You really need to play Battle Garegga

[Shepardus]

Yeah, I agree with you on that. If anything, people should be arguing that more about Batrider than Garegga - its design feels a lot less "accidental" to me.

[Eaglet]

The only part of BH2 that you have to lay off on shooting with Bornnam is during the Vulcan sway. As to not kill him too early.
All other instances are ones you will experience as he is much harder to kill without a piercing shot.

What my point was is simply that everything you do during a Bornnam run is stuff that was obviously designed to be performed.

[phase3]

The point is that claiming that "OMG, all of these things were designed like this on purpose, YGW is genius!" is dumb.

Just to make sure my position is clear as someone who hasn't played the game nearly as much as many of you have, I can't say what elements of the game are or are not purposefully implemented mechanics. I am perceptive enough to notice that playing Battle Garegga is a far deeper experience than i'm used to, and that the game has gotten me to consider how I play shmups in general. I don't consider myself apart of the Yagawa cult or whatever, but I should be able to notice when something is new, and perhaps even brilliant.

[Xyga]

Brilliance sometimes blooms in the midst of the swamps of randomness and mistakes.
Won't happen in any of those swamp though, some create good ecosystems, some (many) just stink...
Guess in what type the YGW lotus had its roots ?

[chum]

You'll end up with roughly the same ranks every run anyway if you have a strategy... I find the rank aspect pretty overhyped. Fascinating at first, but you're just going to go through the motions with it eventually, so... ofc it does add an additional element of difficulty as you do want to the rank to go higher for a higher score, and although i don't know the specifics, surely there's a sense of ambiguity there in just how far you "should" go, depending on the ship and routes.

Fascinating in theory but gets stale in practice, that's just how I felt about the game in general. The levels or bosses aren't as well designed as people say in my opinion because the pacing and gameplay is just so damn slow, last two stages not included. Stage 6 is awesome. Rank aside, other mechanics can be pretty annoying. The milks mostly just bog down the flow and makes it a chore to play. Tick milking is crap. The only remotely fun milk I can remember is the stage 6 boss one, and playing on MAME makes that a chore as well thanks to the input lag not allowing you to play as well as you otherwise would've been able to. I've heard the PCB lags too so I guess everyone's fucked except console players?

It's objectively a great game at least for casual playing (I won't deny there's a great dynamic between the rank, resource system and scoring system, and then there's the aesthetics) but I do not enjoy score-playing it whatsoever, and I do not understand why people pick it over Buttrider, at least not when accounting for the gameplay only. It's just so slow and unsatisfying and with the input lag you feel handicapped when playing. It was a miracle that I managed to anything at all in Buttrider with its equally horrible input lag. I do not think I want to play either of them ever again unless I can do it with minimal lag. Raizing gameplay isn't the most challenging (in terms of difficult and complicated inputs, reading, dodging, strategies, etc) outside of a few key areas anyway like high rank GlowSquid in BG but input lag at this level is just a big no-no regardless because you will make more mistakes, you will fear the tougher strategies, it just feels wrong, etc

The status quo is "game is masterpiece" so this is just a different take on it to offer some perspective. I don't dislike it or anything, I used to think very highly of it and can still sympathize with the opinion I used to hold, even if I've now let go of it. I'd say there is a masterpiece in there somewhere that might reveal itself with some tweaking, but the game as it has a lot of questionable elements... Though they say one man's trash is another man's treasure. I say stage 2 is boring but someone else might say it's exciting.

rentalcar, not to say you are wrong in your opinions, but you might be surprised at the level of depth and quality that also exists in many other shooters, even if they do not use a dynamic rank system. This might sound condescending but I'm directing this to anyone that might happen to read this. BG has been analyzed to death around here, now try observing and analyzing something else to the same degree (not as easy since you'll have to work harder for it when fewer people relay the information to you) and you will find that there's a lot to fawn over besides this one game. None of my favorites are farm-favorites, but I will defend their enormous quality to the death. Remember that practice and theory are completely separate. What you read in a guide might not be anywhere near as interesting in practice, and a game that might not seem very complicated on the outside, might be unbelievably dynamic in practice. MIGHT, ofc. Make up your own minds!

On the subject of purpose vs accident, it is (or should be) completely irrelevant to the quality of the end product. You cannot say "the game wasn't meant to be played this way" and use it as a criticism. People that know what they're doing are playing the game a certain way and that's what we should go by.

[harveybirdman]

I don't have anything to add to the discussion other than to say that as a novice this game is less than appealing to me for the simple fact that I can't see the bullets. I mean I may never 1cc anything in my entire life but I like to play through a stage or two pretending that I will one day.

I've never got that sensation from Garegga.

[Vludi]

I don't have anything to add to the discussion other than to say that as a novice this game is less than appealing to me for the simple fact that I can't see the bullets. I mean I may never 1cc anything in my entire life but I like to play through a stage or two pretending that I will one day.

I've never got that sensation from Garegga.

You get used to the bullets eventually

[jasoncslaughter]

sublime genus

So if Garegga is a member of the sublime genus, I'm curious what other genera are in the shmups family. I love me a good taxonomy discussion!

[phase3]

rentalcar, not to say you are wrong in your opinions, but you might be surprised at the level of depth and quality that also exists in many other shooters, even if they do not use a dynamic rank system. This might sound condescending but I'm directing this to anyone that might happen to read this. BG has been analyzed to death around here, now try observing and analyzing something else to the same degree (not as easy since you'll have to work harder for it when fewer people relay the information to you) and you will find that there's a lot to fawn over besides this one game. None of my favorites are farm-favorites, but I will defend their enormous quality to the death. Remember that practice and theory are completely separate. What you read in a guide might not be anywhere near as interesting in practice, and a game that might not seem very complicated on the outside, might be unbelievably dynamic in practice. MIGHT, ofc. Make up your own minds!.

This is a really curious point, because I'm sure that there are plenty of other shmups that, from a design standpoint, surpass Garegga's intricacy. Perhaps games in my own collection. This raises a question to me that I'd like to pose to the forum: what is it about Garegga's design that has prompted so much discussion and analysis? It seems to me that even amongst those that understand and have the ability to appreciate what makes the game unique, there seems to be a lack of agreement over what it is that makes it brilliant. (Whether or not it is brilliant, is a matter of opinion and taste, I think.) Garegga has been notable for me (so far) because it has managed to subvert the way I would typically approach a shmup, but as some have mentioned, this may because i'm not yet as experienced with it as other games I enjoy.

But why is the following behind Garegga such a prolific and varied one, whereas other games that may even be considered better aren't as heavily discussed in terms of it's underlying structure?

sublime genus

So if Garegga is a member of the sublime genus, I'm curious what other genera are in the shmups family. I love me a good taxonomy discussion!

I was hoping my typo would go unnoticed. After I realized my mistake, it annoys me every time I check back and I can't do anything about it.

[Xyga]

I was hoping my typo would go unnoticed. After I realized my mistake, it annoys me every time I check back and I can't do anything about it.

When editing your opening post, you can modify the thread's title too.

[Zen]

After reading the appreciation for the game here, I feel like im missing out on a pillar of shmupdom. Garrega has always given me a hard time. Going to read that guide and give it another shot.

[Obiwanshinobi]

But why is the following behind Garegga such a prolific and varied one, whereas other games that may even be considered better aren't as heavily discussed in terms of it's underlying structure?

I think the majority of shmups remains largely unplayed, so people don't have that much opinion to exchange. For instance, this revelation about Slap Fight MD port occured only three years ago on these boards... when the port itself was 20.

[phase3]

Went to reread http://www.battlegareg.ga last night to find that it's no longer up.
I wish I had printed it off or something. Does someone have a copy of the page's text somewhere? If KevinDDR wanted to open up donations, I'd be more than happy to chip in.

[KevinDDR]

Well I fucked up and my spam filter filtered out the domain expiry notification 3 or 4 days ago. Looks like battlegareg.ga is gone, although the registrar I used seems to still own the domain so maybe I can get it back. I'll wait to hear from them, and if I don't hear anything in a day or two I'll attach that server to a different domain.

[Durandal]

If there's one thing that bugs me about Battle Garegga, it's the invisibility of the entire rank system, and pretty much anything underneath the surface.
How is anyone who saw this fresh cool new game in the arcades of '96 supposed to know about all the underlying intricacies in order to not get nuked at the turret wall?
Nobody knew for certain how the game actually worked before romhackers started digging in the code and we got to know Japan's secrets many years after the game's release.
The rank system is brilliant, but it's barely communicated to the player, and requires you to read an extensive guide before you can make any sense out of it outside of thousand sessions of trial and error. The same can be said for most arcade games with elaborate scoring systems, but Battle Garegga really takes the cake here, a visible rank meter wouldn't have hurt. At times Battle Garegga feels like a programmer's game than a game meant to be played by human beings. A regular programmer would have just implemented rank in a basic way, but YGW is not a regular programmer.

[Eaglet]

Enough information about the system got out quite early to make regular score play viable and not that obtuse.
If you look at the history of top scores you'll see that they got high pretty damn quick.
The effects of rank is often exaggerated. The only thing to be mindful of is shot frequency and spare extends really aside from the obvious stuff.

[monouchi]

I love Garegga and wondered how YGW and the team could come up with so many cool ideas that worked.

Then I played Gun Frontier.

For me Garegga becomes even more fun as I find more and more connections between the two games.
If the Silversword was alone then Garegga could well have been called Gun Frontier 2.

[Erppo]

It's not like rank or its manipulation were new ideas or anything so surely people figured out the basics quickly. It's not a super hard game either so surely many people cleared it without knowing how it works underneath. You also need to know the specifics if you want to push the rank to impossible levels too.

[Shepardus]

If there's one thing that bugs me about Battle Garegga, it's the invisibility of the entire rank system, and pretty much anything underneath the surface.
How is anyone who saw this fresh cool new game in the arcades of '96 supposed to know about all the underlying intricacies in order to not get nuked at the turret wall?
Nobody knew for certain how the game actually worked before romhackers started digging in the code and we got to know Japan's secrets many years after the game's release.
The rank system is brilliant, but it's barely communicated to the player, and requires you to read an extensive guide before you can make any sense out of it outside of thousand sessions of trial and error. The same can be said for most arcade games with elaborate scoring systems, but Battle Garegga really takes the cake here, a visible rank meter wouldn't have hurt. At times Battle Garegga feels like a programmer's game than a game meant to be played by human beings. A regular programmer would have just implemented rank in a basic way, but YGW is not a regular programmer.

The underlying implementation and certain aspects such as 100-400 medals adding more to rank than 500-10000, as well as the specific numbers to everything, are unusual and not really communicated to the player, but the basic techniques needed to 1cc the game are pretty standard fare for a rank-heavy game. Limiting powerup level has existed as a technique since Gradius at least, and committing suicide to lower rank isn't a large stretch either considering the game gives so many lives but only lets you carry up to five. People must have intuited early on that playing "badly" and losing lives as they got them made the game less angry at them than holding on to the lives and losing them later.

For what it's worth I think Batrider's rank system is more intuitive. For one, 10k medals add more to rank than 100 medals, and adjusting autofire rate doesn't affect rank asides from there being more shots fired.

The effects of rank is often exaggerated. The only thing to be mindful of is shot frequency and spare extends really aside from the obvious stuff.

Very true - with the more powerful ships such as Golden Bat and Miyamoto, simply being mindful of item collection and not jacking up the autofire rate is enough to get you to BH2 at least. Before BH1 you're much more likely to die because you don't know the stages well (like in any other shmup) than because you didn't manage rank well enough. I've seen much nastier rank systems than Garegga's.

[Despatche]

Allow me to elaborate significantly on Obiwanshinobi's statement above.

The thing is that in Japan, pretty much all of these games are broken down and figured out by dedicated communities. Something like the Garegga ST was probably put together well before 2000, even if it's largely mental or otherwise personal notetaking. Contrast with the west, where the one or two people fumble at only the most recent and high profile releases. It took until last month for anyone to do a proper writeup on how Futari BL Original actually works.

Maybe people need to play these games in their correct context before they start making claims about what's "intuitive". Since you almost never can (how many people here can call themselves "a dedicated Japanese arcade player in 1996"?), maybe people need to just not make strange claims about games they aren't even "supposed" to be playing.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna appreciate these games for what People Who Are Supposed To Know Better have shown me they're worth, instead of falsely criticizing a pretty talented programmer and game designer for making a game that I was never supposed to be a part of. It sounds a bit like how reviewers get picked to review games in genres they fundamentally hate, doesn't it?

I don't think it needs to be said that what's "intuitive" is about as variable and opinionated as what's "fun"; nor does it really need to be said that the more people who band behind a particular opinion, the more that opinion needs to be scrutinized. But, for some reason, we always seem to forget both of these things.

Oh, and the "I can't see the bullets" thing is getting really old. I'm (apparently) colorblind to certain oranges and browns and I can still see Garegga bullets on a low quality stream. Y'all need to get your eyes checked, seriously. Maybe stop staring at televisions and computer screens for a while. Eat more carrots (or cheese, if you can). Et cetera.

[xorthen]

Battle Garegga is one of my least favorite shooters.

[Shepardus]

If I don't like a certain aspect of a game, it doesn't matter whether it was "supposed" to be like that or if it was made for a different audience than me. That might explain why I don't like it, but it's not going to make me like it. For what it's worth I think people here are also overly dismissive of the myriad of negative shmup reviews out there.

[phase3]

Another thing worth mentioning about Garegga is that it's cool. That may seem arbitrary, but it's easily forgotten that part of the appeal of Garegga is that it is aesthetically different in addition to being designed differently. The game has style and character in a way that feels more compelling to me than most any game i've come across in the genre. In fact, it appeals to me in a more interesting way than most any media has.
Nearly everything about the game is pleasing to me. The music, the pacing, the atmosphere, the overall design, it all fits together exactly as it should. And I like the result of these things.
To some, Garegga may be an accidental hamburger with no fillings, but to me it's a fourth dimensional hamburger deluxe with fillings and a pickle.

For me Garegga becomes even more fun as I find more and more connections between the two games.
If the Silversword was alone then Garegga could well have been called Gun Frontier 2.

Definitely have new appreciation for Gun Frontier, a game I already quite liked, after spending extensive time playing Garegga.

[Squire Grooktook]

Fourth Dimensional Hamburger is an apt descriptor of Battle Garegga.

[Despatche]

If I don't like a certain aspect of a game, it doesn't matter whether it was "supposed" to be like that or if it was made for a different audience than me. That might explain why I don't like it, but it's not going to make me like it. For what it's worth I think people here are also overly dismissive of the myriad of negative shmup reviews out there.

It might not matter to that person, but a point is significantly hurt when they attempt to take what little fact there is out of a particular preference. Many of these preferences aren't really simple preferences at all because they actually do have these potential facts attached to them. One loses the right to say "I don't like this" when they also proceed to provide strange and potentially incorrect justifications as to why. It makes them look incredibly ignorant, especially when they're supposed to be part of a community that fights a similar type of common ignorance.

As for that exact common ignorance, the funny thing is that the vast majority of these "negative shmup reviews" are fundamentally nonsensical for the same reason; completely misunderstanding the context. At the same time, the negative response you get around here is very hivemind-y, just like the slowdown thing. People are doing the right thing, but for a completely wrong reason.

There's really no point in a preference if it's as undiscerning as "I don't care about any bit of the context behind this game, but I hate it anyway because of a bad lived experience; my ad-hoc lived experiences are more important than a carefully-studied, reasonable judgement".

[ciox]

Fourth Dimensional Hamburger is an apt descriptor of Battle Garegga.

I might have posted it before but it still holds up:

[Cagar]

-

[Squire Grooktook]

I think he already proved himself as an innovative and excellent designer/programmer with Recca beforehand though.

As I said on the first page, I do think there is a strong sense of "fundamentals" present in throughout Garegga, which are definitely not the result of accident. Some of the more intricate things, perhaps not. But still. The guy knows how to make cool games.

[blackoak]

Downplaying the achievement of YGW with Garegga because some of its best features may be the result of emergent rather than "intentional" design seems to miss the point imo, and reminds me of equally silly arguments about electronic music and the use of algorithmic and procedural methods of composition. Of course, if you don't like the end result...

[Cagar]

-