XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Everblue]

I got a request from friends to make a Genesis 'universal' profile that shows a small amount of overscan in order to display both 320 and 256 resolution modes without cutting active graphics off on the sides. I went ahead and designed 4x and 5x versions that do exactly that, and they are set to a 4:3 aspect ratio using Artemio's linearity test pattern.

Also to avoid the hassle of waiting for my web site provider to overwrite links, I switched to a date system for the download package:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... 8-2016.zip


The new profiles are "GEN4XUNI" and "GEN5XUNI" respectively. The advantage of these profiles is that they can handle games that randomly mode-switch from either 320 or 256 mode. The downside is the slightly visible overscan on the sides of the active graphics.

Awesome, thanks! Are these for 1080p or 720p? Or it doesn't matter?

[Everblue]

@xyga

Just as I was going to click the Buy Now button on the HP 27xw it dawned on me to check if the monitor has speakers... and alas it doesn't - argh, back to the drawing board.

It seems the next best choice is the VA Benq.

[Xyga]

@xyga

Just as I was going to click the Buy Now button on the HP 27xw it dawned on me to check if the monitor has speakers... and alas it doesn't - argh, back to the drawing board.

It seems the next best choice is the VA Benq.

Haha, you never know what will stop people. ^^
Personally I'd always privilege raw performance and picture quality over everything else, the HP XW top all other Full-HD monitors. But heh.
(yes along with the bracket and stand I would also buy detachable USB-powered speakers that i would stick to the back of it but that's inflating the invoice again)

Other IPS choices with speakers include the overpriced LG 27MB67PY-B, the more appealing 27MP77HM, and reflective Dell S2715H we've already mentioned.
The Dell is the best of the three technically speaking, a generic rotation-capable stand will be optional bar the first LG.

Now going for a VA is the other possibility of course, but you know they're different right ? Much better with black/dark contents, but less responsive sometimes, which can be annoying with some fast 3D games like FPS/RTS for instance, if that's your thing.

Anyway good luck with your monitor hunt.

[Everblue]

@xyga

Just as I was going to click the Buy Now button on the HP 27xw it dawned on me to check if the monitor has speakers... and alas it doesn't - argh, back to the drawing board.

It seems the next best choice is the VA Benq.

Haha, you never know what will stop people. ^^
Personally I'd always privilege raw performance and picture quality over everything else, the HP XW top all other Full-HD monitors. But heh.
(yes along with the bracket and stand I would also buy detachable USB-powered speakers that i would stick to the back of it but that's inflating the invoice again)

Other IPS choices with speakers include the overpriced LG 27MB67PY-B, the more appealing 27MP77HM, and reflective Dell S2715H we've already mentioned.
The Dell is the best of the three technically speaking, a generic rotation-capable stand will be optional bar the first LG.

Now going for a VA is the other possibility of course, but you know they're different right ? Much better with black/dark contents, but less responsive sometimes, which can be annoying with some fast 3D games like FPS/RTS for instance, if that's your thing.

Anyway good luck with your monitor hunt.

Stupid question... how do you get audio from the Framemeister if the monitor doesn't have any speakers? I would still go for the HP 27xw if there was a simple way

As for games, I'm only interested in Framemeister + Retro

[CkRtech]

Stupid question... how do you get audio from the Framemeister if the monitor doesn't have any speakers? I would still go for the HP 27xw if there was a simple way

1: You could route the audio separately prior to the xrgb either directly from the console if available or by using an RCA audio breakout from the SCART connection prior to it hitting the 8 pin mini din adapter and plug at the xrgb (the usual SCART vs JP21 caveats apply. Make sure it fits the proper connection you are using)
2: You could use an HDMI device to breakout the audio (and use digital coax/optical or even analog) after the xrgb output and prior to it hitting your monitor
3: You could use any sort of audio output from your monitor and run the appropriate cable to your audio solution after your monitor has received the HDMI input.

[Xyga]

Regarding the IPS vs VA, if only doing retro/scaler stuff a VA will do too, but then it's a total matter of personal preference, some still prefer IPS for being slightly more responsive overall and showing more 'natural' colors. Some can't go back after a taste of the VA superior blacks and contrast. Your choice. ^^

Hey you're narrowing it down to a very limited number of monitors, things are going well ^^
In the end it's the BL2700HT (or the Iiyama if available) and 27MB67PY, that is if you want do-it-all plug-and-play models.
The only thing you won't like is that none of the two have reviews, and their coatings are grainy matte (inferior picture quality when compared to glossy)
You can bet they perform like the usual BenQ and LG though, so I wouldn't worry about the response and lag.
Me ? I would still go for the S2715H + a generic optional rotating stand (glossy always wins despite the reflection annoyance, and I always play in a rather dark room even daytime anyway)

Note one thing about monitors that come with included rotating stand: those are never set to rotate the right way, but normally since they're standard VESA you can mount the stand so the starting position is vertical, so it shouldn't be a problem.
The only thing that could prevent that is if the included stand has some specific design feature that doesn't allow for it without modification, but I haven't heard of that happening yet (doesn't mean it can't)

[Everblue]

Ordered the HP 27XW.

Audio problem solved by ordering a Framemeister CSYNC Scart cable with breakout audio cables =)

[Xyga]

No idea if it will be smooth or not, some monitors handle 50Hz well, others don't...
I know only prad.de testing 50Hz in their reviews.
Here it seems funny that 50Hz modes would only be supported via the input that doubles as an MHL one, the manual isn't formulating things very clearly, but there is no way to be sure exactly how it will fare without 'field' testing.
The limitations put on monitor refreshes today are mainly due to lazy design from manufacturers who like 99% of the population think a monitor if for using with a PC period.
By forcing unlisted modes we realize they're capable of many more modes, unfortunately there is no way to benefit from that using external devices such as scalers, consoles and AV equipment.

Caring about all specs and details while looking for a monitor is tough!
Especially when some of the most basic things are never really thoroughly tested even by the most respected websites, nor always specified very clearly in the official documentation.
50Hz modes being one of the last things people will care about, making sure before the purchase is mostly mission: impossible.
Still, I remembered K-2 owns that Dell, you could drop him a PM to ask him to test some 50Hz modes on all inputs, but he hasn't visited in ages apparently.
There's still asking PCM2's and NCX's opinion on the matter as well, if you haven't yet it can't hurt, they may have not tested this specifically, but they have a long experience with lcdisplays of many brands and answering all kinds of technical questions.

Ordered the HP 27XW.

Audio problem solved by ordering a Framemeister CSYNC Scart cable with breakout audio cables =)

EDIT: oh ok, please make sure to post your feedback.

[Everblue]

Ordered the HP 27XW.

Audio problem solved by ordering a Framemeister CSYNC Scart cable with breakout audio cables =)
EDIT: oh ok, please make sure to post your feedback.

I will - I decided to go ahead after checking the manual and it specifically says that it supports 50hz to 60hz. Guess we have to wait to be 100% sure, but there is a good chance HP aren't lying.



Last but not least, thanks a bunch for your help and infinite patience answering my very pedantic questions!

[Xyga]

You're welcome, being picky and asking the more questions is the right way to do this.
LCD monitors are mostly crap compared to genuine CRTs. Manufacturers sell lazy designs with poor factory quality control, so it's really difficult to get the right product, and often requires a few tries.

[tacoguy64]

I am a bit late to the game and it's been months since i last messed with the frameister but last night I finally got around to doing the firmware update to v2.02
Been using the FBX profiles and so far i'm really liking the result. My only complain now is that I haven't been able to adjust the scan line settings to my liking. Didn't have this issue before. Either way good job on those profiles, the ones i used were spot on for my panny plasma.

[austin532]

What problems are you having with scanlines? If you have a 1080p TV set to 1:1 pixel mode, have the Mini set to either DVI 1920 x 1080 or 1080p mode, and the have the right profile loaded then it should look ok.

People will argue that you can't get good looking scanlines in 1080p but I disagree. Here are some settings I came up with:


For thicker looking scanlines use these:

40 INT LINE 66 INT SMOOTH
50 INT LINE 71 INT SMOOTH
60 INT LINE 76 INT SMOOTH
70 INT LINE 81 INT SMOOTH

For more even looking scanlines use these:

40 INT LINE 71 INT SMOOTH
50 INT LINE 76 INT SMOOTH
60 INT LINE 81 INT SMOOTH
70 INT LINE 86 INT SMOOTH

For more authentic looking CRT TV scanlines use these:

40 INT LINE 81 INT SMOOTH
50 INT LINE 86 INT SMOOTH
60 INT LINE 91 INT SMOOTH
70 INT LINE 96 INT SMOOTH


If anyone has any feedback, I would like to hear it.

[Shuco13]

Edit: I just realized that scanlines are handled differently on DVI than on HDMI. There's never a third line being introduced but it's only possible to change density and not thickness which isn't good for 5x, 6x and fullscreen profiles.
Please take under consideration that the following post was tested on HDMI out:

@austin532

Amazing, thank you so much for your effort! You did change those settings again didn't you? I think the problem people are having is that it's still not possible to get correct scanlines with any other mode/profile than 4x on 1080p or (no) zoom on 720p.
Anyway I'd like to give you some feedback:

For 4x profiles: They all work great and I think it's a matter of taste which one works best.
For 5x profiles: I was actually surprised to find the last profile (70 INT LINE 96 INT SMOOTH) looking pretty good and being acceptable. It's not pixel perfect but you can only see the difference if you're standing directly in front of the display. The rest of the profiles are unfortunately bugged by a third line introduced between the correct lines.
For 6x profiles: Everything below 100-110 INT SMOOTH introduces a third decentral line which looks just terrible. The problem with 100-110 INT SMOOTH is that scanlines are just to thin to look acceptable.
Personal preference: For now I'm going to stick to 70 INT LINE 96 INT SMOOTH because it's usable for 4x and 5x profiles.

Ohter thoughts: Firstly I don't understand why scanlines aren't saved under profiles. Secondly I don't know why scanlines are still handled incorrectly by the framemeister and why it introduces a third line. It's clearly a bug and it's definitely fixable since it's already possible to display them correctly. You can test this as a temporary workarround: Activate scanlines on a profile that uses zoom and displays scanlines correctly. Then, without deactivating scanlines, set the zoom level to your taste and voila, you're having correct scanlines. Unfortunately you'll loose them again as soon as the framemeister blanks out or you de-/reactivate them.

[FBX]

Just to point out a couple things:

1. If your 6x profiles are not close enough to integer-perfect, you get forced into the "DEC" scanline options, which I believe is short for "Decimal". Basically if you're getting the DEC option, then your profile isn't accurate to an integer scale.

2. Even if you are getting "INT" options, it doesn't automatically mean your profile is integer-perfect. The Framemeister allows for a little leeway either above or below the target integer. However, you can usually tell it's not perfect when you turn scanlines on and see the random out of place scanline.

[rayik]

What problems are you having with scanlines? If you have a 1080p TV set to 1:1 pixel mode, have the Mini set to either DVI 1920 x 1080 or 1080p mode, and the have the right profile loaded then it should look ok.

People will argue that you can't get good looking scanlines in 1080p but I disagree. Here are some settings I came up with:


For thicker looking scanlines use these:

40 INT LINE 66 INT SMOOTH
50 INT LINE 71 INT SMOOTH
60 INT LINE 76 INT SMOOTH
70 INT LINE 81 INT SMOOTH

For more even looking scanlines use these:

40 INT LINE 71 INT SMOOTH
50 INT LINE 76 INT SMOOTH
60 INT LINE 81 INT SMOOTH
70 INT LINE 86 INT SMOOTH

For more authentic looking CRT TV scanlines use these:

40 INT LINE 81 INT SMOOTH
50 INT LINE 86 INT SMOOTH
60 INT LINE 91 INT SMOOTH
70 INT LINE 96 INT SMOOTH


If anyone has any feedback, I would like to hear it.

These are great. I've been trying them out with different profiles.

Thank you for taking the time to play with these and then post them.

[tacoguy64]

Another noob question here but I cant change the INT Line and INT SMOOTH on the mini. Not sure if I gotta change something else in order to have access to those settings. Unless you guys were talking about the DEC LINE and DEC LINE SMOOTH?

[Fudoh]

These are two different rendering engines for the scanlines. Only one is accessable at a time. INT is used when you're using 720p output or 1080p with integer scaling presets. DEC is used for other configs (like 240p input on 1080p output without integer scaling).

[Shuco13]

1. If your 6x profiles are not close enough to integer-perfect, you get forced into the "DEC" scanline options, which I believe is short for "Decimal". Basically if you're getting the DEC option, then your profile isn't accurate to an integer scale.

Nope, I'm not getting the DEC option on my profiles. Even if I got them I've set them to 127 each to avoid seeing them if I switch zoom off.

2. Even if you are getting "INT" options, it doesn't automatically mean your profile is integer-perfect. The Framemeister allows for a little leeway either above or below the target integer. However, you can usually tell it's not perfect when you turn scanlines on and see the random out of place scanline.

Oh, this is exceptionally interesting, I wasn't aware of that, unless you mean single, out of place scanlines resulting from a wrong vertical height. What I got in contrary is an uneven line between every even line. Nevertheless 2 questions arise from this circumstance:
1. Why isn't there any additional line on DVI using the exact same profile?
2. Any hint on how to remove the additional odd (?) lines?

[austin532]

These scanline settings only work with 1080p mode on 4x 240p profiles. They don't seem to work with DVI mode. As for getting nice scanlines on 5x, I don't think that is possible. If you lower the Overscan to 80 on a 5x they look great and keep the overscan look but I'm pretty sure you are not getting a pixel perfect image. I've known about the Zoom level/scanline bug for quite some time now. It's a neat trick but as you said it's only temperately.

I've also been experimenting on replicating a 480i CRT flicker effect for Component sources. It's mainly for myself but I may post it if people are curious.

[FBX]

These are two different rendering engines for the scanlines. Only one is accessable at a time. INT is used when you're using 720p output or 1080p with integer scaling presets. DEC is used for other configs (like 240p input on 1080p output without integer scaling).

Actually I had been experimenting with 1080p scanlines and figured out the logic (which I posted in this thread before):

"INT" options become available when your zoom settings are very close or perfectly match an integer of the source image, hence the term "INT".

"DEC" becomes the available option when your zoom settings are out of range of being an integer of the source image. In this case, I believe "DEC" stands for decimal, meaning it is a fraction-based scale of the source image.

Edit: LOL sorry. You said the same thing in different terms.

[Shuco13]

I know in the past Fudoh reported several times that Micomsoft were aware of all the issues and are trying to fix as many as possible. Now taking a look at the most recent firmware's changelog, translated by Google

It has extended the functionality of the SCANLINE. You can specify the brightness of the adjacent line, the "INT_SMOOTH" "DEC_SMOOTH". More natural scan line representation became possible.
■ Added "synchronization TIME" in a synchronized set. When the synchronization signal is interrupted, you can specify the time to re-find the input signal. But the resolution is as it is, in a game machine that breaks the synchronization signal at the scene switching often the moment, black-out by re-recognition of the signal is reduced.

I wonder if they are even AWARE that those issues have NOT been fixed as of now. By reading that changelog one might think they believe they've solved all the issues. Should we contact them again?

[Fudoh]

Should we contact them again?

in the works - don't worry.

[austin532]

I am sure they are aware of all the problems the Mini has but I don't think they will be able to fix all of them.

[TheShadowRunner]

Micomsoft announced on Twitter the XSELECT21, a mix between the SELECTY21 and the XSYNC-1:



They say that while it's april fool's day, 'the info is quite serious", so take it with a grain of salt ^^;

[Everblue]

Mr postman delivered my HP 27xw today. It is now connected to the Framemeister and setup. Unfortunately there isn't much I can do yet as am still waiting for my Scart cable with audio breakout from Retro Gaming Cables. But I did a mini test, switched the video out of the Framemeister to 1080p50 and got a picture without issues (and no issues with 1080p60 either). Basically this means that the monitor will be able to handle PAL with no issues ^-^

Now, back to waiting for Mr postman again to deliver my cable.

[Xyga]

Mr postman delivered my HP 27xw today

Pics of it running the Mini in 720p and 1080p modes please ? (w/scanlines too)
If you have the camera and time of course, don't trouble yourself otherwise.
The results should be a clearer and snappier image than most average 1080p LCD monitors and TVs around can offer.

Did you preorder the OSSC by the way ?

[Bobster]

Mr postman delivered my HP 27xw today

Pics of it running the Mini in 720p and 1080p modes please ? (w/scanlines too)
If you have the camera and time of course, don't trouble yourself otherwise.
The results should be a clearer and snappier image than most average 1080p LCD monitors and TVs around can offer.

Did you preorder the OSSC by the way ?

I just found out about the OSSC yesterday. It seems impressive but only puts out 720p right? If my understanding was correct it can do all PS2 modes over SCART?

[Guspaz]

Mr postman delivered my HP 27xw today

Pics of it running the Mini in 720p and 1080p modes please ? (w/scanlines too)
If you have the camera and time of course, don't trouble yourself otherwise.
The results should be a clearer and snappier image than most average 1080p LCD monitors and TVs around can offer.

Did you preorder the OSSC by the way ?

I just found out about the OSSC yesterday. It seems impressive but only puts out 720p right? If my understanding was correct it can do all PS2 modes over SCART?

It puts out 480p. The 720p mode it outputs isn't supported by most monitors, as I understand it, for being nonstandard in some way.

[Everblue]

Mr postman delivered my HP 27xw today

Pics of it running the Mini in 720p and 1080p modes please ? (w/scanlines too)
If you have the camera and time of course, don't trouble yourself otherwise.
The results should be a clearer and snappier image than most average 1080p LCD monitors and TVs around can offer.

Did you preorder the OSSC by the way ?

No OSSC for me. Yes I will take pictures but first I have to receive the framemeister scart cable.

[Everblue]

Quick question - now that FW2.02 is out, how good are scanlines on it @ 1080p, compared, let's say to 720p? At 1080p native resolution of course