Who knows about CRTs, PVMs, and BVMs?

[mikejmoffitt]

Dot pitch is for shadow mask, while lines is for Trinitrons; that's what I've rationalized as it's all that makes sense.

[tacoguy64]

Nobody talked about TVL for PC CRTs back then, it was never even a listed/available spec in any technical documentation. Everybody talked instead about the dot pitch.

In theory, aren't they the same/close to the same thing? I've even seen professional monitors brochures that mention the dot pitch.

TVL is seperate from dot pitch. And shadow mask crt's do have a TVL count rating.

With pc monitors, the dot pitch is the distance between the holes in the shadow mask. With the smaller size the dot pitch, the sharper the image would look. Though this was only really ideal for pc monitors where people would be sitting close to them. Presentation monitors like the NEC XP 37 inches had a .85mm dot pitch which would be bad for viewing up close but provide a very nice image when viewing from a further distance.

[Ed Oscuro]

Dot pitch is for shadow mask, while lines is for Trinitrons

No, I've got some old ads for Trinitron PC monitors which advertise dot pitch. It's just that the PC salez industry decided this was a useful thing to emphasize - probably because it suggests how fine text can be drawn, for example, for publishing work, or for more detailed or less eye-straining work generally (on the other hand, font scaling was an issue back then too).

As for TVL vs. native resolution: I agree you wouldn't want to use TVL anymore, because it simply not important compared to many other measures like PPI, not to mention it is set up in a dated and unintuitive way. However the basic concept of measuring sharply contrasting lines is still a part of the basic science of rating sharpness in various industries - with monitors and TVs you still have to talk about lines of resolution when dealing with motion or scaling. The difference is that we can now assume sharp contrast all all points on the image.

I am surprised by Fudoh's claim that there were PC monitors which resolved higher than the TVL spec would suggest...I don't think they were given a TVL spec at all, given that you have to measure an entire unit, not just the chassis or the tube.

[Dragon89o]

Okay, so I am considering other brands outside of Sony's PVM and BVM line for a professional CRT monitor. I'm trying to exhaust all of my options even PC CRT monitors. I see Ikegami has a couple of higher end model monitors that being the Ikegami HTM-2050R and the Ikegami TM20-90RH. The HTM-2050R can do 1080i to 480p so it looks like it lacks the ability to do 240 gaming. While the TM20-90RH I am unsure of but both monitors do 900 TVL. Issue is the HTM-2050 says 900 lines at HDTV so I'd assume it would drop TVL when doing a lower resolution?
Also on their website it looks like they have some flat screen HD profesisonal CRT monitors but they are both 19 inches not 20. They both do 950 lines but I don't know their limits on lower resolutions and if they drop TVL when doing lower resolutions.
So my questions are does anyone know if these monitors drop TVL at lower resolutions? Also is there another 20 inch Ikegami monitor that I haven't brought up that might have more TVL or more resolution options? Also does the TM20-90H do hd gaming? And am I wrong about the HTM-2050R not being able to do 240p?

And does anyone know about JVC monitors? Saw someone post on another forum their JVC professional monitor.

Here is a link to the two newer flat screen hd monitors
http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/h...or_frame1.html

Here is a link to the TM20-90RH
http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/sdtv/tm2090.html

Here is a link to the Ikegami HTM-2050R
http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/htm2050.html

Also another question I have is what is the abbsolute most I should pay for a Sony BVM 24'? Lets say pretty low hours, clean, and recently serviced with it's control unit. Am I correct to assume this model would be within in the top 5 best professional level monitors to use for retro gaming?

[mvsfan]

jvc makes excellent stuff. some of their professional monitors are also flatscreen and come in 4:3.

[Dragon89o]

Well which JVC monitors are good? What are the model numbers and how much do they go for? How do they compare?

[Einzelherz]

Do you just have access to dozens of professional monitors that you get to be this picky? Most of us on here just buy what we can find and are happy with it.

[Dragon89o]

Maybe a bit of both haha? No, but really I don't like to settle for anything less then the best and I like to learn about every option before making a choice to know why it's the best and not simply buying what everyone tells me to buy. If I can't afford it then I will save up until I can afford it. If I can't find it I will simply look for it until I can find it and use something else until then. I enjoy the researching and learning about anything tech related so that is a bit of the fun for me along with the hunt. It makes me appreciate everything I have more that way. Plus if I settled on something then I would feel like I wasted the money I worked hard for. Quality over quantity but that's just me.

Hopefully that didn't come across too forward. Just actually enjoying learning from others on this forum.

[Dragon89o]

Do you just have access to dozens of professional monitors that you get to be this picky? Most of us on here just buy what we can find and are happy with it.

So lets add a bit of luck to your statement too and maybe some money.

So my first professional grade video monitor which is shown at the bottom of my post.
The monitor on the left is the Mitsubishi Mitsubishi CS-40505 which was the previously mentioned tv that I expressed interest in. I figured I would pick that up for free and it would be months-years before I would find a Mitsubishi Megaview. So it was just more of a temporary long term TV. I ended up finding a AM-4201R about two weeks later and getting it. It's the exact Mitsubishi model that I would of wanted too. It's on the right and currently connected only via s-video currently. It needs some TLC which I will start on this Sunday. By opening it up and cleaning it out. It is pretty dirty.

I also have some more professional grade monitors coming in this week. Another one on my top 5 list. The other two I am getting is a buy one get one so I'll sell one off and use the other in my room until I find a better professional grade monitor to replace it. So stay tuned for that. I am on the hunt for quite a few monitors and would love to do some comparisons for everyone. Plus would give me some back up monitors for when ever one fails that can't be fixed.

Also what is everyones top 5 list if they could have any professional grade monitor and lets do a separate top 5 list for top 5 PC CRT options. Give some reasons for each monitor you list. I'm interested to see reasons and the differences between peoples personal top 5 lists.
http://imgur.com/puGlMaA

[tacoguy64]

I saw that you got your hands on that 42' Mitsubishi. Such a good catch especially for how fast you were able to find it. Hope you realized how lucky you are with that.

For my top 5 crt monitors list, I like size. So for me I am going big. In no particular order.

1. Mitsubishi Megaview Pro 42 : That 45' Sony monitor might hold the title for largest crt ever but I like the shadow mask picture for these large crts. Going with the Megaview for its excellent picture quality and flexibility with multiple resolutions.

2. NEC XP37 Xtra: Another large crt monitor that uses shadow mask technology. It has lots of configurable options to mess around using the remote control. This monitor has great multisync capabilities and a very nice looking picture. Very comparable to a similar sized Mitsubishi in terms of picture quality. Played a whole bunch of games on it and never been disappointed with it.

3. Sony BVM D32E1WU: The sharpest monitor of all the large crt monitors. 1000 TVL is only matched by a few other BVMs. Widescreen format and multisync makes it better for newer games that support it and it still decent sized enough when playing in 4:3 mode.

4. Sony BVM D20F1U: I like these 20' inch BVM monitors better for NES games. I heard the smaller 14' inch monitors are really good as well but I love how sharp those scan lines look. Actually anything on these monitors look real good. I just really love how NES games look on these since the scan lines slice through my eyes. So far This is the only situation for me where playing with a smaller monitor is better. The other times I like to lay back on a couch.

5. Sony PVM 29 xxxx : Not sure what the exact model is for this one but I think it was a japan exclusive monitor. It is a really nice 800 TVL PVM. It could only do low res games. Don't know much more about it aside from the pictures I've seen from the Neo forums.

[mvsfan]

Im not so sure i would actually buy that 45" sony monitor if it was available. From what i could read on that flyer, it looks like that monitor weighs 200kg. thats 440 lbs. Its more than twice as heavy as my 32" wega, and the wega is one HEAVY tv.

how would one even begin to move that?

The large mitsubishi monitors probably weigh about half that and would be much easier to manage.

[Dragon89o]

Im not so sure i would actually buy that 45" sony monitor if it was available. From what i could read on that flyer, it looks like that monitor weighs 200kg. thats 440 lbs. Its more than twice as heavy as my 32" wega, and the wega is one HEAVY tv.

how would one even begin to move that?

The large mitsubishi monitors probably weigh about half that and would be much easier to manage.

Well you would get about five people. Lift it onto a wooden dolly. Push it onto a vamp that goes into the back of your U Haul rented truck lol.

I saw that you got your hands on that 42' Mitsubishi. Such a good catch especially for how fast you were able to find it. Hope you realized how lucky you are with that.

For my top 5 crt monitors list, I like size. So for me I am going big. In no particular order.

1. Mitsubishi Megaview Pro 42 : That 45' Sony monitor might hold the title for largest crt ever but I like the shadow mask picture for these large crts. Going with the Megaview for its excellent picture quality and flexibility with multiple resolutions.

2. NEC XP37 Xtra: Another large crt monitor that uses shadow mask technology. It has lots of configurable options to mess around using the remote control. This monitor has great multisync capabilities and a very nice looking picture. Very comparable to a similar sized Mitsubishi in terms of picture quality. Played a whole bunch of games on it and never been disappointed with it.

3. Sony BVM D32E1WU: The sharpest monitor of all the large crt monitors. 1000 TVL is only matched by a few other BVMs. Widescreen format and multisync makes it better for newer games that support it and it still decent sized enough when playing in 4:3 mode.

4. Sony BVM D20F1U: I like these 20' inch BVM monitors better for NES games. I heard the smaller 14' inch monitors are really good as well but I love how sharp those scan lines look. Actually anything on these monitors look real good. I just really love how NES games look on these since the scan lines slice through my eyes. So far This is the only situation for me where playing with a smaller monitor is better. The other times I like to lay back on a couch.

5. Sony PVM 29 xxxx : Not sure what the exact model is for this one but I think it was a japan exclusive monitor. It is a really nice 800 TVL PVM. It could only do low res games. Don't know much more about it aside from the pictures I've seen from the Neo forums.

In response to your list.
1) The biggest CRT ever made is a PVM-4200 (43') not a 45'? Currently my 1# slot is the TV I just picked up. My mind might change as time goes on and I learn but more currently my most preferred.

2) The NEC models are currently in my search list but not sure which one to be exact. Also not sure if I would place it second. I might place it third but who knows.

3) I really like the idea of the 32' BVM but I hear they have a lot of issues and technically the 24' would but a bit more sharp since it has the same amount of TVL but a smaller screen size. Issue is it's a smaller screen size. So I go back n forth on the idea of the 32 vs the 24

4) Sony BVM20F1U seems appealing for a desk monitor but I'm also considering an Ikegami.

Also yeah, I got super lucky. I didn't expect to find one so soon. Thought I'd be searching for 2+ years. Thats why I got the high end consumer model for a family room CRT until I could find a larger professional model capable of doing RGB. You should see how unlucky I am though with everything else not even kidding... lol. My wife jokes that she married into the unluckiness. It's a struggle finding anything I want. Happy it wasn't true for once with this.

[tacoguy64]

I thought I saw the manual for that 45 inch pvm in one of the threads here. Something that big is just too much of a hassle to own. I would love to see how that would look like in person. Probably rare as all hell to find one. Nice to know something like that exist but my limit would be the mitsubishi pro 42. The 37' NEC that i own is already big enough as it is. It would be pretty redundant owning both monitors seeing as how little difference there probably is between them aside from the extra size. Both monitors have a fantastic picture, a bunch of multi-sync settings, lots of inputs, many ways to adjust settings, and they both share all the bad stuff that giant crt monitors have.

The 32' BVM should be good still. Obviously not as sharp if you are sitting up close but with the bigger monitor you are going to be sitting far away so you probably wont really notice much of a difference. Honestly I haven't heard much about the comparisons between the 24' and 32' model BVMs so I can't comment much. From the pictures and videos I have seen of both monitors they both look close enough.

I have seen the pictures of the other 20 inch RGB monitors. The Ikegami and JVC monitors look really nice but I still think the BVMs look best. You'll probably be happy with any of the good 20' rgb monitors. But like people keep saying here, it's really all about preference. And when it comes to preference there really is no clear consensus in this place.

[mvsfan]

i wouldnt buy the 32" BVM simply because its only about 24" in 4:3.

I have a 32" flatscreen tv I use for a monitor, and i am always amazed looking at it next to my 25" CRT TV.

the 25" is about the same height.

As for the 45" TV, another problem with it is that its awkward and front-heavy. sure you can get 5 people, but then they just get in the way of each other.

Tvs are best moved with 2 or 3 people.

[Dragon89o]

I thought I saw the manual for that 45 inch pvm in one of the threads here. Something that big is just too much of a hassle to own. I would love to see how that would look like in person. Probably rare as all hell to find one. Nice to know something like that exist but my limit would be the mitsubishi pro 42. The 37' NEC that i own is already big enough as it is. It would be pretty redundant owning both monitors seeing as how little difference there probably is between them aside from the extra size. Both monitors have a fantastic picture, a bunch of multi-sync settings, lots of inputs, many ways to adjust settings, and they both share all the bad stuff that giant crt monitors have.

The 32' BVM should be good still. Obviously not as sharp if you are sitting up close but with the bigger monitor you are going to be sitting far away so you probably wont really notice much of a difference. Honestly I haven't heard much about the comparisons between the 24' and 32' model BVMs so I can't comment much. From the pictures and videos I have seen of both monitors they both look close enough.

I have seen the pictures of the other 20 inch RGB monitors. The Ikegami and JVC monitors look really nice but I still think the BVMs look best. You'll probably be happy with any of the good 20' rgb monitors. But like people keep saying here, it's really all about preference. And when it comes to preference there really is no clear consensus in this place.

Here is the link for the PVM-4300 manual
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/756743 ... -4300.html

Also I hear a ton of people saying there is a ton of issues with the 32' BVM. I haven't asked exactly what but a lot of people say don't get the 32' but get the 24' because of it.

i wouldnt buy the 32" BVM simply because its only about 24" in 4:3.

I have a 32" flatscreen tv I use for a monitor, and i am always amazed looking at it next to my 25" CRT TV.

the 25" is about the same height.

As for the 45" TV, another problem with it is that its awkward and front-heavy. sure you can get 5 people, but then they just get in the way of each other.

Tvs are best moved with 2 or 3 people.

2-3 people wouldn't be enough I'd say 3-5 at least. If you do 3 they all have to be strong.

The 32' sure only displays about 24' in 4:3 but the 24' only displays about 20'. It's the fact it can do widescreen if you want it to. It's also having the highest TVL count on a professional CRT monitor. The modular aspect of the video cards. Plus it can show over scan which can be a positive because not all 240p games display the same. It was either sega genesis or jaguar that actually doesn't have a cut off like NES does.

btw guess what came in the mail today.
http://imgur.com/8VSOBOK

[sixbynine]

Also I hear a ton of people saying there is a ton of issues with the 32' BVM. I haven't asked exactly what but a lot of people say don't get the 32' but get the 24' because of it.

I’d really like to know what issues these are. I’ve heard some talk about it but nothing specific and not from anyone who owns one. I can attest 2 things. It’s sharp as hell and it runs basically every console you throw at it (including modern ones at 720p or 1080i). You might run into some trouble if you try to run some consolized arcade hardware but haven’t tested that yet.

2-3 people wouldn't be enough I'd say 3-5 at least. If you do 3 they all have to be strong.

I’ve carried it to the 3rd story (2 guys, 29 and 56 years old). We are both anything but strong. It’s absolutely not doable without a sack barrow though, because the handles are useless (it’s really front heavy, you will break your wrist or drop the thing). Just keep the back straight, keep it slow and it’s doable.

[Einzelherz]

Also I hear a ton of people saying there is a ton of issues with the 32' BVM. I haven't asked exactly what but a lot of people say don't get the 32' but get the 24' because of it.

I’d really like to know what issues these are. I’ve heard some talk about it but nothing specific and not from anyone who owns one. I can attest 2 things. It’s sharp as hell and it runs basically every console you throw at it (including modern ones at 720p or 1080i). You might run into some trouble if you try to run some consolized arcade hardware but haven’t tested that yet.

I'm just speculating, but every time I've seen this mentioned (which has all been very recent on this forum) it's just a vague "D32 = bad". It leads me to believe that it's a "fact" that people just parrot, since they're so uncommon that no one making claims owns one.

[juji82]

I have one and It is far from being "BAD"

[Dragon89o]

Also I hear a ton of people saying there is a ton of issues with the 32' BVM. I haven't asked exactly what but a lot of people say don't get the 32' but get the 24' because of it.

I’d really like to know what issues these are. I’ve heard some talk about it but nothing specific and not from anyone who owns one. I can attest 2 things. It’s sharp as hell and it runs basically every console you throw at it (including modern ones at 720p or 1080i). You might run into some trouble if you try to run some consolized arcade hardware but haven’t tested that yet.[/quote]

I'm just speculating, but every time I've seen this mentioned (which has all been very recent on this forum) it's just a vague "D32 = bad". It leads me to believe that it's a "fact" that people just parrot, since they're so uncommon that no one making claims owns one.[/quote]

So the last three posts have all been similar. With out too much research this is what I found from someone who services sony products for I think about 20 years.
They said is the business that owned the 32' CRTs would crank up the luminace way up beyond the recommended settings, which would shorten the lifespan of the monitor. Sad thing is you would have no real idea when buying a 32' BVM how the previous owner ran the monitor. So you could be dropping a lot of money on the monitor and have higher odds of it not lasting as long. The other thing is I don't think that was their only issue but I could be wrong. I have read before somewhere on some forum of people listing it's issues. So I'll end up having to find what they actually said.
Don't get me wrong I'd be tempted to get a 32' if I found a good deal, low hours, and from a trust worthy seller when I had the money to do so. Issue is they would probably sell for more and its a tough choice between the 24' and the 32' I want the 32' but the 24' would arguably be sharper because its the same amount of lines in a smaller screen size. So you have the sharpest monitor vs a slightly less sharp monitor but a better screen size.


Also no one took a guess what came in the mail yesterday!
http://imgur.com/gallery/pWVnYrl/new

[Dragon89o]

No takers lol?

[johndp977]

I’d really like to know what issues these are. I’ve heard some talk about it but nothing specific and not from anyone who owns one. I can attest 2 things. It’s sharp as hell and it runs basically every console you throw at it (including modern ones at 720p or 1080i). You might run into some trouble if you try to run some consolized arcade hardware but haven’t tested that yet.

I'm just speculating, but every time I've seen this mentioned (which has all been very recent on this forum) it's just a vague "D32 = bad". It leads me to believe that it's a "fact" that people just parrot, since they're so uncommon that no one making claims owns one.

The whole "D32 had issues" also made me very curious, as the D32 seems to be simultaneously praised as one of the pinnacles of CRT technology by some, yet also occasionally associated with a vague stigma of unreliability, failure, or otherwise by others.

I apologize in advance if any of this is misleading or simply untrue, and admittedly I haven't scoured the forums here to see if there is more of an explanation going back any number of years. I'm just attempting to share information. But I happened to stumble onto this thread on another forum:

http://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/inde ... -bvm.2847/

And on page 2 one of the posters said the following:

There was a mild scandal around 2002-2003 where all BVM-32E's of a certain vintage had unstable black levels, and I can remember Sony having to send out fixes to calm everybody down. I believe the problem was confined to a single board, but there was much outcry around LA... particularly if you edited at one facility, then did color-correction at another facility, and then did QC somewhere else, and all three looked a little different in the blacks. They eventually solved the problem.

If true, perhaps this is in part a source of the occasional stigma floating around this monitor, and in actuality it may not have had anything to do with the tube itself.

My impression is that this type of word of mouth is almost always grounded in some truth, but at the same time grows more vague and open-ended over time, to the point where that word of mouth is simply perpetuated without concrete fact, as Einzelherz suggested. And ultimately we may have ended up with a negative association that the D32 may not completely deserve, or at the very least isn't based on any concrete facts that have been brought forward. That said, I would be very interested if anyone does have more detailed history about this, as I hope someday to find one of these for myself and would certainly like to know if there genuinely were issues specific to the D32.

[Dragon89o]

There was a mild scandal around 2002-2003 where all BVM-32E's of a certain vintage had unstable black levels, and I can remember Sony having to send out fixes to calm everybody down. I believe the problem was confined to a single board, but there was much outcry around LA... particularly if you edited at one facility, then did color-correction at another facility, and then did QC somewhere else, and all three looked a little different in the blacks. They eventually solved the problem.

Looks like you were able to find something that I didn't run into when I was doing light research on the BVM-32'. I did end up finding something from a pretty solid source. Which I quoted below.

The reason the 32-inch CRTs would fail "prematurely" is because many of the businesses using them were cranking the luminance way up beyond the recommended settings, which shortened the life. They also used to leave them running 24 X 7 so they were always ready to go, which also shortened the CRT life. This particular monitor was gently used for demonstrations and at trade shows.

I found some other comments when I was looking into this monitor but I don't remember what people had said about it but based on what you found and what I found that is still two negatives the BVM-32 has over the BVM-24. It does not mean what so ever you can't get a good fine working condition BVM-32 but there is some chance you get one with a bad board or one that will quickly die on you. You would end up having to be a lot more picky about this monitor and pay more knowing you got it from a good source or if you get lucky and get it for cheap take a chance on it.

Personally I don't think what has been mentioned so far would prevent me from buying one but not interested at this moment in my life. I already have two of my five most desired monitors. A BVM-24 and a Mitsubishi 42' Megaview. When I have money that I can spare I'd take a chance on the 32' BVM because the 24' for me is just too small to be used in a living room enviroment with the tradditional distance people have got accustomed to sitting away from their large LCD monitors. Leaves me desiring the 32' which hopefully would be a bit better. I'ma just end up turning my BVM-24' into a monitor for my computer desk when doing retro gaming and capturing footage.

[Ikaruga11]

There's nothing wrong with the D32. Its just that the D24 is sharper.

[Dragon89o]

There's nothing wrong with the D32. Its just that the D24 is sharper.

Well there is two sources saying how some had bad boards and it was common for people to have bad practices because it would be used in show rooms and could have a shorter life span. The source mentioned above seems like the guy worked in the field. My source came from someone who worked with Sony for 20+ years. Not saying all are bad but maybe more caution needed when buying one.

Also still no guesses what came in the mail last week?

http://imgur.com/gallery/pWVnYrl/new

[tacoguy64]

There's nothing wrong with the D32. Its just that the D24 is sharper.

Well there is two sources saying how some had bad boards and it was common for people to have bad practices because it would be used in show rooms and could have a shorter life span. The source mentioned above seems like the guy worked in the field. My source came from someone who worked with Sony for 20+ years. Not saying all are bad but maybe more caution needed when buying one.

Also still no guesses what came in the mail last week?

http://imgur.com/gallery/pWVnYrl/new

It's a bvm d24e1wu and yes I cheated :p

[Dragon89o]

There's nothing wrong with the D32. Its just that the D24 is sharper.

Well there is two sources saying how some had bad boards and it was common for people to have bad practices because it would be used in show rooms and could have a shorter life span. The source mentioned above seems like the guy worked in the field. My source came from someone who worked with Sony for 20+ years. Not saying all are bad but maybe more caution needed when buying one.

Also still no guesses what came in the mail last week?

http://imgur.com/gallery/pWVnYrl/new

It's a bvm d24e1wu and yes I cheated :p

Haha, zoomed in or checked my account for other posted pictures? =P Figured someone would be able to guess.

[tacoguy64]

I saw it on the neo forum. I would have guessed it right anyways since the size seem about right.
But yeah a very good pick up for you right there. I've seen the phonedork video and that monitor looked glorious!
But I saw that you dont have your systems ready for rgb play.

[KatKya]

I have no first hand experience, but the only reason I've ever claimed that they weren't reliable is most of the ones that show up for sale on ebay have pretty bad purity issues. Whether these are the same two or three monitors continuously making their rounds, I can't say.

[xga]

As of yesterday, I'm now the proud owner of a D32. I took a risk and purchased it sight unseen and in unknown condition for a reasonable amount. After reading the feedback on the D32 here, I was fearing the worst, thinking it would have something very wrong with it e.g. not power on, bad burn in, scratches on the front of the tube, geometry issues, convergence issues and or purity issues.

Even though it's done over 30,000 hours (and perhaps I'm just lucky too), I'm very glad I took the risk in purchasing it as it looks amazing. I've only spent a short amount of time testing it so far, but it is very sharp (I do realise that the D24 is sharper, but I prefer the larger 4:3 image that the D32 provides) and the image is super stable with zero jitter.

I hope to spend some more time with it over the next few days and use a BKM-14L auto set-up probe I have with it.

Those handles on the sides of the D32 are a life saver! Even though it weighs a ton, it's so much easier to move with a buddy.

[Xyga]

30,000 hours isn't that much, well attended most crts can last waaaaaaaay longer than that still looking the tits.