XRGB-mini Framemeister

[FBX]

I also was a bit confused because on the main site he suggest "Color_Output = Auto and Color_Range = Full", but the profiles seem to be set to "Color_Output = RGB and Color_Range = Full on PS2 and Limited on SNES".

The new color output settings were a recent change I made after coming to the realization the RGB conversion process was being butchered by the Framemeister (typically the "nuke" greens issue). I've been in the process of re-calibrating and re-uploading the profiles since then. I just finished with the Genesis profiles, which can be downloaded from the newest package here:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... 8-2016.zip

Eventually all the profiles will be updated, but I felt it was important to post the findings ahead of time so people could fix their own files themselves.

[Larrs888]

@ Lars, I think I've figured out what's going on: Your TV itself is overscanning 720 input. You need to find out if there's any sort of setting that will turn that off, otherwise, you won't be able to ever get uniform scanlines without that cropping going on. In short, your TV is to blame.

And by the way, for 1080p, you have to use integer 2x vertical for uniform scanlines. My profile already provides that for Dreamcast in 1080p

It's his TV. I have a Sony XBR850B and used your supplied 720p settings. When the TV's screen setting is set to -1 the top and bottom are cut off; when it's set to +1, it fits perfectly. Needless to say, the picture quality is better using your standard 1080p profile. It looks sharper and the scanlines are better coming from the Toro. Using Capcom vs SNK 2 as a test, with the XRGB Mini's DEC LINE / SMOOTH settings, the overlays don't look good; especially the top part (GP, SP, Gd, Pr). Using your 1080p profile and the Toro's scanlines, the overlays are much crisper. Damn Capcom with their 480p overlays and backgrounds with 240p sprites on top. LOL.

Hey guys, thanks again for all the help with my DC/Toro/Framemeister setup. Yeah my Sony KDLV3000 Bravia doesn't have a +1/2 mode just "Normal" and +1/+2 . I have set the Toro to output RGB but rather than 480p VGA and the games I tested output 480i which results in the same overscanned image as 480p scaled to 720p. Native 240p games from my SNES, Mega Drive and Neo Geo CMVS do not overscan and are perfect at 720p with nice scanlines.

This is useful information as my Bravia is a bit long in the tooth (2008) and I need a new 1080p panel for my gaming setup so I will do some research into display modes. Whilst we are on the subject of TVs I get the feeling that most models now are 4k, which means scaling 240p retro games is going to be more of an issue. How do people view the Framemeister with 4k TVs, does the picture look any good?

I think I'll do my best to get a 1080p display since nothing is native 4k at the moment anyway aside from those new UHD Blu-rays which I'm not bothered about.

Thanks.

[Coryoon]

Dug my old Snes out from the attic, it is a PAL Snes and has a Scart cable via 'Multi' out connection.

However, the picture looks really crap direct to the TV, and I don't get any picture using it on my PVM or my Framemeister.

Is it possible that my so called Scart cable is possibly only wired for composite - hence why there is no picture on the FM / PVM?

[jdawg131]

This is useful information as my Bravia is a bit long in the tooth (2008) and I need a new 1080p panel for my gaming setup so I will do some research into display modes. Whilst we are on the subject of TVs I get the feeling that most models now are 4k, which means scaling 240p retro games is going to be more of an issue. How do people view the Framemeister with 4k TVs, does the picture look any good?

I think I'll do my best to get a 1080p display since nothing is native 4k at the moment anyway aside from those new UHD Blu-rays which I'm not bothered about.

Thanks.

My TV is a 4K model. I have no issues with the picture quality using the XRGB Mini (best results with 1080p profiles). The thing to remember with 4K compared to 1080p is increased lag (even when switched to Game mode). It's a small sacrifice for me. I'm into movies / home theater just as much as I am retro gaming.

[FBX]

Is it possible that my so called Scart cable is possibly only wired for composite - hence why there is no picture on the FM / PVM?

Quite possibly. I've heard of older SCART cables only passing composite video before.

[Xyga]

Is it possible that my so called Scart cable is possibly only wired for composite - hence why there is no picture on the FM / PVM?

Quite possibly. I've heard of older SCART cables only passing composite video before.

Fake scart cables actually became more common since around the 128bit era and on, those then can be said to be newer, unfortunately.

[CkRtech]

Just to point out a minor technicality here - SCART doesn't mean RGB. SCART can carry RGB signals, and the cable has to indicate this via pin 16.

[AndehX]

yes, SCART is a medium for carrying pretty much every pre-component signal (composite, s-video, RGB) the correct cable you need is an RGB SCART cable.

[Xyga]

Goes without saying I meant 'scart without RGB'. To be more precise as a French (birthplace of scart) I've always seen it carrying RGB, it was the norm here, what it was created for, so seeing some carrying other signals such as composite and s-video was not really normal and occurences only increased with the growing supplies of cheap mass-consumer hardware originally designed for foreign markets where RGB wasn't a thing.

[Fudoh]

I've always seen it carrying RGB, it was the norm here

sure about that ? I guess the main application for every day scart use here in Europe was to hook up a VCR to a television set and since no VCR carries RGB, composite-only Scart would have been pretty common in France as well, wouldn't it ?

For console-use I'm with you of course. The downfall came with the RCA to Scart adapters that Sony included with every PS1 here in Europe.

[Xyga]

I'm talking consoles of course!

Typically the non-rgb scart came from Asia directly, products not designed specifically for European markets but still packaged for selling here.

[Everblue]

I just got a Neo Geo AES system which came with a CSYNC RGB Scart cable (this is a custom cable as my AES is modded to output stereo from the back). When hooked directly to a TV picture is perfect, but when connected to Framemeister with a RetroGamingCable's CSYNC Scart adapter (also with built in sync stripper) the picture has like a ghosting effect to the right which is quite annoying. Is this because of double CSYNC? I have no other cables to test with. Thanks for any help guys =)

Please see image below:



PS. I don't get this effect with my other consoles (RGB Modded PC Engine and Megadrive)

Anyone?

[Shuco13]

You have several options:
1. If you use SHARPNESS 0, try setting it to 1 and see if you can spot any change.
2. If you use ZOOM settings try adjusting the zoom width settings since you might have incorrect aspect ratio.
3. Try adjusting the H_SCALER option

[Everblue]

You have several options:
1. If you use SHARPNESS 0, try setting it to 1 and see if you can spot any change.
2. If you use ZOOM settings try adjusting the zoom width settings since you might have incorrect aspect ratio.
3. Try adjusting the H_SCALER option

Thanks a lot, will test them out!

----

One more thing, I am about to purchase an RGB/Scart cable for my Japanese Sega Saturn (and Framemeister), which should I get, Composite Video + sync, or CSYNC?

Thanks!

[nissling]

The one with composite video as sync should work with every Sega Saturn, and as some revisions do have a different pinout that may be the safest bet. Both give a stunning image.

[Everblue]

The one with composite video as sync should work with every Sega Saturn, and as some revisions do have a different pinout that may be the safest bet. Both give a stunning image.

Hmm yes, in fact if you select "CYSNC" version to buy, it asks you if you have model 1 or a model 2 Saturn.

[Coryoon]

Thanks for the feedback on the Snes Scart cable issue, guess Ill pick up one from retro gaming cables.

[RGB32E]

Anyone?

Looks like a bad/improper ground connection (cable issue). Does your cable from RGC account for a modified 8DIN output from the AES? Also, what compelled you to get a SCART RGB adapter with a built in sync separator? Aside from the initial mini FW from a number of years ago, a sync separator should not be needed. A picture from the CXA1145P area of the AES PCB might reveal clues as well.

The one with composite video as sync should work with every Sega Saturn, and as some revisions do have a different pinout that may be the safest bet. Both give a stunning image.

RGBS75 configured Saturn cables should be safe with both NTSC and PAL Saturns. By safe, I mean that you won't damage the system plugging it into a PAL Saturn, but you won't get a picture either...!

[Joelepain]

I've always seen it carrying RGB, it was the norm here

sure about that ? I guess the main application for every day scart use here in Europe was to hook up a VCR to a television set and since no VCR carries RGB, composite-only Scart would have been pretty common in France as well, wouldn't it ?

For console-use I'm with you of course. The downfall came with the RCA to Scart adapters that Sony included with every PS1 here in Europe.

As a french too, I can't speak for other european countries, but it seems to me that in France the legislation says that every TV Set should have at least one SCART input that supports RGB.
When you have a TV with more than one Scart input, most of the time there was one that supported RGB and the other S-Video. For VCR of course only the composite portion was useful.

Another thing is that the official encoding system in France is not PAL but SECAM.
I suppose it was easier for manufacturer to make consoles that output RGB instead of making a specific output encoder for just one country. That's why the SNES was shipped with a RGB Scart Cable, and that's why we almost got a natively RGB capable N64.

[nissling]

RGBS75 configured Saturn cables should be safe with both NTSC and PAL Saturns. By safe, I mean that you won't damage the system plugging it into a PAL Saturn, but you won't get a picture either...!

You are aware of that some PAL revisions output +12V on the same pin as the Japanese Saturn outputs Csync?

[RGB32E]

RGBS75 configured Saturn cables should be safe with both NTSC and PAL Saturns. By safe, I mean that you won't damage the system plugging it into a PAL Saturn, but you won't get a picture either...!

You are aware of that some PAL revisions output +12V on the same pin as the Japanese Saturn outputs Csync?

Are you aware of this post? http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p1177211

It's a NTSC vs PAL thing, not a Japanese only thing, same goes for the SNES/SFC.

[Blood_and_bones]

Is it normal to have to set up a different profile and settings for "almost" each game (even on same system) ?

I am trying to set my xrgb mini with a profile that would work for all 240p s-video input (n64, ps1, saturn) with output set to 720_60p, and it seems like some games just output a different image as far as being off center by different amounts. It is starting to seem like I will need to set up ALOT of different profiles with different zoom and Vertical/Horizontal pos/width settings.

Does that sound normal ?

[Larrs888]

Anyone?

Looks like a bad/improper ground connection (cable issue). Does your cable from RGC account for a modified 8DIN output from the AES? Also, what compelled you to get a SCART RGB adapter with a built in sync separator? Aside from the initial mini FW from a number of years ago, a sync separator should not be needed. A picture from the CXA1145P area of the AES PCB might reveal clues as well.

Could it be the PSU causing the interference? I have heard that sometimes a bad power supplier can cause noise on the image as well. Do you have the option to test another, also can you remove the sync stripper and re-test. You might have to buy another RGB Scart cable as well, annoying and potentially expensive as well but its process of elimination sometimes

Regarding your TV having a better image, it is probably the low pass filter of the TVs internal scaler hiding it. If you set the XRGB Mini picture mode to Standard instead of the recommended Picture setting it will activate a LPF that might hide the noise. Obviously this isn't a fix but it will confirm that your TV's LPF is hiding the issue.

[Fudoh]

I am trying to set my xrgb mini with a profile that would work for all 240p s-video input (n64, ps1, saturn) with output set to 720_60p, and it seems like some games just output a different image as far as being off center by different amounts. It is starting to seem like I will need to set up ALOT of different profiles with different zoom and Vertical/Horizontal pos/width settings.

really depends on what you want to achieve. For scanlined output at 720p you can still very well live without any profiles - that's how the FM was meant to be used for the past years. One of the two 4:3 ratio presets (Normal2 and Standard) usually give you a close enough to 4:3 ratio (which eliminates tinkering on the horizontal) and the vertical pixel input to output ratio is always an integer factor of 3, so you don't have to worry about that either.

[RGB32E]

Could it be the PSU causing the interference? I have heard that sometimes a bad power supplier can cause noise on the image as well.

The PSU can absolutely cause this type of artifact! Between verifying the cabling and PSU I'd imagine the issue can be sorted.

[Blood_and_bones]

I am trying to set my xrgb mini with a profile that would work for all 240p s-video input (n64, ps1, saturn) with output set to 720_60p, and it seems like some games just output a different image as far as being off center by different amounts. It is starting to seem like I will need to set up ALOT of different profiles with different zoom and Vertical/Horizontal pos/width settings.

really depends on what you want to achieve. For scanlined output at 720p you can still very well live without any profiles - that's how the FM was meant to be used for the past years. One of the two 4:3 ratio presets (Normal2 and Standard) usually give you a close enough to 4:3 ratio (which eliminates tinkering on the horizontal) and the vertical pixel input to output ratio is always an integer factor of 3, so you don't have to worry about that either.

OK so I went ahead and reset all of my settings. Set it to standard after I undid everything else I had done. I think I was making all kinds of changes that were not really helping.

On standard I immediately noticed that the games more or less will display about the same. Then from there the scanlines actually looked great. I had all kinds of settings I was experimenting with and the scanlines were looking a bit "off".

The 720p image does not match my 1080p screen which is what I would expect. It's when I start trying to make it look perfect that I start messing things up, especially when going to a different game.

I am still testing, but I have noticed a few things. For example, going through some n64 games, the ones that boot up right away tend to be pretty close to each other in video output/position. However the N64 games that are not in great shape and do not always boot up on the first try tend to deviate more from the expected output (display correct image but more off center). I was initially thinking this might be the way some games work, but now am leaning towards blaming the condition of the cartridges in question.

I think it was good for me to do away with my settings and start from scratch on standard. I will continue testing my ps1 and saturn games and possibly even a different tv.

[Fudoh]

The 720p image does not match my 1080p screen which is what I would expect. It's when I start trying to make it look perfect that I start messing things up, especially when going to a different game.

by "match" you mean fill ? Good scanlines require integer scaling. Most systems output 224 lines per frame, so you only get 672 active lines leaving a few lines unused on top and bottom. With 1080p (with profiles) you can use 4x integer scaling which has the same effect of 5x integer scaling which cuts off some more lines. Scanlines look best at 720p though, followed by 4x in 1080p. They don't look this hot in 1080p 5x.

I am still testing, but I have noticed a few things. For example, going through some n64 games, the ones that boot up right away tend to be pretty close to each other in video output/position. However the N64 games that are not in great shape and do not always boot up on the first try tend to deviate more from the expected output (display correct image but more off center). I was initially thinking this might be the way some games work, but now am leaning towards blaming the condition of the cartridges in question.

unlikely. Can you name an example ? Maybe these games are running in 480i instead.

[Blood_and_bones]

The 720p image does not match my 1080p screen which is what I would expect. It's when I start trying to make it look perfect that I start messing things up, especially when going to a different game.

by "match" you mean fill ? Good scanlines require integer scaling. Most systems output 224 lines per frame, so you only get 672 active lines leaving a few lines unused on top and bottom. With 1080p (with profiles) you can use 4x integer scaling which has the same effect of 5x integer scaling which cuts off some more lines. Scanlines look best at 720p though, followed by 4x in 1080p. They don't look this hot in 1080p 5x.

I am still testing, but I have noticed a few things. For example, going through some n64 games, the ones that boot up right away tend to be pretty close to each other in video output/position. However the N64 games that are not in great shape and do not always boot up on the first try tend to deviate more from the expected output (display correct image but more off center). I was initially thinking this might be the way some games work, but now am leaning towards blaming the condition of the cartridges in question.

unlikely. Can you name an example ? Maybe these games are running in 480i instead.

Correct. They don't fill the screen, but that is not an issue as I find the image to be pretty damn impressive at 720p 4:3 ratio with scanlines.

Regarding the N64 games, I tested the following games:

Ogre Battle 64: good
Hybrid Heaven: good
Quest 64: good
Star Wars Rogue Squadron: good


Mischief Makers: image off center
Snowboard Kids: image off center
San Francisco Rush: image off center

Those top 4 games output images that are pretty close to each other in terms of position and being properly centered.

The bottom 3 were outputting images that were off center by different amounts/positions. I struggled to get each of these games to run (as can happen with cartridges over time).

The saturn and ps1 games I have tested look pretty good so far.

[RGB32E]

If you want to avoid the headache of using a RGB modded N64 with the XRGB-mini, get an UltraHDMI kit installed! The resulting picture quality and features are hands down superior (perfect), not to mention the instantaneous 240p/480i switching times.

[axlblazeadam]

If you want to avoid the headache of using a RGB modded N64 with the XRGB-mini, get an UltraHDMI kit installed! The resulting picture quality and features are hands down superior (perfect), not to mention the instantaneous 240p/480i switching times.

If only the UltraHDMI was so easy to get hold of... it's sold out everywhere