XRGB-mini Framemeister

[screamingtrees]

Has anyone measured the delay time when a game switches from 240p to 480i (and vice versa) with the new beta FWs? I noticed something about this in the (Google translated) changelog for beta version 2.02: "in a game machine that breaks the synchronization signal at the scene switching often the moment, black-out by re-recognition of the signal is reduced". And...is this related to SYNC_TIME?

[zakruowrath]

Has anyone measured the delay time when a game switches from 240p to 480i (and vice versa) with the new beta FWs? I noticed something about this in the (Google translated) changelog for beta version 2.02: "in a game machine that breaks the synchronization signal at the scene switching often the moment, black-out by re-recognition of the signal is reduced". And...is this related to SYNC_TIME?

I think it may be a little faster, using Pokemon Stadium 2 on the N64, it took 4 seconds to go from the 480i menus to the 240p mini games mode and 4 seconds to go back to the 480i menus. Same with going to Battle Now from the 480i menus. In Perfect Dark, same results it took 4 seconds to go from the 480i logos to the 240p menu screen. And from my 64Drive menu in 480i to a 240p game like Mario Kart 64, same 4 seconds. Of course it also depends on your TV reestablishing the HDMI handshake from the framemesiter, so results may vary.

Now to get it to 2 seconds or instant if possible.

[austin532]

Hate to sound like Mr. Negative but that is not going to happen. I would be more than happy with a 1-2 second delay but yeah.....probably not going to happen until the next XRGB is released.

All the Sync Time feature does is just delay the time when the screen does the HDMI handshake. It's best to leave it a 3 as 10 and 100 causes problems.

[zakruowrath]

Hate to sound like Mr. Negative but that is not going to happen. I would be more than happy with a 1-2 second delay but yeah.....probably not going to happen until the next XRGB is released.

All the Sync Time feature does is just delay the time when the screen does the HDMI handshake. It's best to leave it a 3 as 10 and 100 causes problems.

I agree, the sync time is just delaying the inevitable sadly. I think the good thing is for me at least, most the systems I use the XRGB Mini for are 240p only anyway and the N64 UltraHDMI I'm getting in the near future has instant resolution change so, that fixes that problem

[austin532]

Hope someone creates a HDMI PS1 similar to that. It has plenty of games that switch to 480i.

[screamingtrees]

alright thanks :3

[africamagical]

I have FBX's profiles loaded up and they look great, with RGB i can actually play super mario 64 on my rgb modded 64, i was just curious why the greens only show 1 like shade if i use svideo or composite?

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly but as far as I know FBX's profiles are made for RGB only, so composite or svideo might not be fully compatible. Secondly I think his profiles are made with the Framemeister set to DVI in mind. Differences between HDMI and DVI output were already discussed several pages ago.
Last but not least: Never forget that some options like resolution, HDMI/DVI, scanlines, RGB FULL/LIMITED... are not being saved by profiles and therefore need to be set manually.

i hear ya on the other variables, but the RGB input looks great, it is just the s video and composite has like no green variation in mario 64, it is all nuke green, so much so i can't tell when the floor ends and the walls start
without the framemeister this problem isn't present, so i assume it is just his profiles fixing settings on the RGB input and not the other 2

[FBX]

I have FBX's profiles loaded up and they look great, with RGB i can actually play super mario 64 on my rgb modded 64, i was just curious why the greens only show 1 like shade if i use svideo or composite?

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly but as far as I know FBX's profiles are made for RGB only, so composite or svideo might not be fully compatible. Secondly I think his profiles are made with the Framemeister set to DVI in mind. Differences between HDMI and DVI output were already discussed several pages ago.
Last but not least: Never forget that some options like resolution, HDMI/DVI, scanlines, RGB FULL/LIMITED... are not being saved by profiles and therefore need to be set manually.

The DVI versus HDMI seems to be an issue with video capture. For some reason, they come out looking off in one direction or the other on primarily green colors (HDMI shows up nuked, while DVI shows up dulled and slightly more accurate). My profiles are mostly focused on the scaling aspects, so I'd hope people would tune the color settings to their personal tastes.

[Everblue]

I have a question about something that has been nagging me since I got the Framemeister. When using a x5 PC engine profile (from FBX's collection) @ 1080p, shouldn't the picture be slightly bigger than the screen's vertical height (240p x 5)? I am asking this because it displays with borders on the top and bottom. Which is, strange.

Thanks!

[Fudoh]

On the PCE the number of lines actually used by a game vary a lot. You'll find titles using all 240 lines, but also lots of titles using more like 224 lines only - similar to the MD or SFC.

[Everblue]

On the PCE the number of lines actually used by a game vary a lot. You'll find titles using all 240 lines, but also lots of titles using more like 224 lines only - similar to the MD or SFC.

Aaah ok that makes sense, thanks.

[FBX]

I have a question about something that has been nagging me since I got the Framemeister. When using a x5 PC engine profile (from FBX's collection) @ 1080p, shouldn't the picture be slightly bigger than the screen's vertical height (240p x 5)? I am asking this because it displays with borders on the top and bottom. Which is, strange.

Thanks!

I haven't done any PC Engine profiles, so likely you got that from one of the other members.

[Everblue]

Yup you are right. Time is nigh to make a PC Engine profile

Although... it seems Megadrive settings are good for PC Engine and vice versa.

[jdawg131]

First post. Finally pulled the trigger this week. Ordered the XRGB Mini along with the Switchy 21, Pro RGB cables for the SNES and Saturn, and a D-Terminal female adapter from Solaris Japan. Then ordered a (JP-21) RGB stereo cable for my Genesis 1 from Retro Console Accessories (eBay). Here is what I'll have setup:

SNES - RGB
Genesis - RGB
Saturn - RGB
PS2 - (Monster Cable) Component (w/ D-Terminal adapter)
N64 -(Monster Cable) S-Video
Wii - HDMI (Sewell adapter to keep it 480p to the XRGB)

Down the road, I want to pick up the Toro VGA for my Dreamcast. Just need to let the funds replenish. I'm guessing that I'll also need 1x SCART cable and 1x SCART to JPN-21 adapter cable. Please let me know if I'm incorrect.

Also debating if I want to add a Component switch to get rid of the Wii's HDMI adapter. Holding off due to funds and a lack of space for it. Not really sure if it'd be worth it in the end. Thoughts?

It all should be here by early next week. I cannot wait to get it all connected and tested (using FBX's 4x 1080p profiles). Really want to use scan lines.

[jdawg131]

The XRGB Mini and most of the cables arrived yesterday from Solaris Japan. Definitely digging the three day express shipping from Japan to Hawaii.

FBX - your profiles are awesome. I truly thank you for the amount of work that you put into them. If you ever get the chance, I'd be ecstatic if you can do one for the Saturn. I used your GEN Universal 4x profile and changed the ZOOM_H_POS setting to 27; the left side of the screen was being cut off.

austin532 - your scanline settings are fantastic. I use the 70 / 96 combo for the Saturn, N64, and SNES. Having issues with the PS2 though. On 480i, if I raise the INT_LINE above 20 the screen starts to flicker terribly (w/ both RGB and Component). I can get the INT_SMOOTH set to 96 without issue. On 480p, the scanlines really don't even appear. They just add slightly gray lines to solid colors.

As others have mentioned, Component cables do add a bit of noise when using the XRGB Mini. I tested both RGB and Component/D-Terminal last night on the PS2. Stuck with Component, so that I can get 480p and keep the SNES connected. The color on the PS2 does run a bit hot (over saturated). I had to use the recommended settings on the Junkerhq.net page to tone them down a bit. Have to say that Fire Pro Wrestling Returns and Wrestle Kingdom 2 looked fantastic in 480i (w/ scanliness) afterwards. Really just need to narrow down the PS2 480i flickering issue when raising INT_LINE above 20, and figure out why I can't get proper scanlines when using 480p.

[televator]

unrelated topic

Hello fudoh,

I'm a noobie here, obviously by my post count, but not a noobie to the FM and picture processing for games in general. I have to thank your own reviews on retro gaming hazard for much of that. I just thought I'd ask you directly about one detail in your impressions of the OSSC in regards to the framemeister.

You said the framemeister is a 4:2:2 processor. However, I found this document online of the same processor inside FM that appears to say it is a 4:4:4 processor.

http://tft-lcd.googlecode.com/svn/trunk ... 5_mrvl.pdf

88DE2750 has multiple color space converters at various points in the data path. All the color space converters are fully programmable - implemented by 3x3 matrix multiplication and 3x1 vector addition and can be used for any linear color space conversion - RGB to YCbCr, YCbCr to RGB, YCbCr601 to YCbCr709 etc through appropriate programming of the 9 coefficients (3x3 matrix) and the 3 offsets (3x1 matrix). Color space conversion works in 4:4:4 domain.

Sorry, if this belongs in a PM conversation. Being new, I don't appear to be able to send PMs yet (or I just don't know how), and please correct me if I'm mistaken or misread the document.

[Shuco13]

austin532 - your scanline settings are fantastic. I use the 70 / 96 combo for the Saturn, N64, and SNES. Having issues with the PS2 though. On 480i, if I raise the INT_LINE above 20 the screen starts to flicker terribly (w/ both RGB and Component).

You have to set your mini to MOVIE. The issue you described usually happens when the Framemeister is set to PICTURE when it's processing interlaced content.

On 480p, the scanlines really don't even appear. They just add slightly gray lines to solid colors.

Scanlines are generelly very thin on 480p input. Make sure you use a profile which is integer scaled for 480p.

As others have mentioned, Component cables do add a bit of noise when using the XRGB Mini. I tested both RGB and Component/D-Terminal last night on the PS2. Stuck with Component, so that I can get 480p and keep the SNES connected. The color on the PS2 does run a bit hot (over saturated). I had to use the recommended settings on the Junkerhq.net page to tone them down a bit.

Stay away from the junkerhq.net page. It's completely outdated and has never been updated. I know it might be too much to ask but you better read through the thread and check out the latest acknoledgments.

[Fudoh]

@televator: I don't doubt that the Marvell isn't capable of full internal 4:4:4 processing, but if that's the case, then Micomsoft didn't utilize it. Maybe they chose to save memory and bandwith by reducing the whole A/D section to 4:2:2 YCbCr.

[televator]

@televator: I don't doubt that the Marvell isn't capable of full internal 4:4:4 processing, but if that's the case, then Micomsoft didn't utilize it. Maybe they chose to save memory and bandwith by reducing the whole A/D section to 4:2:2 YCbCr.

Would there be a way to tell by looking at data lines on the FM's board? Thanks for the reply.

[jdawg131]

austin532 - your scanline settings are fantastic. I use the 70 / 96 combo for the Saturn, N64, and SNES. Having issues with the PS2 though. On 480i, if I raise the INT_LINE above 20 the screen starts to flicker terribly (w/ both RGB and Component).

You have to set your mini to MOVIE. The issue you described usually happens when the Framemeister is set to PICTURE when it's processing interlaced content.

On 480p, the scanlines really don't even appear. They just add slightly gray lines to solid colors.

Scanlines are generelly very thin on 480p input. Make sure you use a profile which is integer scaled for 480p.

As others have mentioned, Component cables do add a bit of noise when using the XRGB Mini. I tested both RGB and Component/D-Terminal last night on the PS2. Stuck with Component, so that I can get 480p and keep the SNES connected. The color on the PS2 does run a bit hot (over saturated). I had to use the recommended settings on the Junkerhq.net page to tone them down a bit.

Stay away from the junkerhq.net page. It's completely outdated and has never been updated. I know it might be too much to ask but you better read through the thread and check out the latest acknoledgments.

Shuco13 - I'm using FBX's profiles which I've just found out are not integer scaled (read that it had to do with the PS2 games not really having a set standard for centering/timing). That would make sense for the 480p issue then. For the 480i flickering issue, the profile was set for Natural. Switching it to Movie didn't change a thing. I've tried both the Sharp and Blur 480i profiles from FBX. The only way to damn near minimize the flickering is with INT_LINE set to 0, and INT_SMOOTH set to 127. As soon as I turn off the scaliness, the flickering completely goes away. Very weird.

I only used Junkerhq to help tame the over saturated picture. It was blinding and causing a headache. All other settings are from FBX's profiles or Implant Games (their How To Youtube videos).

With that being said, does anyone have an integer based profile for the PS2? For both 480i and 480p.

[Fudoh]

Would there be a way to tell by looking at data lines on the FM's board? Thanks for the reply.

no.

[Fudoh]

With that being said, does anyone have an integer based profile for the PS2? For both 480i and 480p.

The Mini has a standard x2 integer mode for all 480i and 480p sources. You can access it with a button on the remote. The AR will turn out a little wide, but you can adjust that afterwards.

[televator]

Would there be a way to tell by looking at data lines on the FM's board? Thanks for the reply.

no.

Hm, alright. Is there a spec sheet or something somewhere that you can direct me to that indicates the internal color space conversion of the FM then? I'd really appreciate it.

[jdawg131]

With that being said, does anyone have an integer based profile for the PS2? For both 480i and 480p.

The Mini has a standard x2 integer mode for all 480i and 480p sources. You can access it with a button on the remote. The AR will turn out a little wide, but you can adjust that afterwards.

Would I need to set all of the settings to default prior? While using the profile, I turned off Zoom and set it to Standard X2. It changed the screen size, but it still didn't help with the scanlines. The screen flickers like crazy when I turn them on and drop INT_SMOOTH below 127 (found that this setting is actually the primary one causing the flickering and not INT_LINE like I initially thought). The other issue is that the scanlines lines are uneven; which I assume is a good indicator that it is not properly integer scaled.

I apologize for the amount of excess questions. Very new to the XRGB Mini. Fortunately, I haven't run into any issues with the other systems. It's just the PS2 - which seems to be pretty common around the net.

[FBX]

Shuco13 - I'm using FBX's profiles which I've just found out are not integer scaled

They have since been redesigned to be integer scaled in 1080p with uniform scanlines for progressive mode. This is mentioned in the instructions under the Feb 20th, 2016 changes/updates notes. I do not recommend using scanlines for interlaced mode because of the flickering issue.

[austin532]

jdawg131, the scanline settings were not designed to be used with 480i games. I never created any yet for them as frankly 480i games don't produce the same scanline look that 240p games do. I highly recommend that you don't use them as you will be cutting out half of the image. If you haven't noticed already, I am more about authenticity rather than getting the sharpest picture.

If you do want to use them on let's say a 480i game that was originally a 240p game than that makes more sense. In that case I'd say that 70 LINE and 111 SMOOTH is about the best you are going to get. The LINE does not seem to effect the SMOOTH as much like it does with 240p. Anything below 105 SMOOTH will result in the flicker effect as you mentioned.

Unfortunately the Frameister has a bug with scanlines at 480p and appear too thin. Plus if you are using profiles one of the scanlines will be off.

[Fudoh]

Hm, alright. Is there a spec sheet or something somewhere that you can direct me to that indicates the internal color space conversion of the FM then? I'd really appreciate it.

no, but it's very obvious if you take a look at the results and compare them to a processor that actually does 4:4:4 upscaling in 1080p mode.

[jdawg131]

jdawg131, the scanline settings were not designed to be used with 480i games. I never created any yet for them as frankly 480i games don't produce the same scanline look that 240p games do. I highly recommend that you don't use them as you will be cutting out half of the image. If you haven't noticed already, I am more about authenticity rather than getting the sharpest picture.

If you do want to use them on let's say a 480i game that was originally a 240p game than that makes more sense. In that case I'd say that 70 LINE and 111 SMOOTH is about the best you are going to get. The LINE does not seem to effect the SMOOTH as much like it does with 240p. Anything below 105 SMOOTH will result in the flicker effect as you mentioned.

Unfortunately the Frameister has a bug with scanlines at 480p and appear too thin. Plus if you are using profiles one of the scanlines will be off.

FBX and austin532 - thanks guys. Looks like both of you are already well aware of the issues that I'm experiencing with the PS2. I've configured scanlines for both 480i and 480p that I somewhat like. I'll probably head your guys' advice and just forgo scanlines with the PS2. It just sucks, because I play a lot of old school Capcom and SNK games. The PS2 has a ton of pretty solid complications; a good bit tend to be more arcade accurate than the old Saturn and Dreamcast versions.

Regardless, I cannot thank the two of you guys enough. I've been blown away with the results on the Saturn, SNES, N64, and PS2 when playing PS1 games (The Street Fighter II Collection looks simply stunning). Cannot wait to connect the Genesis tomorrow when my RGB cable arrives. I truly appreciate your efforts.

[RagingAvatar]

Anyone have any solution for tate mode on XRGB-Mini?

[ras2a]

Hi guys,

Totally new here and was hoping to get some assistance with my new XRGB and best set up for Amiga 1200. I just received it in the post and connected it up as follows:
Amiga 1200 > SCART > Euro SCART to DIN adapter (purchased from retro gaming cables on eBay) > XRGB Mini > HDMI > LG LCD TV

Bear with me, as I'm a total noob when it comes to screen modes and resolutions, but I purchased the device after scouring the web for the best value for money device that could also provide decent scanlines (I literally have no room for a CRT).

Would anyone mind sharing their settings/set-up if they also have an Amiga?

Thanks a lot guys, I really do appreciate any help you can provide?

Thanks a lot guys
ras