Shmup design in 2016

[vgambit]

An attempted relaunch of another thread: "The problem with shmups as a genre."

(it's 5 in the morning. sorry for the rambling)

As I was reading the thread, something occurred to me: Almost every single shmup I have purchased has been a port of an arcade game. And the ones that weren't straight ports with little Quality-of-Life features like level select/training mode simply would not have been feasible as arcade releases due to the way they were designed.

The very first shmup I ever played in my life (2nd grade or so) was Tyrian for PC. It had two modes that I recall. The first was Arcade mode, which I played a handful of times. It was interesting because you got powerups that altered your weapons mid-level, and once you killed the boss, you would be taken to the next level, which was totally different in terms of the background and the enemies you fought. The reason I only played it a handful of times is because it was so punishingly difficult (at least on its default setting). The second was Story mode. I was too young to really care about or make sense of the story, but everything else was pretty damn well put-together. You'd start off with a screen showing a massive image of your ship, hollowed-out so you could see its internal components. You started off with a few credits to buy upgrades and new weapons, seeing how they affect your ship and its power consumption right there in a preview window. You could decide exactly how you wanted your ship to function, then fly it on a mission, picking up more credits to use to buy more ships, and so on. You had a save file, so you could play a level or two, then stop and come back later. If you saved enough money, you could even buy a new ship, and being able to sell back weapons to do so helped make sure it could happen. As I recall, the equipment available for purchase were different after every mission, so you didn't always have the same options available to you. I never actually finished it, but I played the hell out of that Story mode; partially because it's one of the few games my computer came with, and mostly because it was so damn fun.

Fast forward to about 7 years ago. I tried out a rom of Ketsui: Death Label and was hooked. I wasn't really familiar with bullet hell shooters at the time, but had heard good things about that game. You would hit play, and the game would just throw you at a boss fight. Kill, say, 2 bosses, and you win. Then you unlock the next level, where you have to kill 4 bosses, and so on, until you have to fight every Ketsui boss, on the final difficulty levels. The game had an interesting system where you would unlock additional credits, I think, with playtime. It also had autobomb enabled by default, but autobomb depleted the entire bomb supply, so (IIRC) you'd have to choose between using them to get out of multiple hairy situations per life, or saving them to effectively get extra lives. Of course, I know now that it's carebear stuff in comparison to "really" playing a shmup, but the fact of the matter is, that one game got me to shell out for a Japanese Xbox 360 specifically so I could play those region-locked Japan-exclusive games that Microsoft had somehow courted Cave into porting only to 360. And I ended up buying a second one after that one red ringed.

Looking over, I can count 9 STGs that I've purchased for that console, including limited edition and first-print copies that included nonsense like soundtrack/arrangement CDs, art books, guides, and exclusive DLC (when am I ever gonna play the summer carnival version of muchi muchi pork or whatever? who can tell the difference between MushiFutari 1.5 and 1.51???). My damn cell phone ringtone is Sally (Select).

As far as my playing habits for these games go, I'm not sure I've touched any of them in the last 6 months to a year. I have a 23" 1080p monitor with 1 frame of input lag attached to a fully-rotating stand for that ideal Tate experience, arcade sticks with Japanese parts, etc. But the games themselves could never hold me for longer than maybe 30 mins. I used to toy with the idea of practicing for a 1cc of my favorites, but the amount of effort required just didn't seem to match the enjoyment I was getting from it.

And this brings me closer to my point: I'm not sure the design of traditional shmups hold up at all, from a modern, average consumer standpoint.

Not long after I first got into shmups, I had the idea that a shmup would be my magnum opus, and I would create a work that would be able to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with a Cave or Treasure release. Except Cave and Treasure aren't even making these types of games anymore.

The only shmups I'm aware of that are being released nowadays are either non-traditional (twin-stick shooters), pretty damn content- and feature-rich (Jamestown), or straight arcade ports. Shmups in their "purest" form don't seem to exist as purely home releases. And that's because, as I said, they don't hold up. You have these life and continue systems, and your options are arbitrarily limiting those and frustrating your players, or making them unlimited and having them "beat" the game within 30 minutes, then getting upset at how brief the experience was (especially compared to other games they could've played/bought instead). It's either entirely too punishing, or entirely unrewarding. Play any Cave shmup, and the first level is easy enough to 1 or 2cc for the average gamer. Then the 2nd level and on is pretty much designed to demand that you continue feeding quarters into the machine, either to bulldog your way through, or to keep practicing for 1cc attempts. It's supremely rewarding once you pull off that 1cc, but then you start playing for score and leaderboard rankings, so the quarters keep coming long after you "beat" the game.

The true value is only there for those of us who really enjoy the raw thrill of bobbing and weaving through bullet curtains as the game slows down, ostensibly buckling under the sheer pressure of the madness it's struggling to process on-screen. It looks and feels insane.

And getting to the skill level where that can even be done, or appreciated, is outside the wheelhouse of the vast majority of people out there.

The Dark Souls series is pretty much considered the gold standard for "difficult" in video games these days (Super Meat Boy, I think, was the previous king). But those games are far, far, far more accessible than arguably any shmup, and that's not even taking into account the value for the money in a game that you're likely to sink upwards of 100 hours into before you finish it (the first time! Then it's New Game+!).

I kinda handwaved this earlier, but I mentioned that I owned 9 shmups on 360, not counting digital stuff like Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, and so on. And every single one of those games is top notch. DOJ? Ketsui? Mushihimesama Futari? Even just the soundtrack to Daifukkatsu Black Label is mindblowing.

So my question is, what is there to do with these kinds of games, really? Should we be trying to clone Cave releases? Bring back the older styles of shmups? Take the classic shmup folder and come up with some unique scoring system? Add a new combat gimmick? See how far we can push BulletML in terms of bullet patterns? Go the Jamestown or Tyrian route and add an upgrade/progression system? Go the Undertale route of the shmup as a combat mechanic inside another game? How about Bayonetta, but instead of QTEs you had a little bullet hell minigame?

At this point, if I were to resume working on my shmup, I would probably remove the score counter and see if I can design a fun game that takes combat someplace beyond the tried and true "shoot and dodge."

[AlexMdle]

To be honest, I'd look into indie shmups. There's some serious standout examples of excellent design and novel ideas in them.

[qmish]

there are many people who are tired of bullethell stgs, kinda.

It's strange ecosystem:

inside shmuppers, most prefer danmaku
but outside shmuppers, shmup-liking people prefer classic more

[ciox]

- While it's not clear what CAVE is working on, the director of Treasure's shmups (now employed at M2) has been working on a sequel to Ikaruga since 2014
- Crimzon Clover: World Ignition was a critical (overwhelmingly positive reviews on steam) and commercial (90,000+ owners on steam) success despite sticking to its traditional shmup guns, simply adding a lower difficulty mode and lots of flash for the average player
- viewpoints I've heard about on making 2016 shmups that stay traditional are: removing continues to make people "get it" (seems like it could backfire), much better training modes with challenges and so on (not a bad idea), adding costly but attractive features like branching stages and online co-op (I'm focusing on this one personally)
- removing the score counter feels like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, accomplishes little beyond alienating traditional players and requiring some kind of alternative system for player competition (achievement-based?)

[Xyga]

If you're going to make something very different then yes, go look into indie stuff, because not many people here will welcome criticism of what makes the DNA of Japanese arcade and console shmups.

I don't understand why people who one day got attracted to those for the looks and thrills, played a lot for a while, then kind of unconciously realized it's not really their thing, have to come here to say "let me tell you what is wrong with shmups".
The honest reaction should be to simply quit playing those.

Now don't get me wrong; it's good that you want to create and innovate, but be careful if the motivation comes from a frustration with your personal experience, because it might lead you to create designs that will alienate you the classic/veteran shmups crowd (mostly this community).
Not as a person of course but the game designs you come up with better not go against some of the elementary features of shmups this community is attached to.
Protip: among other things try to avoid the dreaded 'euroshmup' kind of features.

[Rozyrg]

there are many people who are tired of bullethell stgs, kinda.

It's strange ecosystem:

inside shmuppers, most prefer danmaku
but outside shmuppers, shmup-liking people prefer classic more

I also prefer the more classic style, playing those just gives me a different sort of thrill, and they predate certain genre staples I don't like becoming ubiquitous - scoring systems becoming complex to the point of opaqueness, overlong multiform boss battles, overly lenient 'credit-feed-to-win' continue systems and the harsh difficulty spikes they're meant to help soften, emphasis on pretty bullet patterns, etc..

I do love the flashiness and borderline orgiastic visual spectacle of the bullet hell/danmaku type, though.

My advice is just to play as many as you can - new and old - find which one satisfies you the most then dig deep to figure out what it's doing right for you. Do that before you start chucking out the vital organs at random.

- removing the score counter feels like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, accomplishes little beyond alienating traditional players and requiring some kind of alternative system for player competition (achievement-based?)

Score is also the most basic method for incentivizing a specific, optimal or alternate play style. If you don't have this simple, effective way to reward and guide play, you'll need to do it in some other manner. You can't simply have nothing in it's place.

[vgambit]

Score is also the most basic method for incentivizing a specific, optimal or alternate play style. If you don't have this simple, effective way to reward and guide play, you'll need to do it in some other manner. You can't simply have nothing in it's place.

I was thinking something like Monster Hunter's itemization system.

[Rozyrg]

Honestly, it can be no more complicated than say, making increasingly pleasing or melodic sounds to indicate "this is good to do." As long as you're thinking about what all these elements add up to, what you potentially lose by removing certain ones and how you need to make up for that loss, you'll be fine.

If you make a good game, established genre "rules" just don't matter. Look at Compile's stuff - they've had forgiving health systems, RPG/Adventure elements, shops, made vertical shooters that fill a horizontal display - things that would be considered nigh heretical in the traditional arcade context, yet their work is widely considered to be among the best. Their overall design was just good and thoughtful enough that these things didn't diminish the fundamental gameplay, they complimented it.

[wgogh]

I'll never understand the need in modern games to put shops/upgrades on everything. At least for me, keeping the surface simple is far from a bad thing. Personally, i still prefer the arcade/old console titles over the indies, mostly because of the design. The ships are static and you can't even predict where the enemy is aiming, also, mostly of the indies only have that abstract backgrounds or none at all. Well, the arcade ones are more beautiful overall.
Good luck with the project, whatever direction you take. Maybe... you're just in a Modern vs Retrogaming perspective situation.
Sorry my english

[Shepardus]

There's no point in removing the score counter since I doubt it turns off many would-be players. If anything, new players tend not to notice its existence and just see the bullets. Besides, for the most part that along with gimmick mechanics is how devs have been taking their shmups beyond the "tried and true 'shoot and dodge.'" I would experiment with grading systems like in Ikaruga or a million mobile games (Angry Birds level stars, anyone?).

[tiaoferreira]

Well, after all that, I have one certainty: SHMUPS WILL NEVER DIE!

[wgogh]

Well, after all that, I have one certainty: SHMUPS WILL NEVER DIE!

True.
It is a unique experience with a lot of devils in the details...

[Pixel_Outlaw]

The best thing you can do is play many shmups from different eras. Especially sink some time into the stuff from the early to mid 90's.

Bullet hell might gradually take a decline with the saturation of the genre right now.
A lot of young kids are mistaking bullet hell as especially difficult do to a handful of end bosses.

They've never tried to memorize 50 something sections of a Toaplan game while dealing with cheap sniper enemies.

Whatever you choose DO know that Steam is getting plastered with Windows shmups right now.
You might add Linux support to a game release too. It is kind of an untapped market on Steam. (Japan NEVER ports to Linux)

Whatever new system you implement it MUST be simple and it MUST be natural to use.
Nail those two things and you'll be fine. (And don't break scoring by unforeseen consequences)

Oh and have a look at this style of shmup, which is almost unknown:
Metal Hawk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4k3Bif0ETA

[hearto]

Meanwhile I'm working in a shmup with a gradius path system for powerups and a force like powerup. (I'm aware that is a hated mix here) based in old memorize shmups.
The twist is a non-spammable optional mechanic where you could stop the action and think for some seconds what to do, something that go against the philosophy of non-stop action from the genre.
This mechanic is not required to finish the game, but is required for high score runs or optional paths in stages, because of this people more accustomed to rtype/gradius gameplay could play the game without worrying too much about this and the people who want to do hardcore runs could abuse the stop mechanic.

What I'm trying to say is the game stay true to his roots (memorize shmups, where most people play to finish the game than for score) but spice it with an optional score system and a mechanic which changes the gameplay.

I think the best advice for design a shmup in > 2017 is test and test with community, lurk the forums for tips like the most common one about euroshmup healthbars. There is a strong possibility that the mechanics from my game will change over the course of time, hell they already changed A LOT from the first idea, but for that You need FEEDBACK.

[Shepardus]

Does your "stop" mechanic do anything besides pause time? Because that alone sounds more useful to novice to intermediate players than to advanced players who have already planned out and memorized everything and don't need extra time to think about it during the game itself.

[ZacharyB]

Typically, the thing to do when you have a game mechanic that makes the game easier, is to make the forfeiture of its use give more points than if you had used it. This gives players the incentive to not use it, but it's there if they need it.

[hearto]

Does your "stop" mechanic do anything besides pause time? Because that alone sounds more useful to novice to intermediate players than to advanced players who have already planned out and memorized everything and don't need extra time to think about it during the game itself.

Yes, Many of the gameplay elements from the game are designed to be exploited by the stop time. This isn't a stop time bomb like the one from mao mao in Sonic Wings.
The most obvious ones are the frozen stacked bullets like knives from Jojo and the timers from many abilities or the score system who get frozen and extended with stop time.
There is an example of this at the end of video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=252KnlNPHOg

[Shepardus]

Does your "stop" mechanic do anything besides pause time? Because that alone sounds more useful to novice to intermediate players than to advanced players who have already planned out and memorized everything and don't need extra time to think about it during the game itself.

Yes, Many of the gameplay elements from the game are designed to be exploited by the stop time. This isn't a stop time bomb like the one from mao mao in Sonic Wings.
The most obvious ones are the frozen stacked bullets like knives from Jojo and the timers from many abilities or the score system who get frozen and extended with stop time.
There is an example of this at the end of video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=252KnlNPHOg

That makes sense then. I imagine there's a good number of ways you could explore that, especially if you aren't super strict about everything stopping with the time. For example in La-Mulana there's a certain enemy that normally is invisible because it's "too fast" to be seen, but when you use the Lamp of Time to stop time it slows down to normal speed.

Typically, the thing to do when you have a game mechanic that makes the game easier, is to make the forfeiture of its use give more points than if you had used it. This gives players the incentive to not use it, but it's there if they need it.

That's also a lost opportunity, since you're encouraging players not to use the mechanics that distinguish your game from others and which you presumably put time and effort into designing and implementing. It's fine if using your mechanic both makes the game easier and scores better - that's how basic shooting works too. As a designer, you get to define what's "better" and design your scoring system to encourage that style of play.