Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Squire Grooktook]

Hahaaa, it's Black Sabbath's Disturbing The Priest and you truly are a man after my own heart. When I get a bit tipsy/caffeinated and blast ye olde rock/metal, some of those lovably preposterous lyrics really jump out at me.

LET'S
TRY
GETTING TO THE SKY!
HANG ON OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE!

Ha ha, given your signature traditions, my mind was scrambling for obscure bits of engrish it could be sampled from. Sabbath never crossed my mind lol.

On that note, I'm using Granada's intro text as my bio on another forum right now :3

Also, come to think of it, I think Contra 3 was a formative game for me. I think it may very well be the game that formed my love of the arcade "gauntlet" philosophy of "punishment for failure = excitement". The heart dislodging thrill of trying to trigger the TLB as a kid was probably the beginning of my love for that kind of gaming experience.

Oh yeah slave beast taka represent

[BIL]

Granada's prologue, now that is soulful Engrish. Continent. Ghosts. Call. Only those who have seen. God. War. Truth. Somebody....

Definitely some good alchemic Engrish mojo on that project. ;-;7 Ultimately all about the earnest over-reach, I believe.

Spoiler

That ad blurb was bang-on too. It's good enough for Contra III even! :O

This game is profound and will always be new.

[Squire Grooktook]

Similarly fond of Esp Ra.De's mournfully hot blooded final stage opener

DESPERATE CRIES ECHO

THE SCREAM OF ANGER SHAKES THE EARTH

AND YOU DISCOVER THAT IT CAME FROM YOUR SOUL

[BIL]

Ah, Contra III/Hard st4 boss. Masterpiece. ¦3

Was doing a bit of mild research with my replay, because at the time I was a little sharper than right now (I love action games with this sort of "training response..." Gun.Smoke is another that'll make you go "wtf, I could do that?" after a few months away! and yeah, soon enough you'll be doing it again!).

Have to say, C+C is genuinely the superior choice for this boss. Lack of range sounds rough, but besides high DPS, it has an enormously helpful attribute: long decay time. I noticed I was timing my bursts so they'd not directly hit the target, but instead detonate just in front as the ship moved forward into the pulverising cloud. Meanwhile, shots launched, I'd be free to focus on evasion/repositioning. Movement untethered from attacking = valuable brain cycles freed up!

Regarding survival - with the unstable environment, it's critical you're always thinking a couple moves ahead. Sounds trite, but the nastiest rug-pulling sudden deaths will sneak up on you in the preceding seconds. A friendly missile nearing its limits just as the boss steams forward to prematurely smash it... or a boss projectile selecting the missile you've committed a leap to, your handhold vanishing on contact. The relatively infrequent turret salvos aside, most of this boss's killing methods are designed to emerge, recede from immediate concern for a sec, and then *BOOM* blindside you in the chaos.

It's still one mean SOB, and the game's most sustained RNG terror, but recalling this stuff definitely gave me a vital half-second's edge over those awful "FUCK! HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED TO ME :[ " sudden deaths!

TLDR:

Spoiler

;3

[Sumez]

Isn't Bucky O'Hare the only Konami game that has any actual trace of an actual constellation of Treasure people working on it? :3
I remember back in the days when everyone would say Treasure was all the people who made all the original Castlevania and Contra games
Oh and Axelay, and also a bunch of Konami games that came out after Gunstar Heroes.

[trap15]

Norio Hanzawa worked on it too!

Explains the rad music, at least.

[BIL]

Isn't Bucky O'Hare the only Konami game that has any actual trace of an actual constellation of Treasure people working on it? :3
I remember back in the days when everyone would say Treasure was all the people who made all the original Castlevania and Contra games
Oh and Axelay, and also a bunch of Konami games that came out after Gunstar Heroes.

The Konami/Treasure thing is far more fragmentary than conventional wisdom suggests, yeah - certainly back then. It's not like "THE TREASURE TEAM" was this monolithic unit that took off one day for greener pastures. Ages ago, I remember someone on a random GameFAQs board calling Hard Corps "Contra in a post-Gunstar world" and my blindly accepting this. WTF? More like Contra in a post-Contra III world.

Norio Hanzawa worked on it too!

Explains the rad music, at least.

Indeed! NON is good people.

[trap15]

It's not like "THE TREASURE TEAM" was this monolithic unit that took off one day for greener pastures.

On the other hand, it sure seems like THE NAZCA TEAM was

[BIL]

I was totally going to say Nazca's a much clearer example of such a thing, but chickened out at the last sec.

[Sumez]

I don't think I follow you there. Hard Corps is DEFINITELY Contra in a post-Gunstar world! I don't think there's any doubt Konami took a lot of cues from that game when they made Hard Corps, wanting to rival (and IMO outclass) its insane bossrush nature of technically impressive multi-jointed bosses. It even has a (really shitty, admittedly) Seven Force wannabe.

[BIL]

Oh no, I absolutely believe Treasure influenced Konami in turn. What I mean is, though, the basis of that particular game style is apparent in Contra III and I'd argue Bucky O'Hare. By III it's already obvious setpieces and minibosses are heavily in vogue, with free running stage design no longer the basis but one mode of action among many. Gunstar cranked this further along towards its logical conclusion in Alien Soldier.

[Sumez]

I don't know. I still feel like Hard Corps has a decidedly different feel than Contra 3, and is much closer to Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier, and eventually Shin Contra. It's not just the focus on bosses, but the gamplay, and the design and flow of the action.

[BIL]

I don't think Gunstar/Alien Soldier and Hard Corps/Shin Contra play much alike, tbh. They clearly share the boss-centric format, but beyond the broadest "run and gun" terms they handle totally differently. The former are pushy, visceral, honestly kind of messy (within reason!) games, especially in their respective CQC and bullet-cancelling mechanics. HC and Shin maintain Contra III's demand for surgically precise movement and shooting at pretty much all times, with zero tolerance for enemy contact and relatively conservative weapons.

I'd say Silhouette Mirage plays more like the former, really. A midpoint between the two camps might be Metal Slug, where you're free to dive deep into the scrum slashing and gashing, and your weapons are raucously large-bore (press a button - oh look, five guys just got shredded to gristle!), but a tiny lapse will kill you with shocking abruptness.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah I might even say Gunstar feels less like either Contra than Alien Soldier does. The limited air movement and grappling makes it feel closer to a Metal Slug then anything, and even that's a far out comparison.

[Sumez]

Okay, ditch what I said about controls, it wasn't really thought through, but I still feel Hard Corps took the series in a very different direction than what Contra 3 was doing. I'm not saying it's not awesome in its own right.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'd agree with BIL that it was all part of a steady, gradual evolution in that direction. Hardcorps took it further, but I think Contra 3 was pointing in that general direction too. Hardcorps was part of a linear escalation of the idea, not a side turn. You can see that influence and evolution of style in other games of the time too.

An analogy I might make is that it's similar to the gradual turn towards bullet hell in the mid 90's, where the ideas of denser and more elaborate bullet patterns and smaller hitboxes were being kicked around to different degrees by lots of different developers, but it didn't get fully codified and taken to its conclusion till Batsuugan Special and Dodonpachi more or less officially birthed the sub-genre.

[BIL]

I'm not saying it's not awesome in its own right.

It's all good, just don't say "Contra Spirits" or "The Hard Corps" or we'll bang you up on elitism charges

[Sumez]

I'd agree with BIL that it was all part of a steady, gradual evolution in that direction. Hardcorps took it further, but I think Contra 3 was pointing in that general direction too. Hardcorps was part of a linear escalation of the idea, not a side turn. You can see that influence and evolution of style in other games of the time too.

I'm still not really convinced. I feel like you could have "easily" made a game in the style of The Contra III without the overhead levels, less running and gunning, thrown in a ton more boss gauntlets, and it would still feel a lot more like The Contra III than Hard Corps.

Case in point: Almost every pattern to any boss in Hard Corps has a safe spot, and the few that don't have a really simple input that you have to perform in order to dodge. Only real exception to this rule is a few of the bosses on the final stages for most routes.
There's pretty much nothing like this to ANY boss in The Contra III. On the back of my head I can only think of the long legged chicken bot and the helicopter grapply hook sword guy, who play sort of like Hard Corps bosses.

Tank guy on stage 1 doesn't count as a boss. He was put into the game by mistake.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think you're describing the flaws in Hardcorps more than any intended style :3 Alien Soldier might not be as rip roaringly intense as c3 (though what games are? Ninja Spirit and Daimakaimura are the only that come to mind tbh), but its bosses are better balanced and thought out than Hardcorp's lesser moments* IMO.

I'd attribute the safe spot issues to the lack of balancing brought on by the multiple route/character dimension of the game. The same could be said of its character roster. I can see Browny being intended to be the "easy modo" character, but Fang's boss busting shenanigans seem more likely a result of poor playtesting than anything else. I'd wager he was ironically intended to be the difficult to master character lol.


*Note I do love Hardcorps, and at its best it can stand toe to toe with C3 and the rest. Dr. Crabs, Claw Bahamut, and other bosses depending on the character come to mind. It's intensity just isn't as omnipresent.

[Sumez]

I think it's harsh to call it flaws. The game still requires you to be on your toes most of the time, if you don't wanna fail. It's a relatively long game, and mistakes are fatal, so in a way it's fair that it's not as absolutely intense at all times as The Contra III. It's a different style alright, and I think it's fair to criticize it just as you can criticize Shin Contra for just about the exact same things, but I don't think it's all unintended. It's far from an easy game, after all.

And I guess we should continue this in the "Ninja Gaiden thread", I completely forgot we were still in the Bloodstained one.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think it's harsh to call it flaws. The game still requires you to be on your toes most of the time, if you don't wanna fail. It's a relatively long game, and mistakes are fatal, so in a way it's fair that it's not as absolutely intense at all times as The Contra III. It's a different style alright, and I think it's fair to criticize it just as you can criticize Shin Contra for just about the exact same things, but I don't think it's all unintended.

And I guess we should continue this in the "Ninja Gaiden thread", I completely forgot we were still in the Bloodstained one.

Well, flaws are subjective after all. I personally consider Hardcorps safe spots and easy patterns flaws, though some may enjoy the dance like choreography.

However, there are certain spots where I think a lack of polish genuinely shows. For example, the nearly useless "prey for mah experiments" boss fight, where you can literally stand to the side while holding fire and survive for nearly 30+ seconds. Or the 15 seconds of standing in the center of the screen on the stage 1 midboss. Or the lengthy dead eye joe climbing up the elevator shafts segment at the end of the jungle stage, etc. I think there are some spots that would have been different with more time and polish, though we can't know for sure what was going on in there heads.

There are also times that the game rivals c3's rng chaos. The deadly, unpredictable Claw Bahamut, Dr. Crabs, and Alien Mother fight come to mind. Hardcorps does have moments that are cut from the same cloth as C3, they're just not as widespread imo. Just like C3 does have a few purely "safe" pattern based bosses like the chickenwalker and blade man on stage 4.

[BIL]

Following Sumez+Squire's lead and continuing from page 9 of the Bloodstained thread. however it's past bedtime and my brain is shutting down, so apologies if I'm repeating or ignoring anyone. ;3

Have to agree with Squire. Hard Corps and Shin Contra are very much The Contra III's direct followups, and at their absolute best they rival its stratospheric peaks of stage+boss design (like that crazy baldhead fuck DR. CRAB / relic's Jellyfish Form). But they are a step down overall. TCIII does have tiny dings (st1 tanky wanky who never learned how to u-turn at tank school, and honestly, there's not a lot going on for much of st4's battleship underpass - outside of the fun gymnastic kamikaze troupe, I think Shin Contra's is superior, actually). But they're so minor and brief, and the game is so goddamn intense, they almost feel more like breathers. HC and Shin drop the ball more often, however, and harder when they do (FUCKING JUNGLE BOSS / WTF @ MISSION 2 BIKERS). Both HC and SC are capable of nervily intense RNG showdowns, there's just far fewer of them and a lot more rote static.

All in relative terms mind, I love all these games and continue to play the hell out of all three. I just want them to do well that's all. 3;

And I guess we should continue this in the "Ninja Gaiden thread", I completely forgot we were still in the Bloodstained one.

Good idea! I was gonna ask if a mod could ctrl+v Page 9 into the Big Time Ryukenden Fun Club, but as its current proprietor I didn't wanna seem pompous. ¦3 edit: PMd Mr.Bulletmagnet so we'll see. Will just link back from here otherwise.

[Sumez]

Well, that's all I have. Whatever you feel, I can't shake the heavy Gunstar Heroes vibes from Hard Corps that felt evident to me from the very first time I played it.

[Squire Grooktook]

To each his own ^_^

I gotta say I have a weird relationship with Hardcorps. Every time I talk about it, I can't help but bring up all the things imperfections I notice about it. But I really, really do love it and have a great time whenever I replay it. It's best moments and overall play are just that good, mishaps aside.

[Sumez]

It's just an awesome experience altogether. I tend to see it top the "BEST CONTRA GAMEZZ" lists mostly because it has people swayed by amazing setpieces its nature of constantly throwing new things in your face, and the common misconception that adding branched paths and multiple characters has something to do with the concept of replayability.

I can do with the "choreographed" boss fights, I love that kinda stuff actually, I'm a Castlevania fan after all. But man that game would be so amazing if they had removed all the downtime. It would be such a simple fix, too. Make it possible to skip all the dialogue, ESPECIALLY mission briefings, throw some enemies into the downtime spots (such as the big robot's introduction), and cut the fuck out of the entirety of the travel segments between each form of the "seven force" boss. And maybe pour a lot more HP into the doctor's "experiements".
Fortunately, this is exactly what The Shin Contra is. It's beyond me why so many people think it's a bad game.

[Squire Grooktook]

Shin Contra/Shattered Soldier generally seems well regarded to me. At least, as well regarded as any one game in the series can be (opinions always devided).

I haven't played Shin in a long time (and I think I never actually 1cc'd the tlb), but I do agree that it feels like a leaner, more polished Hardcorps. It does lose some of the energy of Hardcorps though, and I think it might have even less rng chaos bosses, sadly. Still a favorite none the less, but I think I might actually put Hardcorps a tiny bit higher. Greater highs, greater lows

[Shoryukev]

Well, that's all I have. Whatever you feel, I can't shake the heavy Gunstar Heroes vibes from Hard Corps that felt evident to me from the very first time I played it.

I've never played Hard Corps (trying to remedy that), but I don't see a Gunstar Heroes vibe as being a bad thing...that's one of my favorite games for the Genesis.

[Sumez]

It was never even implied to be a bad thing!
That said, I like Hard Corps much more than Gunstar Heroes.

[Shoryukev]

It was never even implied to be a bad thing!
That said, I like Hard Corps much more than Gunstar Heroes.

Sounds like I need to try harder to track down a copy of Hard Corps!

[Sumez]

Shin Contra/Shattered Soldier generally seems well regarded to me. At least, as well regarded as any one game in the series can be (opinions always devided).

Maybe things have changed, or maybe it just depends on who you're talking to. But when The Shattered Soldier came out, everyone was either whining about
1: The extreme difficulty (which I can only take as an indication that these people never really tried, it came out at a time where people were getting comfortable with their games not trying to stop them from winning any more - I always felt that The Shattered Soldier was by far the easiest game in the series)
2: The memorization aspect.

While memorization is a bad term to use, as I wouldn't use it unless a game REQUIRES memorization - I don't think The Shattered Soldier does that anywhere, in fact the bosses are really good at telegraphing their attacks all the way through, but this stuff is really difficult to judge when you know a game too well.
But it's true that you can basically teach yourself how to deal with every situation and pattern, much like Hard Corps, and play through safely almost without worrying about any kind of RNG. But that's also true of Hard Corps, and honestly just about every Contra game apart from Contra 3 on Hard.
The best criticism I have seen is someone lamenting that playing the game felt less like playing an action game and more like following an instruction manual, basically going along a set path and doing just what the game wants you to all the time, instead of fighting for your life.
I can see where he's coming from even if it's a bit squarely put, but I think it's a matter of taste, and if you don't like that stuff there's a ton of stuff you wouldn't like about any Contra game, especially Hard Corps. A thing I like about Shattered Soldier is that I feel anyone can beat the game as long as they put some time into it, and in retrospect, that's probably also why so many people consider Hard Corps their favourite, as it shares that aspect.
But almost every time I've been discussing The Shattered Soldier, someone has been criticizing it based on this, rather than considering it a matter of taste - to the level where several people I know who I would consider having a really great taste in games, feel that it is not just a weak Contra game, but a very bad game altogether. I'm glad to see people around here giving it some more respect.

I might actually put Hardcorps a tiny bit higher. Greater highs, greater lows

The highs in The Shattered Soldier are insanely high! IMO much higher than anything in Hard Corps. Though I am willing to admit that it has mostly to do with setpieces and presentation, rather than gameplay. But I would say that so does Hard Corps.

Sounds like I need to try harder to track down a copy of Hard Corps!

I feel that anyone who don't own the game should. You'll be fine with a US copy - the Japanese one is insanely expensive, and the life bar is for wussies.