality and polish that a fan of Super Contra would enjoy~

I actually like Super Contra even though parts of it make me nauseous.

>Praises a game that has a bug which causes mashing the weapon-switch button to double your firing rate.
>Complains about other games lacking quality and polish.

...Yep.

I actually wasn't even aware of that glitch until just now, and I've 1cc'd hard in the past. Spread shot is useless in stage 1 without it. If you're willing to mash the shoulder buttons to double your firing rate with an obvious programming oversight, I guess it works. Why the fuck you'd ever want to play a game like that is beyond me.

[BIL]

Oh Obscura. It's not the shoulder button that lets you switch weapons. It's the X button. It's right next to the Y button. You can fire one of the two guns you're carrying, then the other. If you have two of the same gun, you can fire them in rapid alternation. This isn't a "bug," or "doubling the firing rate." It's basic arithmetic. Two of the same gun firing in concert will perform better than one. Revolutionary insight! You don't want to mash btw, you want a nice steady rhythm. Observe the switching weapon indicator in my GIF.

Why do you suppose I don't use S+S for the whole game, with this enormous double-firing advantage? Well, it's because double the advantage means double the disadvantage. This is why C+C is no free meal ticket despite being the unrivalled boss speedkiller. If you don't know how to work with its short range and long decay time, a crowd of smaller, weaker foes (as in st6 hive) will skullfuck you.

That Gunforce GIF is quality BTW! Unlike the game's hit detection.

It reminds me of this classic from Detana! Twinbee (AC):

Spoiler

[Obscura]

Yes, I'm sure it's entirely intentional that they spawned the player with an autofire weapon and made shooting an autofire for every weapon instead of just one, but then made you mash a different button to achieve full firing rate.

That seems perfectly plausible. "Let's get rid of mashing the shoot button" and "mash the weapon switch button for full firepower" are design ideas that are in perfect harmony with each other.

There's no way they just overlooked a bug that causes every weapon other than the machine gun to have twice the firing rate it's supposed to have, right? I mean, they must have wanted half of the bosses to go down before they even get a chance to attack!

(Oh, and the X button is actually even worse than a shoulder button, roflmao. Now claw grips are mandatory to cover all of the buttons that you have to be able to press constantly!)

(Also, typical Shmups forum. Complain about hitbox wobble. Then complain when hitboxes don't move when a sprite changes posture but doesn't move. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS ALREADY)

[BIL]

Given your established track record for stating utter bullshit as fact, I don't imagine you've got any developer commentary to back up your claims? Kidding! I know you don't.

Yes, I'm sure it's entirely intentional that they spawned the player with an autofire weapon and made shooting an autofire for every weapon instead of just one, but then made you mash a different button to achieve full firing rate.

Your premise is fundamentally incorrect. It's not the "full firing rate," it's 200% firing rate. Maths.

That seems perfectly plausible. "Let's get rid of mashing the shoot button" and "mash the weapon switch button for full firepower" are design ideas that are in perfect harmony with each other.

The game lets you freely mix and match weapons. At intermediate level it can be extremely useful, though an expert player with intimate knowledge of levels and patterns will likely gravitate towards the much riskier C+C and its speedkills. Try using C+C from a cold start and you'll get fucked even harder than you were by Hard a few pages back.

And again, you don't mash the switch button. Not unless you want all your shots to bunch up to the point you're getting single weapon firing rate, anyway. That'd be stupid, but fortunately also very tiring, so I can't see many doing it.

There's no way they just overlooked a bug that causes every weapon other than the machine gun to have twice the firing rate it's supposed to have, right? I mean, they must have wanted half of the bosses to go down before they even get a chance to attack!

The MG actually does gain 200% firing rate when deployed in concert, it's just completely impractical given the weapon's nature. You'd need to be a TASbot to fire one on every other frame consistently. Angry + dumb is a terrible look, Obscura. :[

(Oh, and the X button is actually even worse than a shoulder button, roflmao. Now claw grips are mandatory to cover all of the buttons that you have to be able to press constantly!)

I'm a very unremarkably-proportioned guy. I'm holding an SFC pad right now, my thumb sits pretty comfortably over B (jump) Y (shoot) and X (switch), while A (bomb) stays nicely out of the way. I guess if you have baby hands you've got a problem, but it's not like you need to hammer the switch button anyway.

I'd rather they'd just put one gun on each button, but the list of action games I feel that way about is legion (also, I imagine firing simultaneously would be a non-trivial concern from both balance and technical standpoints). Remap the controls in emulation if it's bothering you, by all means. I'm a hardware guy so it's not usually an option, but I'm planning to build some custom three-button FC pads for Batman and Gun-Dec etc.

(Also, typical Shmups forum. Complain about hitbox wobble. Then complain when hitboxes don't move when a sprite changes posture but doesn't move. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS ALREADY)

A character keeling over when a bullet hits the empty space surrounding them is a universal action game design fuckup. You'd have to be a retarded fanboy to excuse that.

[Volteccer_Jack]

**This is also why stage 1 is so much better than every other Contra stage 1. Making it through on hard requires a different reactive motion each time.

This is plainly false. You can clear it entirely without reacting to anything, provided you turn around to shoot left at pre-determined moments (and have the peashooter equipped because the spread gun actually makes this section harder LOL). You don't even have to look at the screen. Just turn left-right-left-right constantly whenever there's no sniper around and you are untouchable.
If I actually cared enough to memorize the dog locations I could do this blindfolded.
I particularly liked that part where a running guy did anything at all that had any chance whatsoever of killing me, because that part was a dream and Scarlett Johannson was watching and she was extremely impressed, and not like where you pretend to be impressed to make the other person feel good, she was honestly impressed.

Homing is actually the best weapon for the first half of stage 1 because it's the only way to safely remove the snipers without knowing beforehand their locations, at the cost of possibly needing to jump if a random zako gets off a shot, but with no snipers that shot won't matter. Homing is awful for everything else forever always though, so the peashooter is your next best bet. Spread gun provides no advantage against the snipers (the spread isn't wide enough to fire in the wrong direction and still hit them unless you do even more complicated shenanigans based on precognition and jumping), and thanks to CIII's idiotic "autofire" mechanic, picking up any weapon upgrade makes turning around more difficult, so that Spread makes this section more difficult than using the peashooter.

I don't know how you can possibly think this stage is better than Hard Stage 1 in Rebirth. Or even Normal Stage 1 in Rebirth.

When is that all important zako bullet that forces you to perilously jump or duck admist snipers and dogs gonna come?

NEVER. You turn left a moment before reaching the sniper to ensure a clear screen until you are past the sniper and free to turn left again, thus entirely eliminating the effect of the randomness. You are able to do this because you've memorized the locations of the snipers, the only enemies in the level that matter. Refer to the above video if you doubt me.

Since the snipers aren't much of a problem in isolation

They are. The screen is totally empty when you encounter the lone snipers in stage 3, and even so fighting them without either inching forward pathetically or using a memorization-based speedkill is still highly dangerous.

Losing momentum is what turns the snipers into a serious hazard,

No, not instantaneously killing them is what makes them a serious hazard, momentum has nothing to do with it, and if you don't kill them instantaneously, momentum is nothing but a liability.

At first I was stumped that you'd even bother braking for them

If, for example, you aim diagonally to take out the grenade-thrower, you get clusterfucked by the sniper. If you try to run under or jump over the sniper without killing it, you get clusterfucked by the sniper. If at any point while a sniper is on-screen you are firing in any direction other than directly toward the sniper (or god forbid, not firing at all), you get clusterfucked by the sniper. If you inch forward and fight everything from full-screen distance, you are almost completely safe. Inching forward pathetically is objectively the correct tactic here barring memorization of the sniper positions. Your choices to survive the snipers are A)cowardice, B)being lucky and firing in the correct direction by chance, or C)memorization.

I don't even mind, I just think it's outrageous to claim that this encourages aggression when it so obviously encourages cowardice.

chaotic

If you somehow managed to convince me that CIII actually was chaotic, that would be enough. But outside of the phenomenal stage 4 boss, the entire game is played mechanically.

III/Hard is more in line with relentless killers like Ninja Spirit and Daimakaimura.

No, because those two games are chaotic, dangerous thrillrides that require reactive improvisation and are optimally played aggressively. My entire argument here could be summed up as "Contra III is absolutely nothing like those two games."

[BIL]

All that video proves is that 1) there is indeed a hell of a lot of stuff coming at you from both sides in Hard/III st1, and 2) vibrating like a spastic will let you shoot it. Looks fun, congratulations.

I think you've a misapprehension that because it's possible to fearfully (or dementedly, in that latest video's case) creep through that section, the sort of storming run I or any other decent player will execute is somehow diminished. If anything, I'd say that's a pretty good tactical spectrum. Rush through murdering everything with S+S and downshotting the occasional tricky spawn... or do whatever it is you guys do that makes snipers something other than roadkill, and somehow actually makes M and H seem like superior options. I'd say have fun, but you and Obscura both sound utterly miserable and thoroughly beaten.

I get it's possible to play badly and still squeak through. Or play bizarrely and squeak through. This whole time I've argued it's a game that rewards excellence, not one that bars incompetence (not totally, anyway).

They are. The screen is totally empty when you encounter the lone snipers in stage 3, and even so fighting them without either inching forward pathetically or using a memorization-based speedkill is still highly dangerous.

Please do read my posts, Jack. :[

st3 opening snipers require specialised techniques every time, sure. st1's don't. Splatter them and enjoy the crowd mixup.

No, not instantaneously killing them is what makes them a serious hazard, momentum has nothing to do with it, and if you don't kill them instantaneously, momentum is nothing but a liability.

You can practically run past all but the one that's sat directly in your path (and thus will get instakilled by even a madly vibrating player). Stop trying to correct me and learn to play Normie, Jesus.

Now I'm wondering if you even read my commentary on the memorisation barrier inherent to Hard, my considering it a second loop, and my concession that it's still overly cruel even by that standard. I'm guessing you didn't, because immediately after:

If, for example, you aim diagonally to take out the grenade-thrower, you get clusterfucked by the sniper. If you try to run under or jump over the sniper without killing it, you get clusterfucked by the sniper. If at any point while a sniper is on-screen you are firing in any direction other than directly toward the sniper (or god forbid, not firing at all), you get clusterfucked by the sniper. If you inch forward and fight everything from full-screen distance, you are almost completely safe. Inching forward pathetically is objectively the correct tactic here barring memorization of the sniper positions. Your choices to survive the snipers are A)cowardice, B)being lucky and firing in the correct direction by chance, or C)memorization.

You make it sound like such a nightmare. You hold right, shoot and jump. If we were in some temporal anomaly that wiped each playthrough from our memories, I'd most definitely concede that creeping is the way to go. But it's not, and "hold right while shooting and jumping, like you probably did in Normal anyway" is about as benign as memorisation gets in this type of game.

I don't even mind, I just think it's outrageous to claim that this encourages aggression when it so obviously encourages cowardice.

If your reaction to III/Hard is cowardice, that's understandable. It's a hard game with a decided initial memo barrier and much risk of sudden death after that. My reaction was to attack it head-on and break it. I'm happy to report that it's a nasty fucker to keep under control no matter your experience level, unlike the other two Nakazatos.

If you somehow managed to convince me that CIII actually was chaotic, that would be enough. But outside of the phenomenal stage 4 boss, the entire game is played mechanically.

It is, really? Again, if you were to post a similar clip of yourself vibrating through the hive while frantically blanketing both sides of the screen in MG fire and killing each spawner as it appears, it would only prove 1) the game's runs indeed throw a hell of a lot of stuff out, and 2) it's possible to stagger along vibratingly madly while shooting it. You could probably play a lot of superb action games like a malfunctioning robot. Never really occurs to me.

No, because those two games are chaotic, dangerous thrillrides that require reactive improvisation and are optimally played aggressively. My entire argument here could be summed up as "Contra III is absolutely nothing like those two games."

This doesn't mean much from someone whose apparent mental image of st1's streets isn't a rampant killing frenzy but some creeping nightmare, and who never made it past the third stage. Trust me, as a non-vibrating no-misser of III/Hard and clearer of Ninja Spirit and Daimakaimura: III/Hard is optimally played aggressively, and it remains extremely volatile despite that. You could vibrate along through Ninja Spirit or Daimakaimura's first stages too, if you like. Oh no, these games aren't dangerous anymore!

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, once again, ignorance speaking.

I like Daimakaimura a lot too, but its intensity throughout is about the same as C3's first stage, and C3's more hectic later moments completely eclipse it. The zakos are generally a bit slower, and you could similarly nullify the reaction element of much of it with a...whatever the fuck you were trying to prove with that spastic jittering shit. Dear lord, that video was embarrassing

I mean fuck you could use that strategy to stay alive even easier in c1, super contra, c4, hardcorps...I'm not even sure what I'm reading anymore.

Now, Ninja Spirit. There's a game that might actually be as or more intense then C3. C3's alien lair opening zako rush is 100% on par with Ninja Spirit (and there's nothing in Daimakaimura that even approaches it), but NS might have an edge in intensity in general. That being said, NS's floaty moon gravity renders it a very different kind of experience from the laser fast, high gravity rush of any Contra. I love both games, and I feel they have similarly excellent design fundamentals throughout, but I grade them as appealing to and evoking different feelings with their mechanics.

[BIL]

Oh I'd put NS a tier above III/Hard, no question. From st3 onward that game is riveting at bare minimum. III/Hard has only isolated moments of harrowing intensity by comparison - of course, it really only has three brief bona-fide "run and gun" segments, and st3's is rather mild (mostly on account of lazy rollies replacing fast runners). Ninja Spirit is closer to Spartan X, 100% free-running action with no brakes. Until a certain late-game bed-shitting of course. :[

[Obscura]

There's no way you can "vibrate" through Ninja Spirit stage 1 (I tried when I was a total noob to the game). The monks in the third segment of stage 1 will absolutely wreck you if you try, and even the first part requires throwing in some jump + downstab into your vibration routine to take out floor-stabbers.

[BIL]

Yeah, you're right. Naginata up the ass (and I imagine a scythe, in Daimakaimura's case) would be a concern. I just hold right while bunnyhopping and firing through the monk bits, tbh. POW Shuriken with two shadows will tear everything apart, front above and back. It's a bit like demolishing III/Hard's streets with S+S actually.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'd say stage 1 of NS is about as volatile as stage 1 of Contra 3, or maybe even Daimakaimura. Personal experience, but IMO ninja spirit doesn't start heating up and going crazy till stage 3.

I do occasionally lose lives on the first stages of all these games though. They're all pretty great like that.

That being said, you could very likely "vibrate" through daimakaimura st1, and every other Contra title's first stage. So the point is still pretty bizarre and moot.

[BIL]

st3 is definitely where it hits serious mode. I find 3.1's field is pretty controllable with good POW chain use, and 3.2's marsh likewise responds well to bunnyhopping counter-aggressive POW sword... but holy fuck, the sense of encroaching doom on all sides is palpable.

st3 is one of my favourite sidescrolling things ever, at all levels. Down to the little dips and rises in the field that conjure the awful spectre of a twisted ankle and immediate hacking to death.

The giants' official English name (AFAIK) is rad as hell btw... "Ghost of Fugitive Warrior." Check out the "harakiri aborted" sword in the belly, Jebus.

Anyone else wish Ninja Spirit's second stage had done away with the floor at the midway point? I like to play as if it did... I think it'd have given st1->st2->st3 a more consistent curve. Most of the enemies (grenadiers, fire ghosts, wolves) are nowhere as threatening on the ground, and the otherwise trivial boss is way cooler when you've got to calculatedly let him charge the branch you're on while gracefully leaping away. Looks like something outta Ninja Scroll.

Pretty much the only thing I'd change in the first 7.1 stages.

[Sumez]

It's baffling to me how long you can argue back and forth whether Contra III is a good game At this point I can't tell if the insults flying across are still made jokingly.

Here's what I'll say, though - even if Jack's claims were all completely true, I don't think it changes a thing. Sure, it would negate some of the finer details that makes this game stand out, but he's saying absolutely nothing that dismisses the fact that The Contra III is not a great game. Hell, I've come across a lot of arguments about which is better out of HC and C3, but I don't think I've EVER seen anyone claim that either of these are bad games in any way, even while recognizing their flaws.

Let's just be thankful that the game exists, there's no denying it's a historical milestone in the genre whether you like it or not.
I'm ready for some Ninja Spirit now. This game keeps coming up here, and it's been stinking around in my PCE collection for too long, without ever seeing any action.

[BIL]

It's baffling to me how long you can argue back and forth whether Contra III is a good game At this point I can't tell if the insults flying across are still made jokingly.

I HATE JACK HE VIBRATES LIKE A FRIDGE (・｀W´・)

Naw it's not whether it's good, it's whether it's weak or intense. A semantic minefield. It's important to give common mainstream darlings a good going-over, I believe.

[Squire Grooktook]

I hope Vibrator forever becomes a new insult on shmups farm.

[BIL]

The Theme of Vibrator

[Squire Grooktook]

SPECIAL GUEST BILL RIZER VS MOTORHEAD

[BIL]

Redemption. edit: the dogs' double-takes at Bill vibrating madly in the street to the raunchy three-piece boogie are the best... *VIBRATING INTENSELY*

God I needed a laugh. Good show, both of you.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I like Daimakaimura a lot too, but its intensity throughout is about the same as C3's first stage

Well if your definition of intensity is "there are a lot of sprites on the screen", then we've been having two different arguments this entire time.

I think you've a misapprehension that because it's possible to fearfully (or dementedly, in that latest video's case) creep through that section, the sort of storming run I or any other decent player will execute is somehow diminished.

The whole basis that Contra III is special here was that in every other Contra game you can just sit back and cowardly kill stuff with lame tactics in total safety, whereas Contra III is supposed to be entirely different and all about aggression and shit. And I'm like "No it's exactly the same as every other Contra game, it is atypical only in being very short."

Apparently you guys are scared shitless just watching a video of me playing the stage, unable to take your eyes off the sides of the screen. But at the same time, a mindless simple tactic which completely eliminates that terrifying threat only inspires mockery. So like, sure, whatever.

BTW the tactic of intermittently covering your back without even paying attention is thwarted by stage 2 of Ninja Spirit, while spamming the sword-shield takes you safely to stage 4. Regardless, the greater number, variety, and speed of the enemies in Ninja Spirit means that dealing with the waves of fodder is involving and fun in its own right, and is in fact core to the action. As opposed to Contra III where it's just a thing you do because there's a slight chance of a shooty guy spawning and any other response entails unnecessary risk.

[Squire Grooktook]

Less intense in that things in Daimakaimura come at you slower, in smaller numbers, and with more telegraphing. A stray bullet and the jump it forces are far more quick then keeping the stage 1 reapers in dai at bay. The "bloody jitterbug" vibrator tactic would slaughter that games first stage to an even more frustrating degree. Playing both stages quickly and gracefully though, Contra 3 shines above Dai with its faster move speed and greater swathe of enemies and platforms to flow through.

And believe me, I love Dai. I put it in the same tier as C3 and Ninja Spirit, above all other run and guns. But what it makes up for with its more omnipresent chaos, is slightly less intensity. It's greatest moments are not as speedy or as challenging as c3's peaks.

The whole basis that Contra III is special here was that in every other Contra game you can just sit back and cowardly kill stuff with lame tactics in total safety, whereas Contra III is supposed to be entirely different and all about aggression and shit. And I'm like "No it's exactly the same as every other Contra game, it is atypical only in being very short.

Okay, I'll give. I was wrong. Quick aggression isn't the only way to clear that stage. So I'll amend my point: the ratio is skewed much better in C3's case towards aggression.

The strategy me and bil use in our 1lc's takes half the time, half the input, and results in a twitchy random dodging experience that's excellent fun to maintain forward momentum during. This is compared to a creeping strategy which takes forever for a small measure of extra safety in a stage that has no risk anyway due to being 1 minute away from the title screen.

Contra 4 however, dashing through several of the turret and sniper encampments would be nearly twice as hard, and even for an "authoritative player" would seem needlessly risky. Even so, I wouldn't say they're "totally different". C4's first stage does have one setpiece that I think has a similarly nice sense of pressure, and the runners do force you to watch yourself, but I put it a notch below overall due to the slower zakos and a slightly stop/start sniper/turret nest near the end.

But at the same time, a mindless simple tactic which completely eliminates that terrifying threat only inspires mockery. So like, sure, whatever.

I think you fail to comprehend how stupid looking that tactic was. Embarrassment is the real terror.

[Durandal]

I like Daimakaimura a lot too, but its intensity throughout is about the same as C3's first stage

Well if your definition of intensity is "there are a lot of sprites on the screen", then we've been having two different arguments this entire time.

I think you've a misapprehension that because it's possible to fearfully (or dementedly, in that latest video's case) creep through that section, the sort of storming run I or any other decent player will execute is somehow diminished.

The whole basis that Contra III is special here was that in every other Contra game you can just sit back and cowardly kill stuff with lame tactics in total safety, whereas Contra III is supposed to be entirely different and all about aggression and shit. And I'm like "No it's exactly the same as every other Contra game, it is atypical only in being very short."

Apparently you guys are scared shitless just watching a video of me playing the stage, unable to take your eyes off the sides of the screen. But at the same time, a mindless simple tactic which completely eliminates that terrifying threat only inspires mockery. So like, sure, whatever.

BTW the tactic of intermittently covering your back without even paying attention is thwarted by stage 2 of Ninja Spirit, while spamming the sword-shield takes you safely to stage 4. Regardless, the greater number, variety, and speed of the enemies in Ninja Spirit means that dealing with the waves of fodder is involving and fun in its own right, and is in fact core to the action. As opposed to Contra III where it's just a thing you do because there's a slight chance of a shooty guy spawning and any other response entails unnecessary risk.

This reminds me of a conversation I earlier had with someone who claimed older first-person shooters like Doom were too easy because you could backtrack and lead all enemies into your chainsaw deathtrap infinitely for as long as the levels allowed it, because it is the safest and most ammo/health conservative tactic to use, as the game in no way encourages you to do otherwise, whatever that means. You COULD spam the same combo in a brawler over and over in order to survive and you COULD camp in a corner and you COULD bombspam your way to victory and you COULD hold down the whip button in SCIV to stunlock an enemy to death and you COULD spam hadoukens and you COULD hide behind the same piece of cover in TNO to pop nazi skulls etc etc, as there is no scoring system or developer interview which tells or encourages you otherwise.

In Contra 3, there's nothing exactly preventing you from playing ultra-defensive and neither is there anything which encourages you to play ultra-offensive. What might be 'this enemy encourages me to play defensively' to you is 'this enemy encourages me to take risks' for another. The riskier it is, the more rewarding it is to defeat that challenge. Perhaps you lack incentive to do so because there is no real scoring going on, but hey, it lets you live another day, and you can proudly wear that 1cc on your belt. Don't be surprised when people call you a scrub for doing so, most people prefer watching more skillful displays of offensive playstyles over turtling. Who enjoys watching a projectile spam fighting match?

[Squire Grooktook]

Durandal you make a good point about subjective viewpoints, and I think that's an unassailable mountain we'll seen be reaching if this keeps up:

Simply put, I like a lot of things in Contra 3. I like the slightly faster move speed on the player character in Contra 3. I like that zakos move faster two (and spawn faster). I like jumping over the dog while shooting downward and landing in between random bullets with slightly different timings each time. I like jumping up on the platforms to artfully blast the gunwall. I like that I can, with good reactions, never let go of forward no matter what the rng does, and also feel like I'm not playing sup-optimally or considerably more risky either.I like the fresh breath of platforming after all that combat. I like a lot of things in the following stages, though I won't wall of text. Balance of platforming vs combat, placement of rng, variety between different types of hazards, risk/reward elements, forward momentum, etc. etc.

I like the other games too, but they have a lot more things which don't appeal to me. I almost like Hardcorps intro stage as much, but it's run and gun sequence is shorter, and it's book-ended by an awful 30 seconds of nothing vs the cyclops. I almost like Contra 4's as much, but the slower and more ineffectual runner zakos put it a notch below. Contra 1's stage 1 is a classic and also perfect in its own way, but it's a lot easier and a bit slower. Super Contra is a rickety kusoge with good level design hamstrung by fundamentally awful controls. etc. etc.

Others might not get that stuff...and that's cool! To each their own! I totally understand that others might interpret things differently or have different tastes or preferences. But pretty soon we're going to be reaching a point where there's nothing left to analyze and the conversation degrades into "I like thing!" vs "I don't like thing!"


Also to be fair, there is no choice but a push on the final stage.