Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Cagar]

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[The Armchair General]

I think a big reason as to why shmups are so niche is because they're so niche if that makes sense. Most people have never even heard of games like Dodonpachi, Mushihimesama, Battle Garegga, Rayforce, ect. The reason why Touhou is the most popular shmup out there is because it's fan works have made it much more well known. I think a good amount of people would play these games if they were just advertised or shared around more.

Sorry if this stuff has been said elsewhere.

[Blinge]

This thread in a nutshell:

This This This.

Whether you agree with Cagar's post or not (I think it's too harsh, and the 'shit restaurant' isn't great): What he's offered is a great insight into the challenges the genre faces if it ever wants to move beyond niche appeal. I don't think shmups need hours of 'content' but I know that's how they're seen by outsiders; especially reviewers and youtubers/streamers with followings.

Unfortunately this sort of review is probably the best you can hope for from someone who isn't invested in the genre.
https://youtu.be/ZCYY-Ic09W0

Shooters have certainly attempted little innovations here and there to try and appeal to a broader audience.
For example Jamestown's already been mentioned, Geometry wars.

Risk of Rain is less popular because everyone's already on The Binding of Issac. It's also a lot more popular than Nuclear Throne anyway.

Risk of rain is a far inferior game. That's all.

Eventually you're going to realize just how sad and how shallow the world really is. You're going to realize that it's actually a really easy fix

This is one of the scariest things I've ever read.

Edit: Alright Shep, I'll tone it down then.
It's just in my nature to return fire.

[Shepardus]

Let's not get carried away antagonizing and assuming malice and/or insanity in others, please.

The Binding of Isaac did quite a bit better than Risk of Rain, which in turn did significantly better than Nuclear Throne. All of them did way better than pretty much every shmup on Steam though.

I'm surprised people haven't mentioned Enter the Gungeon here. It's exactly what you'd get if you blended BoI-esque roguelites and bullet hells (in fact "Bullet Hell" is a more popular tag for the game on Steam than either "Dungeon Crawler" or "Rogue-like"). And that's what the developers were going for, they've talked before about "merging a bullet hell game with a dungeon crawler." If you're wondering how a game would do if it took took bullet hell gameplay but shook up how it was presented, eschewing the typical arcade format for something more palatable to wider audiences, well, Enter the Gungeon is it. And guess what, it's doing really well, selling nearly 300k copies on Steam and that's not counting PS4. They're not super "mainstream" numbers but they're numbers most shmup devs would kill for. The game sold over 200k in its first week, yet on these forums the only mention I've seen of this game is in one buried thread in Off Topic, and one of my own posts earlier in this thread. I think that's a real shame since there are definitely lessons we could learn from it regarding what actually appeals to people, and I'm willing to bet some people here would enjoy the game too. I must admit I haven't played it either but might give it a shot (heh) later on.

[qmish]

I posted it before, but it suits this thread better...

So, there was a relatively big forum where i'm a frequenter and of course there was a thread about shmups. And after some discussions there i gathered data of what "usual gamers" want from shmups:

- prefer health bar instead of life count
- hate being pushed back to checkpoint or level start when you die
- hate starting game from beginning when loose all lives
- would love to have something that will make game more diverse for multiple walkthrough (different routes like OutRun/Darius, or even randomised patterns/levels every time) because it's boring and shitty for them playing the same game over and over trying to learn patterns over and over (and NOPE, they dont give a thing about your complex scoring)
- disagree that game over is game over unless it's permadeath roguelike (double standards?)
- would like to save at every level/start playing from any level
- they honestly think that you, guys, who spend 10,20,50,100+ hours in shmup and then can sit and virtuosly 1CC game are insane/out of mind/have too much time to kill
- wanna have long single player campaign with different levels and everything (and big NOPE to loops, of course)
- demand weapon system like in fps/tps instead of power ups
- constantly whine about lack of A.I. of enemies in shmups
- say that game should have both "mode for normal people" and "for those crazy 1cc guys"

The thing is that it wasn't a forum of you average Uncharted 5: Call of Infamous fans. No, that was damn freaking forum of old-gamers. Though, mainly PC oldgamers. They play Jagged Alliance 2, X-Com: Ufo Defense, Planescape Torment, Doom 1-2 on Ultraviolence (or sometimes at Nightmare), Blood, Warcraft II, Fallout, Carmageddon, Hexen etc. So you can't just go out and call them a bunch of "modern casuals". Yet they criticize shmups for many things and consider them having "simplistic and foolish game design" (if i m not imaginating things) and , yes, that "lack of content" problem.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

I posted it before, but it suits this thread better...

So, there was a relatively big forum where i'm a frequenter and of course there was a thread about shmups. And after some discussions there i gathered data of what "usual gamers" want from shmups:

- prefer health bar instead of life count
- hate being pushed back to checkpoint or level start when you die
- hate starting game from beginning when loose all lives
- would love to have something that will make game more diverse for multiple walkthrough (different routes like OutRun/Darius, or even randomised patterns/levels every time) because it's boring and shitty for them playing the same game over and over trying to learn patterns over and over (and NOPE, they dont give a thing about your complex scoring)
- disagree that game over is game over unless it's permadeath roguelike (double standards?)
- would like to save at every level/start playing from any level
- they honestly think that you, guys, who spend 10,20,50,100+ hours in shmup and then can sit and virtuosly 1CC game are insane/out of mind/have too much time to kill
- wanna have long single player campaign with different levels and everything (and big NOPE to loops, of course)
- demand weapon system like in fps/tps instead of power ups
- constantly whine about lack of A.I. of enemies in shmups
- say that game should have both "mode for normal people" and "for those crazy 1cc guys"

The thing is that it wasn't a forum of you average Uncharted 5: Call of Infamous fans. No, that was damn freaking forum of old-gamers. Though, mainly PC oldgamers. They play Jagged Alliance 2, X-Com: Ufo Defense, Planescape Torment, Doom 1-2 on Ultraviolence (or sometimes at Nightmare), Blood, Warcraft II, Fallout, Carmageddon, Hexen etc. So you can't just go out and call them a bunch of "modern casuals". Yet they criticize shmups for many things and consider them having "simplistic and foolish game design" (if i m not imaginating things) and , yes, that "lack of content" problem.

If we're merely talking about getting people to buy more shmups , yeah I guess the above is relevant. Unfortunately, reading all of that clueless bullshit, seems to me like it would also mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I'd rather play the huge shmups back catalogue that exists than buy "modern" shmups which cater to people who have opinions like the ones you posted.

[qmish]

You mean modern "indie" games?

[SYJourney]

In my opinion, they are niche because they are interactive media in a very "pure" form. To make it very general, it's just you the player making the correct inputs to reach your goal within the game. The presentation can help to "get you into" the game, but it's not the main point, STGs are very focused on the gameplay. Fighting games or FPS are also gameplay-focused, but they "spice things up" with competitive multiplayer.
So why would this make them niche?
Firstly, to really appreciate an STG alot effort is required, you have to put some hours into it. The difficult part is where those hours should come from if you don't know the genre and the game has (comparatively) not enough to offer in terms of presentation.
Secondly, if you look at pretty much all media, you'll see that what's popular is usually not "pure" in this sense. If you take music for example, everyone will say they like to listen to music. But most will not actually like music that does something interesting in the "pure" musical sense. They will like a song because they like the singer, or the presentation of the band or because of the feeling they associate with the song. There's nothing wrong with this, but it makes the industry work in disfavor of the pure form of the media. If classical music didn't have history and social status associated with it, it probably would have become niche too. In the same way only a "niche" will enjoy a game just for it's gameplay.

[pegboy]

If we're merely talking about getting people to buy more shmups , yeah I guess the above is relevant. Unfortunately, reading all of that clueless bullshit, seems to me like it would also mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I'd rather play the huge shmups back catalogue that exists than buy "modern" shmups which cater to people who have opinions like the ones you posted.

Yeah, let's ruin shumps in order to *possibly* sell some a few more games! I'd much rather the genre die completely than appease a bunch of clueless idiots that suck at video games.

[doom_]

... huge shmups back catalogue that exists ...

yeah, that's the good thing about shmups. they used to be huge for long enough to have all these timeless games every potato runs nowadays. so you even get the arcade stuff for free basically with savegames, superplay videos on youtube etc.

Sad thing is, of course, that without some competition the whole scoring-aspect becomes less interesting. This too being a "first world problem" in a way since in principle we have a lot of people on the internet we could always compare our scores with. Some local peers with comparable skill-level would be preferable, though.

you can't have everything I guess.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

that's why we have great forums like this one. I don't see any reason to complain either, there's shittons of awesome games out there, all it takes to get people to play a game with you is make a thread about it and the fun begins!

Also, Rob said it best when he mentioned in one of his hilarious reviews something along the lines of "yeah I suck at tons of games already but give me another one to suck at". Hits th enail on the head...


Getting back to what qmish posted earlier for a moment, one thing I can't comprehend though is that people who regularly play the first two Doom games on a high difficulty level is that how can they not understand that shmups work on exactly the same principles? It's not like you can just breeze through Doom when playing it for the first time...

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

You mean modern "indie" games?

Honestly I haven't played many AAA titles in the last ten years, but everything I've read about them makes me think that I'm justified in staying away from most of them... indie games however, there have been a sizeable number of good ones. Maybe I'm just biased because many of them still use real pixel graphics. Hyper Light Drifter was brilliant, though.

[qmish]

I thought you said smth like "i refuse to play shmups that would fit those demands" which might be those "euroshmups" that most indie guys do.

It's not like you can just breeze through Doom when playing it for the first time...

That's why i think that the reason of their dislike is not challenge, but "having stuff progressive and comfortable". Like having non-linear metroidvanian levels with ability to save if they want and all weapons at once etc.

You might say it's similar to holywar between those who prefer dungeon crawlers where you fight fight fight fight and Arkanum/Fallout style cRPGs which is "oh look you actually role playing any character in this game, so many possibilities"

The problem is that while there is a place under sun for everything, how convince more people like and love pure shmups?..

[Shepardus]

I'd rather play the huge shmups back catalogue that exists than buy "modern" shmups which cater to people who have opinions like the ones you posted.

I agree with this, if preserving the "shmup" genre in name alone requires sacrificing all the values of the games themselves then there's no point.

qmish is right that it's not just the stereotypical casual that doesn't care for shmups and the arcade format, however it should be noted that while those opinions are common they're not universal, nor do all the opinions listed necessarily go together (I myself hate getting sent back a checkpoint after dying). Games like Downwell have found success without lengthy single-player campaigns, FPS-like weapon loadouts, etc. (Downwell is actually quite an arcadey game, it just doesn't have fixed staged), showing that audiences are still out there.

[qmish]

Nothing should be generalised sure.

That also reminds me how king's field/armored core were always treated pretty meh in west and only dark souls got all love.

[Shepardus]

Nothing should be generalised sure.

That also reminds me how king's field/armored core were always treated pretty meh in west and only dark souls got all love.

Yeah, good point. I'm not familiar with what Dark Souls changed over King's Field, but there's certainly an important element to it outside of how the games actually play; even the right game still needs to catch on and convince people to actually give it a chance. And I think that's largely an issue of presentation. People aren't going to be convinced if you simply tell them to replay your game, to go for the 1cc, to learn the scoring system, etc., but that doesn't mean they can't enjoy it, they just don't understand them in terms they're familiar with.

I think most of the pieces are there except for the whole "fixed memorizable stages" thing. People are fine with short games if they're randomized for variety, people are fine with permadeath/getting sent back to the start of the game if there's randomization, people are fine with difficult games that demand an understanding of the mechanics if they're making visible progress through the levels (or they're randomized). Fixed stages that you can learn aren't a bad thing, but many people don't understand that and don't give it the credit it deserves, even though they'd happily learn each hand-designed component used to generate the dungeons in games like Spelunky. Even back in the 90s Psikyo and Raizing found value in randomizing the order of their first few stages to give inexperienced players some extra variety.

[Blinge]

Nothing should be generalised sure.

That also reminds me how king's field/armored core were always treated pretty meh in west and only dark souls got all love.

Yeah, good point. I'm not familiar with what Dark Souls changed over King's Field, but there's certainly an important element to it outside of how the games actually play; even the right game still needs to catch on and convince people to actually give it a chance.

In this example the outside element is far less important. I mean cmon. Just play either game for a few minutes and you'll know immediately why the latter series is far more popular. The slow movement of KF is a real turn off for most people.
This is coming from someone who loves both series.
There's a much bigger market in the west for high fantasy over mech stuff, which explains armored core.
You also have to account for the fact that From Soft were steadily building a reputation for themselves before catching a big break with Demon Souls.

FromSoft's output is a good counter to the "people only like playing movies now, because they're told to" argument.

By and large, gaming isn't a place for purists. Stamp your feet as much as you want, rant about how everyone is wrong. TRU gamerz will try anything, with an open mind.
I'd be a true gamer if I gave MOBAs a chance but I don't. =]

Anyway to echo what's already been said: shmups are gaining more momentum on Steam now than they ever would otherwise so.. *shrug*

[Squire Grooktook]

I gave moba's a chance

It felt like dying

[Shepardus]

In this example the outside element is far less important. I mean cmon. Just play either game for a few minutes and you'll know immediately why the latter series is far more popular. The slow movement of KF is a real turn off for most people.

Ah, I got that impression from the few videos I've seen but wasn't so sure if that impression was accurate.

I lost about a year and a half to MOBAs. I don't regret playing them except for how much time I spent on them at the expense of other games and of life in general. It was quite interesting to follow Dota 2 during some key moments in its development.

I wonder whether things like giving players training mode with all the stages available from the start actually limits shmups' appeal. They're good for players who take their shmups seriously and said people complain when a game makes players jump through hoops to practice sections of the game, but games like Spelunky have turned unlocking level selection into a progression mechanic people can work towards and form goals around without sacrificing the "main" game being about playing it from level 1 to the end in a single session.

Continues are another thing I think shmup devs don't put enough thought into when making games for home platforms. It's understandable when it's a straight arcade port, but even when it's not I feel like people just throw it in because that's what all the other games do, leaving people unfamiliar with arcade games unsure of what to make of it. You don't necessarily have to change the actual functionality of a continue system (though I would consider doing that too), but even presenting continues in a more thematically consistent manner than a sudden "Continue?" prompt could help people understand how not to abuse it.

[qmish]

Why play moba games when you have Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance as ultimate rts PvP?

Ok, i'm joking.

except for how much time I spent on them at the expense of other games and of life in general.

Yes, main reason of bad reputation of Dota and clones is how players who into them often spend hundreds of hours in them exclusively, becoming "nolifers" etc.

Anyway, mobas has huge sponsorship nowodays, that's why it became modern face of cybersport in west instead of quake 3/starcraft/tekken holy trio.



This photo above is from some Dota championship that took place in Minsk, capital of Belarus. I wish shmup superplays would ever has such audience. Though, just like MMORPGs, mobas also attract "non-gamers" because of social elements.

[xorthen]

Shmups are no longer niche. That has changed as of recently. Lots of people know about them nowadays.

[Opus131]

Out of everything that has been said here, i think the most egregious thing is the ignorance of reviewers/journalists. I can understand if modern kids who haven't experienced the arcade era have an hard time understanding shmups but reviewers should really know better. There was a time where i used to think journalists gave good reviews to bad games because they were corrupt but now it seems a lot of them simply have no real understanding of this medium, which boggles my mind. Even if the journalists or reviewers don't like a particular genre they should at least know what it is.

[drunkninja24]

Shmups are no longer niche. That has changed as of recently. Lots of people know about them nowadays.

Knowledge that genre exists =/= genre no longer being niche

[qmish]

Out of everything that has been said here, i think the most egregious thing is the ignorance of reviewers/journalists.

This. Many gaming sites I visit nearly totally ignore shmups, even such "important news" like Cave ports etc., not even mentioning doujin territory.

Also, when , you know, those articles like "best games of the year", shmup never getting mentioned or represented for vote even if it has about 100 games mentioned, not just 5-10-20.

[Shepardus]

I can't really blame news outlets at this point for not giving shmups much coverage, as there's not enough interest in them to warrant much coverage. Even "big" news like CAVE ports aren't things the average reader cares about at all relative to the huge amount of other things that they can cover. Chicken and egg, etc.

[qmish]

Yeah instead of making people learn things they just post what attract more readers. Business.

[Opus131]

That doesn't explain their utter ignorance when they DO cover them.

[Mimeslayer]

The ignorance likely stems from most game journalists having no idea about the shmup genre and what it's all about and frankly not caring enough to learn. Even if/when they do make mistakes, who's going to care? The shmup fandom is comparatively tiny to most other genres, and really unless you're hardcore into the genre it seems to me like most other gamers really don't give a shit.

[Shepardus]

"Ignorance" to us, but not to their readers. I'm guessing that most readers don't want to be lectured on how to play games "properly" anyway and want to be told how a game plays from their perspective. Frankly, it's the game's responsibility to communicate how it's supposed to be played and the appeal of doing so.

[Cagar]

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