the best players on shmups.system11.org are....

[Squire Grooktook]

Why are the people who claim to be casuals that don't care for getting good always the ones that get offended if someone dares to imply they are in fact not good?

Nobody is doing either. There's no offense taken and I find nothing upsetting. I am more likely to laugh at that Starcraft comment, if anything.

[chum]

this discussion appears to have started due to me so may I remind you that I don't do this at all...?

you guys make it sound like there's some sort of charade going on among skilled players but I can guarantee you that most people are just being honest and are aware that what they're doing usually isn't that special. skill can only carry you so far and to be truly accomplished at a game you have to put in massive amounts of effort, almost noone wants to do this.

i feel pride and happiness in regards to my accomplishments, but that's exactly the point, a 2-all for example does not feel like much of an accomplishment at my level because the amount of effort that goes into it is completely dwarfed by the effort that goes into mastering a game.

humility is honesty. pride and bragging can also be honesty. you should trust your peers. i don't care if someone thinks i'm arrogant.

[Drake]

copypaste

Whenever a player says they suck, it is never from an absolute reference frame. It's from the frame where they're comparing themselves to whatever is above them and what they personally think they should be able to accomplish. When you don't achieve that usually-lofty standard (which is often), you get "wow I suck" because the player expects themselves to be able to not die on certain patterns, or be able to keep a chain going, or achieve some certain score, or whatever. It doesn't matter whether or not you're new or you're at WR tier; half of the issue here is that the better you are the more critical you will be of your more minute failures, whereas newer players are more concentrated on their overall ability to do anything at all. There is a clash between what they mean by "I suck" and what you think "I suck" means that needs to be understood when you're in the midst of a community of players who are mostly better than you.

The fact of the matter is nobody intends to make newer players feel bad, and more importantly it has nothing to do with any other players at all. It's easily understandable why you would think that better players casually saying they suck is somewhat esteem-dropping when you compare their play to yours, and it isn't immediately obvious to new players that they're only talking about some completely relative standard that they're comparing themselves to. There aren't any signs anywhere saying "RELATIVE TO WHAT I THINK I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO". Hopefully after it's pointed out what they actually mean when they say "I'm so bad at this game", you'll stop perceiving the personal over-standards of other people as something for you to compare yourself to.

You don't have the proper context. If you were totally aware that people saying "derp I suck" is generally about their own play relative to more of their own play, then saying you feel super conscious about your not-as-good play is like, "well stop that". You're inserting yourself into others' frame of reference and it would be only your own fault for feeling bad about it.

---

This doesn't necessarily apply to this exact scenario since this is more about comparison to higher-level players and being capable of perceiving the actual difference in skill between them, but it should get the gist across. Saying "I'm bad / not good / etc" as self-commentary doesn't and never has referred to some sort of objective measure, regardless of skill level.

[Squire Grooktook]

this discussion appears to have started due to me so may I remind you that I don't do this at all...?

Trust me, you're post was fine. I didn't even see your post when I made my comment (I only saw Blinge's and one other guys response), and when I did see it I thought it was fine.

you guys make it sound like there's some sort of charade going on among skilled players but I can guarantee you that most people are just being honest and are aware that what they're doing usually isn't that special.

Yes, most are fine. Believe me, I'm not trying to indite the good players here or anyone in particular.

But, like all aspects of human life, some people fall into some very...strange ways of thinking.

For example, reread that Evo quote I mentioned. Notice the inherent contradiction between "above average" and "evo top 5". I understand the mindset, and have no problem with it, but either poor communication or a lack of critical analysis of that ideal leads to a rather derpy expression of it. The Starcraft one is totally off the wall though.

Again, nothing to get upset about, but the lack of logic is something that I find notable, in an offhand sort of way.

You don't have the proper context. If you were totally aware that people saying "derp I suck" is generally about their own play relative to more of their own play,

I do actually.

I'm totally fine with someone saying "this run is bad" on their ketsui 2-all because they played totally for survival. As an stg player, I understand the context and I understand what they mean, though I might not if I weren't. That I'm fine with, you don't have to write a million paragraphs to express what you mean like I do :3

It's the stuff like that Starcraft quote, which was not said in a context that made it make sense (trust me, I was there), that I consider totally illogical and lol worthy.

[chum]

But, like all aspects of human life, some people fall into some very...strange ways of thinking.

For example, reread that Eve quote I mentioned. Notice the inherent contradiction between "above average" and "evo top 5". Again, nothing to get upset about, but the lack of logic is something that I find notable, in an offhand sort of way.

Not trying to defend the quote but think about the differences in psychology between top players and casual players.

to be a top player you adopt a totally different mindset. being critical, for one, is pretty much essential to move forward. so that aspect being part of a skilled players psychology is logical. another thing that may come into play in your example (if not, it comes into play other times) is that someone who puts a lot of time into their game might notice that very few other people are, so they simply tune out everyone who isn't dedicating themselves to their game. if they call themselves average in such a context it might actually make sense.

i don't self deprecation is very inspiring but i think there's a reasonable explanation as to why people engage in it. Drake's post explains a lot, but maybe someone does it cause that's just how they are, maybe they're depressed, maybe they're indifferent, maybe they're trolling. i noticed for a while some people would do it more or less to "fit in" (just my observation, which i may have been wrong about) but i don't see that anymore.

[Squire Grooktook]

Not trying to defend the quote but think about the differences in psychology between top players and casual players.

He wasn't actually a top player though, actually a fairly casual/low level player who I could easily body myself IIRC.

to be a top player you adopt a totally different mindset. being critical, for one, is pretty much essential to move forward. so that aspect being part of a skilled players psychology is logical.

That's fine, but you can still also understand, logically, what the concepts you talk about mean.

For example, one should know, logically, that there is no universal metric of skill. That all skill is relative. Therefore what you call "bad" is not necessarily so and only useful for your own frame of reference. Likewise even if you're a wr holder for the hardest scoring game in the world, you could still be "bad" compared to aliens that have superhuman reflexes, cognitive ability, and dexterity.

Now you might say "well surely he knew that, he just didn't say as much", however I have been taught to have a slightly more skeptical approach to most peoples intelligence, and the absolutely lol shouting matches I've seen some people engage in on this topic (and many other topics) over the internet (again, from people who weren't particularly notable/accomplished players anyway) leads me to believe that a lot of people just aren't that critically receptive, and really haven't put that much thought into the concepts they dogmatically argue about on the internet.

So long story short, if you're thought process is like the one you describe, cool. All well and good. And I've yet to see anyone here express that thought process in a less then agreeable way (at least, not that I can remember). My original statement was just a general one based on some of the more extreme arguments I've witnessed over 10 years of internet. Some of that stuff is hilariously bad and doesn't often come from particularly great players either.

[chum]

haha well that isn't a problem is it? just random people being silly, nothing new there. if you don't have much experience with a medium, or a style of game or anything, there's a higher chance you'll say something nonsensical, because you haven't made sense of your surroundings or what you're doing yet. just bring out the popcorn and enjoy the show, i say.

plus people being influenced by better players is a very real thing and i'm still torn about if i think that's healthy or not sometimes. if you adopt their standards as your own that might really kill your motivation to improve because it'll just feel too insurmountable and it'll stand in the way of simple naive happiness of playing.

[Squire Grooktook]

lust bring out the popcorn and enjoy the show, i say.

Ha ha, now that's what I like to hear ^_^

plus people being influenced by better players is a very real thing and i'm still torn about if i think that's healthy or not sometimes. if you adopt their standards as your own that might really kill your motivation to improve because it'll just feel too insurmountable and it'll stand in the way of simple naive happiness of playing.

Yeah. Realistically, I think it probably varies from person to person. Some might find it inspiring, while others might find it depressing. I think the only thing one can truly do is be introspective and understand what you want to get out of a game.

[gimebe]

Bad player with a shitty Ketsui 2-ALL (Omote 294mil, Type-B) reporting in.

I think the western STG community has low standards for what is considered impressive and an uninformed idea of how "good" a player needs to be to reach a basic clear of a difficult game.

There are virtually no "middle class" players in the west. Watch a low-scoring replay by a no-name Japanese player, or tune in to one of those arcade streams when various guys are playing - and you'll find that somewhat mediocre (in terms of "talent" - worlds apart from SPS/ISO/etc, and even far, far below the west's strongest) players are 2-ALLing CAVE games. You might see them going into seconds loops with low scores, working on highly refined routes with an almost overt level of safety, and barely clear the game while making a minimal amount of difficult-looking maneuvers.

Obviously difficult, long 40+ minute games are not easy to clear. But your name doesn't need to begin with C or P to reach them, if you are willing to practice enough and play smart to the best of your ability, like what Project Ako mentioned earlier. I'm not sure why the west has so few people determined to 2-ALL despite their shortcomings as a player, but I do think there is enough talent in the west for there to be at least 10-20 times as many players with Ketsui Omote clears than there are right now, for example.

On a related note, writing this rant reminded me of the part in Prometheus's Full Extent of the Jam where he says he doesn't believe any player has a natural talent for shmups. Now, coming from a guy of his level you might think that he's talking out of his ass and that he's blind to his talent - but having talked to various players and tried playing these games myself (even if only at a low level) I would say that he is completely right in a sense. While talent at some level obviously is a factor, when it comes to STGs I've heard of no one with "natural talent" the way a person would be talented in sports, or in music where even young children with minimal experience can already show exceptional potential. Even absolutely ridiculous players such as chum tell stories of how they played for a long time, were walled by games, etc etc until at some point (often after years of playing STGs casually, and hundreds of hours into focusing on a particular game) they "leveled up" and started improving and having the potential to reach higher goals. That doesn't mean talent doesn't exist - but I do believe that in STGs, whatever talent you have is buried deep and needs to be forcibly dug out through playing and practicing to your best ability for as long as needed - and that goes for scrubs and superplayers alike. Some novices might start showing talent after only playing for a months, while for others it might take years in the trenches.

Personally, I started playing in 2012 and spent years being casual, started tryharding (very, very badly) in early 2015 and now, over 1000 hours of playtime in the genre since then, it feels like I only started "improving" in a big way a couple of months ago - for the better part of 2015, I clocked 500+ hours into Crimzon Clover: World Ignition in Original and Boost, reaching only a mediocre Type-Z score in Original and a slightly less mediocre one in Boost in that time. I'm a little stupid and wasn't practicing efficiently at the time - a smarter player with potentially more talent could be faster, or a worse player might be slower. But I do think every player has room for improvement, and that playing smart and hard is the only way to find out what the extent of that potential improvement is.

[Strikers1945guy]

Where is GUS these days

[Bananamatic]

he appeared when i started playing futari ultra and left when i went back to sdoj

should i break the seal again

[SMC]

Where is GUS these days

He's very busy not streaming

[CloudyMusic]

he appeared when i started playing futari ultra and left when i went back to sdoj

should i break the seal again

This community already has more than enough socially-maladjusted shut-ins so no

[Mehmet]

-

[Shepardus]

I think it's good for people to recognize the endless possibilities for improvement that lie before them. Even the best players often have plenty to improve on. This is true of many disciplines such as playing music instruments, not just shmups.

It's unhealthy, however, to take it to the point where you refuse to acknowledge your own achievements or even belittle those of others. Shmups are first and foremost (well, after the fun of shooting and dodging) about your own improvement, and celebrating improvement and its fruits is important. The existence of players better than you or of unfulfilled score potential shouldn't undermine how far you yourself have come. Your greatest accomplishments now may seem small and feeble in comparison to the world's best or to the future you, but they're big right now, compared to your past self, so take some pride in them before setting off towards your next goal.

[Eaglet]

*standing ovation*

[ProjectAKo]

So somewhat on topic, instead of the Japanese list of shmups difficulty, I think we should make the list of WR difficulties and WR information, because those scores and runs, many of which are for forgotten games with very little surviving information, are a lot more interesting imo. Also it might be useful for anyone who's looking for a random game to learn or to hunt the WR of.

You could rank the WRs based on overall difficulty/execution, the RNG factor (this will multiply the number of runs you have to do ON TOP OF even just learning the game fully), and the "mystery" factor for games where we have no idea how the score was even achieved.

Gemant was making his ARCA list but unfortunately I don't speak Italian and not sure if he's still doing it either.

[vvv_stg]

So somewhat on topic, instead of the Japanese list of shmups difficulty, I think we should make the list of WR difficulties and WR information, because those scores and runs, many of which are for forgotten games with very little surviving information, are a lot more interesting imo. Also it might be useful for anyone who's looking for a random game to learn or to hunt the WR of.

You could rank the WRs based on overall difficulty/execution, the RNG factor (this will multiply the number of runs you have to do ON TOP OF even just learning the game fully), and the "mystery" factor for games where we have no idea how the score was even achieved.

Gemant was making his ARCA list but unfortunately I don't speak Italian and not sure if he's still doing it either.

That would be one of the good reasons why we could use a shmups wiki. A scoring history section like this would be helpful in some sense to understand the difficulty of scoring. Unfortunately, I have no idea where to find post-1999 scores besides the latest ones (maybe the JHA website would have a database when it's finally real?).

[Gemant]

So somewhat on topic, instead of the Japanese list of shmups difficulty, I think we should make the list of WR difficulties and WR information, because those scores and runs, many of which are for forgotten games with very little surviving information, are a lot more interesting imo. Also it might be useful for anyone who's looking for a random game to learn or to hunt the WR of.

You could rank the WRs based on overall difficulty/execution, the RNG factor (this will multiply the number of runs you have to do ON TOP OF even just learning the game fully), and the "mystery" factor for games where we have no idea how the score was even achieved.

Gemant was making his ARCA list but unfortunately I don't speak Italian and not sure if he's still doing it either.

Unfortunately, I have no idea where to find post-1999 scores besides the latest ones (maybe the JHA website would have a database when it's finally real?).

In the future JHA you can watch the top japan only (no history). But I hope at least in a comment from the player for the current top score (number of lives remaining, bombs reamining etc.), but I doubt. Probably will only wrote the score.

In my ARCA I can speak with details about scores becasue I speak directly with players...

[vvv_stg]

So somewhat on topic, instead of the Japanese list of shmups difficulty, I think we should make the list of WR difficulties and WR information, because those scores and runs, many of which are for forgotten games with very little surviving information, are a lot more interesting imo. Also it might be useful for anyone who's looking for a random game to learn or to hunt the WR of.

You could rank the WRs based on overall difficulty/execution, the RNG factor (this will multiply the number of runs you have to do ON TOP OF even just learning the game fully), and the "mystery" factor for games where we have no idea how the score was even achieved.

Gemant was making his ARCA list but unfortunately I don't speak Italian and not sure if he's still doing it either.

Unfortunately, I have no idea where to find post-1999 scores besides the latest ones (maybe the JHA website would have a database when it's finally real?).

In the future JHA you can watch the top japan only (no history). But I hope at least in a comment from the player for the current top score (number of lives remaining, bombs reamining etc.), but I doubt. Probably will only wrote the score.

In my ARCA I can speak with details about scores becasue I speak directly with players...

Wow, I did not know about ARCA. It's extremely informative! Thank you for collecting and sharing this.

[ProjectAKo]

Yeah I had some fun reading about street fighter 2 scoring I had to put it in google translate for Italian

Fun fact, they figured out how to get 77 double KOs or something on those AI opponents...