Practice modes and Save States - What do you think?

[ptoing]

I don't think it is a cheat at all. If there is a cross country race and some of the contestants spend more time to go over specific hard parts instead of practising the whole course every time, they will probably do a bit better in the hard bits than those who did not practise those more. Same with savestates or practise modes. It will make you get better faster, that is all. People who think that the only right way to practise the games is a credit at a time are deluding themselves.

[Skykid]

The top Japanese players do not like save states or emulators, even for practice.

Well they're arcade games I guess, and formed in such a way that a credit per run or credit feeding are in the parameters of how it the game can and should be learned.

Save stating is essentially an artificial manipulation of the game to cover a section over and over without actually learning it in a credit by credit pattern. Not organic, so to speak, and not part of the traditional arcade experience. To have an even playing field, I can understand why dedicated players prefer not to deviate from the basic format.

[Lynx Winters]

Arcades are dead, and lmao at anyone who thinks "developer intent" means anything after a game is released and no longer being updated. Game cops going to bust my door in because I pushed a button to practice a boss.

[wiNteR]

Personally I don't see what the argument is about really. Whether you use save states, stage select, credit feeding, single credits (with or without watching any videos of the game while playing) -- to me they are just different modes of practice so to speak (and hence aren't comparable*). As such, someone who did practice using a more limited mode certainly did achieve a more difficult goal. There is no doubt about it.

But really, the other thing about arcade games fair for full runs ... really? I don't think that's the case at all. Two loops, instead of difficulty modes, is just one indication of it. For other indications, what about losing 9 bombs in a run just due to one silly mistake. It has nothing to do with fairness.

But I think if someone's playing sessions affords them the time for full runs (and they enjoy playing that way) then it's fine. For me, personally, many of my playing sessions in past few years have been much shorter than a full credit. I think using save states gives enormous amount of flexibility.

To summarize, I think playing in any manner is fine as long as you don't directly compare scores or goals achieved using save states and the same goals achieved with single credits or credit feeding.

My big issue with save states is, what's to stop someone from restarting on say 2-4 of some game until they get the 2-all and then showing that to everyone. I realize this is a dumb argument because if they can beat 2-5 + TLB of (insert hard cave game) then they can obviously do the rest, but it still irks me a little bit. Purely for practice I think it's a great tool for those that use it and I would respect the accomplishment always.

That would be cheating without a doubt. And so would be starting from, say, the fourth level if you thought the first three were trivial. It is fine to do it as part of practice though, just like any save state practice.

But yes, completing something like Ketsui just from the start of ura loop would be an excellent accomplishment in its own right (but invalid as a full score).

---

The other thing about japanese players, it is clear that they use level select freely without worrying about whether it is 'cheating' or not (ikaruga interview as I recall). And even if, hypothetically, they don't use save states or emulators at all how can we tell really. It is impossible to tell whether some arcadia score player did or didn't learn some of the finer tricks while using save states (leaving aside the exception of new games ofc).

Take the example of progear. I think its record was stagnant on ~270M for quite a long time. In one of the interviews the player mentioned that if it was possible to nmnb the last stage, the record could be improved quite a bit. Now when years later when this score was improved quite significantly, my question is that how can we tell whether the people making improved scores after that didn't do any save state practice for the last stage whatsoever?

*well to be really pedantic about it, they may be considered comparable (so to speak) since single credits/ credit feeding/ save states exist in a strict hierarchy.

[jepjepjep]

This is from the HFD interview (DOJ black label superplay)

TKS: Alright, so can you say something to people who will play Dodonpachi: Daioujou (white version included) in the future, or those already playing it?
HFD: Don't throw away games if you're losing.

TKS: Yeah, that's pretty essential isn't it?
HFD: Especially with Daioujou, I think that the best way to go about playing the game is to avoid throwing away games and get a sense of the overall flow of the game.

It's interesting to hear that the top Japanese players don't like to use save states/emulators. I wonder if the methodical nature of save-state practice somehow stunts the players creativity and improvisation. Since the top Japanese superplayers are pushing the envelope for these games rather than playing catch-up like most Western players, this could be part of the reason why.

Personally, I find it more fun to play full runs. I like the cohesive experience.

[Aquas]

http://www.twitch.tv/aquas_/c/2164783

A friendly 2-minute video to characterize this thread, from when I was doing Dangun Feveron 1cc attempts today.

[CptRansom]

SAVE STATES MOTHERFUCKER

[Hagane]

If you keep reading his quote...

That says nothing of console practice modes, which are essentially the same as savestates. Maybe it's just a stance against emulators/hacking, grounded on their strong arcade culture. An irrational view still, even more if console practice modes are OK. And I know there are top Japanese players like Archer and KET who play on emulators/consoles, so I doubt that opinion is as uniform as you want to make it seem.

[Kollision]

That says nothing of console practice modes, which are essentially the same as savestates.

Oh, no, they're not.
Some very rare cases allow boss practice (Mushis), but other than that they're really not the same at all.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Some very rare cases allow boss practice (Mushis), but other than that they're really not the same at all.

From a functional standpoint they serve the same purpose - to allow you to replay one tricky section you're having problems with repeatedly to improve at that section without having to play through the rest of the game to get to that point. Credit feeding to get to the point you're having trouble with is essentially the same except much more time consuming, though in some cases your power level might be a bit messed up, but generally the important thing is learning the bullet patterns at a segment.

The music analogy still applies here - all of your practice (regardless of how it's done) is supposed to be for the purpose of improving your success on a real run.

[Hagane]

Roo is spot on. Some practice modes are better than others (best ever I tried would be Imperishable Night's, that even lets you select particular boss patterns) and give you more flexibility, but they all serve the same exact purpose: saving time by skipping the parts you already can perform well.

[EXEXEX]

Wow found this important thread

How do I use "save state practice" in shmups? Using per-stage order or only difficult section?

[Stevens]

You use them where you need to.

Right now with Progear I have one at the start of every level including the 1st cause I don't want to select the same ship and gunner every time. The levels are also pretty short in Progear so one per stage is sufficient.

If Progear's last stage was like SDOJ's I would have more for certain.

[Lyv]

You use them where you need to.

This.
Some prefer to use them as substitute for stage practice, others savestate every 10 seconds until they got everything right and move to the next section.
Try different approaches, see what goes best.

In most games I have 4 states per level (start, midboss, second section, boss) ; only 2 (start, boss) in games with shorter stages. Add a few temporary savestates for hard sections/patterns.
Protip : rebind the "set savestate" shortcut to something more convenient than the default, or use pause to have more time.

[GGA_HAN]

Quoting this for for visibility and truth. I wish some of the better gamers I know wouldn't hamper themselves with these self imposed "rules"...

Well, I'm kinda new to serious shmup play but I gotta say as a hardcore fighting game fan, this practice mode is cheap talk sounds like scrub talk to me.

Playing through the first two stages hundreds of times when just to get another chance at the 5 seconds of gameplay that are giving you trouble is the most idiotically inefficient waste of time imaginable. What exactly are you proving by playing through the same easy beginning stages hundreds of times over before you practice? You are still practicing just like the rest of us, you are just doing it at a slow inefficient pace. In the end when we do 1cc runs we are all being tested the same way, it's just that some are better prepared for it than others.

If you did bad on an exam because you thought studying outside of class was cheating your professor would think you were a dumbass.

Doing it that way because it's more fun that way for you is one thing, but calling it cheap, or cheating is nothing but scrub talk. You are making just an excuse for your own shortcomings at a game. Don't sabotage yourself with artificial scrub rules. Play to win.

Sorry for the rant, fighting gamers don't like scrubs...

[pegboy]

It is idiotic not to use every possible available resource. There is no such thing as "cheating in practice" or any of that other bullshit. You want internet bragging rights or something? Nobody is going to give you any just because you practiced in the most inefficient way possible and wasted hundreds of hours for no reason. Time is a valuable resource, if you are making inefficient uses of it I would call you an idiot, not a hero.

You want to call it cheating? Can anyone show me where in the shmup bible it says "thou shalt not use save states"? If you never want to be the best you can be then you can forget about save states and never reach your full potential.

A run begins and ends with the credit you use, you cannot "cheat" because you practiced using save states or watched replays. How you obtained the skills involved in performing said feat does not matter.

[WelshMegalodon]

Quoting this for for visibility and truth. I wish some of the better gamers I know wouldn't hamper themselves with these self imposed "rules"...

Well, I'm kinda new to serious shmup play but I gotta say as a hardcore fighting game fan, this practice mode is cheap talk sounds like scrub talk to me.

Playing through the first two stages hundreds of times when just to get another chance at the 5 seconds of gameplay that are giving you trouble is the most idiotically inefficient waste of time imaginable. What exactly are you proving by playing through the same easy beginning stages hundreds of times over before you practice? You are still practicing just like the rest of us, you are just doing it at a slow inefficient pace. In the end when we do 1cc runs we are all being tested the same way, it's just that some are better prepared for it than others.

If you did bad on an exam because you thought studying outside of class was cheating your professor would think you were a dumbass.

Doing it that way because it's more fun that way for you is one thing, but calling it cheap, or cheating is nothing but scrub talk. You are making just an excuse for your own shortcomings at a game. Don't sabotage yourself with artificial scrub rules. Play to win.

Sorry for the rant, fighting gamers don't like scrubs...

Scrub play in fighting games typically refers to those imposing their own rules in actual gameplay, whereas savestates are clearly a method of practice.

[Ako]

Always practice the hardest stage first and most often, go backwards in difficulty from there. That way the hardest parts of the game feel most familiar to you and thus when you actually do runs it won't feel like you're going from your home base to the hard parts of the game; it will feel like you're going from the easy parts to your real home at the end.

[chempop]

I just vomited in my mouth a little.

[Aggro Sky]

Yeah I use save states and emulators for my practice runs, then I switch to original hardware when I feel ready. I think without some of these practice methods there would not be the amount of people 1CCing these games. I don't see a problem with it. Hell, even the NES Classic that Nintendo is releasing in November is going to have save states. So yeah, we're good.

[chempop]

A friendly challenge for the save state players. 1CC Dimahoo, Dangun Feveron, or Air Gallet or any other 'hard' shmup without save state practice.

[Shepardus]

Oh boy it's one of these threads again

I 1-ALL'd DOJBL with A-L without using savestates; that's probably the hardest clear I've done without them. I've also 1-ALL'd DDP with all ship/weapon types, Gunbird with Marion, and 1CC'd various PC games without using practice modes, none of which were particularly hard.

I don't shy away from using savestates nowadays since frankly I'd probably get bored of playing many games if I didn't have the ability to skip to the parts I want to see. I'd rather spend the limited time I have on the parts of the games I want to play and not parts I'm not in the mood to play. Sometimes I want to play stage 4 of Progear and not any of the other stages. Dragon Blaze is one of those rare games where even the easiest parts are still fun after you've memorized them inside and out, but even then I sometimes just want to get right to the intensity of the second loop (the sky stage boss is so much fun!). Oftentimes I'm too lazy to set up savestates (really, that's the biggest barrier to me) and I play the game anyway because the early stages are still fun, but if I find myself getting tired of the earlier stages while still being enthusiastic about the game as a whole, that's when I break out the savestates.

Up to this point I haven't said anything about using savestates for the sake of practice, because talking about all the time you save on your way to the 1CC just makes it sound like you're trying to avoid playing the game. That said, I use savestates for practice too. Shorter iteration time to test different techniques doesn't just save time from being wasted doing things I don't want to do, it also frees up the game to more experimentation because the commitment and investment in any single iteration is lower. Without savestates it takes longer to do things but my play sessions and my attention span don't grow longer by the same factor so it becomes harder to make meaningful progress and retain interest. In my personal experience with Parodius Da, a lengthy game for which I have yet to set up savestates (laziness prevails yet again), every time I reach the stage 5 boss I'm too scared about doing something stupid and losing my run, so I stick with the method I already know. I'm sure it's not the best way to handle it but it's more likely to succeed than if I tried something new. The game's so long and I'm inconsistent enough at it that I'd be lucky to see stage 8 once a day, so on the rare occasion I do reach it my nerves are too shot to do anything other than the most conservative strategy I know of. I've already committed the past 30 minutes to getting there, I'm not about to throw it away when this could be the run. But when I'm playing from a savestate I'm not losing any run. I end up trying things that not only would take much longer without savestates/practice modes, but that I probably wouldn't try at all.

I disagree about starting from the last stage and working your way back, it's just asking for trouble if you don't really understand yet how the game flows and how you're supposed to approach it. It would probably work if you were playing a game in a series that you already have experience with, but if, say, you're playing Dragon Blaze and you're not familiar with any Psikyo games (or even if you are), starting with 1-6 or 1-7 (or better yet, their second-loop variants) is just going to be a nightmare and someone like me would just drop the game and move on to something else before really learning what it's about. Besides, unless you're using cheats to set up your savestates (which I sometimes do) you have to get through the earlier stages to even start practicing the later stages.

[trap15]

1CC Dimahoo, Dangun Feveron, or Air Gallet or any other 'hard' shmup without save state practice.

Why?

[Squire Grooktook]

A friendly challenge for the save state players...Dangun Feveron...

Guess who has the higher score in that game between us, automatically making my opinion more valid :3

I don't really care about what happens outside the run. All that matters to me is the run. If anyone considers me a cheater, then that doesn't matter to me as much as the extra hours of drudgery I save by save stating a bunch of dumb memorizer gimmicks. I could be using that time to study or spend time with my family or watching hentai or something.

That being said, if dodging a pattern is as fun and fair without memo as it is with memo (rng bullet sprays wooo), to the point that I enjoy playing it every time, then I won't bother with save states.

Keep me amused, video game.

[Vludi]

Using save-states for practice saves tons of time, it's especially good for sections that are pure memorization and for long, static games. The only difference if you don't use them is that you will take more time reaching your goal, because you had to play all the trivial stuff hundreds of times just to practice that difficult stage/area.

[NTSC-J]

A friendly challenge for the save state players. 1CC Dimahoo, Dangun Feveron, or Air Gallet or any other 'hard' shmup without save state practice.

OK, but I practiced Feveron with save states a while ago, am I forever tainted from making a clean run if I stop using save state practice now?
What if I wait a long time until I forget all of my routes, would I qualify for a clean 1CC?
Are level selects in ports OK?
What if my save states are at the start of each stage like in the port?
What if the port for Feveron lets you practice at bosses as well? Could I set save states there?
What if Cave ports the game with save states?
What if a company other than Cave ports the game with save states without their knowledge or approval?
What if I make an arrange version of the game with save states and put it on a PCB with Ikeda's approval?
What if I ask Ikeda to make an arrange version of the game with save states and put it on a PCB?
What if I ask Ikeda to make an arrange version of the game with save states and put it on a PCB and only I can play it?
What if I force Ikeda by gun point to make an arrange version of the game with save states and put it on a PCB and distribute it claiming that it's legit and everyone plays it using the save states then Ikeda escapes and says it's bullshit, he didn't want it to have save states, so he makes a version without save states but everyone's already played it with states and remembers all their strats using states?
Can I use a Saturn controller?

[chempop]

I think forever tainted is the anser to most of those questions.

I do get a kick out of the whole wasting time argument. It's like bragging about how "I just don't like to waste as much time playing video games as you" or "I want results as fast as possible, because I have better things to do" Then there is the whole "guys guys, _insert something that has stage/state practice_ has it built in, we're okay, right.. right?" As if some inner voice is questioning the validity and if a false sense of accomplishment is going to whack you in the head some day and you realize the truth.

Why?

because I honestly think if more people tried playing 'organic', they'd maybe have more fun, prestige, appreciation of the game after clearing it without haXXXing their way through it. That's all, to maybe give it a change is all I'm saying.

I really REALLY don't care how others play their games, but I think it's an interesting discussion. Because there seems to be very little middle ground. Several members who are my greatest inspiration here use States, it's all good as long as you keep shooting game alive.

[Squire Grooktook]

I do get a kick out of the whole wasting time argument. It's like bragging about how "I just don't like to waste as much time playing video games as you" or "I want results as fast as possible, because I have better things to do"

I usually break out the save states when I like a game, but when it has some late-game area that is not fun and needs pain-staking and irritatingly vast amounts of pure* trial and error to be passed. If practice is impossible, then I usually drop the game.

It's simply not fun knowing that every one of the next 30 runs are automatically doomed to failure (and thus, have no tension or excitement, because the outcome of the battle is known before it begins) in the exact same spot because of this not fun road block that's in your way.

That is a situation that strikes me more as a boring time sink (hence the "wasting time" argument) then actually playing a game and enjoying it. It damages the entire flow of the game and reduces everything to a sense of boredom till the problem area is excised by memorization. If save states can excise that stretch of tedium faster, and get me back into a battle that actually has the possibility for victory (and thus, the possibility for excitement), then I consider those the best possible option. Others might interpret it differently, saying that this is the true essence of shmups. But they are wrong. And fat.



*that is to say, no interesting challenge. No execution, no reflexes. Just a poorly guessing game until you try every possible option. And each attempt requires a 30 minute time investment.

because I honestly think if more people tried playing 'organic', they'd maybe have more fun, prestige, appreciation of the game after clearing it without haXXXing their way through it. That's all, to maybe give it a change is all I'm saying.

The vast majority of my 1cc's came from this method. And I can say from personal experience, when something really annoying and poorly designed comes up, its simply not worth the time to struggle over it "organically". Credit feed, save state, whatever. Anything is better when the game is essentially forcing you to guess 30 times in a row, with the odds stacked in its favor.

[Perikles]

I can understand both sides of the argument and like to mix it up depending on the game and mood.

When I re-discovered the genre a few years back I exclusively played on consoles without ever touching any emulator, I also refrained from watching videos save for very rare occasions. Progress might've been slower than it could've been, but I still cleared several shmups (far over 100) with this method, continuously learning the fundamentals along the way. And I do believe it was very helpful in that regard: to come to terms with some universal mechanics as opposed to particular spots. As someone who has no outstanding reflexes or motor skill I sorely needed to get an idea how to dodge bullets in general. Like several novices I started out frantically moving all over the screen instead of resorting to fewer, but methodical manoeuvers. Instead of condemning checkpoints just as impossible I sat down to learn them, discovering that there are indeed logical ways to conquer them (in some games, that is), I even started to really enjoy the challenge of recovering in certain titles. I purposefully killed myself in the SFC Gradius III to see how every single checkpoint would work out, and was greatly pleased when I managed to get back on my feet from every one of them. Improving the entire game was also beneficial - sometimes a certain boss or spot would prove to be a major roadblock, yet with enough resources it was possible to beat those, as well. This also taught me a lesson in strategy: there might be more than one way to achieve the desired goal.

My fondest memory of that is probably the first R-Type. I played it on the PS1 without any external help. I wasn't even aware at the time that you could enter a code to fully power up the ship which would've lessened the pain of the checkpoints considerably. All I did was playing the game from the start, tossing credits in and learning it. You might imagine what a massacre it was - recovering in R-Type is no simple task at all for a neophyte, I have to admit that I still never managed to beat the game without both bits (in order to have them for the final boss you're not allowed to die after stage 4). Despite all the frustration, it was a magical experience. When I finally managed to clear the first loop on a single life I was tremendously thrilled.

Maybe I'm romanticising matters, but I like to think that I didn't really "waste" time while playing like that. I tried to productively learn from every session and game, and I do feel that this was ultimately the case. Even dabbling with some monstrosities such as Dimension Force, Battle Squadron or Legion was valuable since they forced me to re-evaluate some of my concepts. Adapting to terrible games can be a veritable chore, dealing with sloppy, colossal hitboxes, baffling design choices or flat-out unfair enemies a real torture. Nevertheless, it helped to pave the way for later games to come.


The turning point for me came when I thought about loops. Some games got so much tougher in their subsequent loops that I couldn't get any efficient practice in. The Gradius Deluxe Packs for the 32-bit consoles for example don't even allow any sort of loop select, so if you want to practice higher loops you always have to beat the first loop before getting into the real challenge. Then and there I realized it would take me forever to clear the second loop of an Irem game or Konami title, and that other means of practice were in order. I still play games without any savestate practice simply because I have more fun just inserting a credit once in a while (Twin Cobra is the perfect example for this) and other games have highly dysfunctional savestates anyway (like Dragon Saber; or the game doesn't run well in MAME at all such as Gradius IV), so it's not like I can't beat tougher games without them all of a sudden. There is no denying that it would be a horrible waste of time in other situations, though. Recovery in R-Type II's second loop was completely out of the question for me, so what would be my alternative? Playing for thirty minutes, dying once, starting all over, getting tired and eventually shutting off without any progress whatsoever? I had a lot of joy to figure this game out with savestates, it granted me the freedom to just test things I never would've dared otherwise. If anything, the savestates can be a tool for the player to get more creative. I'm not advocating to use them all the time, I do believe there is such a thing as genuinely experiencing the game which might get lost if you immediately divide the game into little chunks. There are other circumstances where they not only facilitate beating a long, tough game, but also generate a lot of delectation you might be missing otherwise.

[Bananamatic]

if you unironically argue that using tools the developer gives you just to explore the game is cheating then you're retarded

hell, cave even gives you pseudo-savestates: you can press a button during a replay at any time to take over the gameplay, allowing you to TAS to some extent or see how the run would've gone if some thing happened differently, this was implemented even back in the ps2 DOJ port

sdoj even gave you stuff like display enemy HP as a bonus to make learning the game easier and no one in the arcades complained that it's ruining their culture or whatever