Best Cave Shooter of All Time

[MSZ]

Ketsui

[Kollision]

mushi

/cls thread

[pestro87]

Futari God Mode is as close to flawless as a STG can get, so it's Cave's best.

Agreed. Started playing it again and now I can't stop playing it lol. The amount of depth in God Mode is incredible.

[Skykid]

DOJ is the ugliest Cave by far, and the original non-arranged musics are totally forgettable if not irritating.

Everyone knows Deathsmiles is the ugliest Cave shmup, it's like fucking clip art. Namiki's DOJ OST is not only one of his personal high points but one of the more celebrated in shmupdom. I know music taste is subjective, but I have no idea why you would find it irritating.

This is all aesthetic though. The game is as perfect a harmony as IKD ever achieved; it's just for my money it doesn't look anywhere near as bad as the likes of DS or Futari and I don't understand this ongoing fallacy.

[chempop]

space ships are the most boring lifeless things ever.

LAME

[HIB]

In my opinion Futari 1.5's Maniac is the best STG of all time (1.5 Original close second and then, maybe, DOJ). So, yes, Futari is the best Cave game for me.

[Despatche]

grind stormer

[BrianC]

R-Type. The second level is a cave.

On a more serious note, Futari is my favorite out of the Cave shmups I have played.

[To Far Away Times]

Foo Tar Ee

[Shepardus]

Surely I'm not the only one who prefers Dodonpachi's gameplay over Daioujou's? I appreciate that Daioujou presents a deeper game with more opportunities for optimization, but as a scrub-tier player I always get the feeling when playing it that it really wasn't made for me(re mortals) and that it's actively rubbing that in my face. I constantly feel like it's been balanced for really good players at the expense of the new-player experience, and its complexity overwhelms me to the point where if I wanted to seriously score in it I wouldn't know where to start except by copying a replay, which I find to be no fun. Sure, it might be great once you've learned it, but the way it turns me off that's unlikely to ever happen. Dodonpachi to me feels far more comprehensible and gives me a more immediate sense of fun.

More specifics:
The hyper system pulls off the impossible and actually manages to make me feel weaker. Sure, I get a noticeable increase in firepower and my hit counter goes up a lot faster (though I lose my chain just as often), but with the increase in hyper rank I often end up regretting using a hyper because it just gets me killed, especially on bosses. It's a far cry from Crimzon Clover's break mode, which also increases rank during the break but gives you so much power that it doesn't feel like a trap to use it. Also, some parts like stage 5 feel a lot more enjoyable with higher rank and faster bullets, while at low rank enemies tend to shoot slower and denser clouds of bullets that make the game more prone to slowdown and more sluggish in its pacing, further emphasizing my sentiment that this game really doesn't want casual players like me to like it.

I can't stand the second half of stage 3 or most of stage 5 outside of the midbosses (which adapt Dodonpachi's bosses to Daioujou's style really well). The popcorn in those love to shoot these dense lines of bullets that I really dislike dodging/avoiding. I don't have a really satisfactory explanation for why I dislike them as much as I do, but I can't help but feel exasperated when I forget the location of an enemy spawn and they flood the screen with a wall of bullets that cuts me off with no room to even try to move through it, so I have to bomb/hyper or suffer a slowdown-filled death. Even when I do herd bullets and execute cutbacks properly it's a type of dodging I don't find as satisfying as the dodging in a number of other games. The silver lining is that it's easy to spot when I need to bomb so I tend not to lose as many bombs as I do in many other games.

Stage 4 is really cool, though, I'll give it that.

[ciox]

Surely I'm not the only one who prefers Dodonpachi's gameplay over Daioujou's? I appreciate that Daioujou presents a deeper game with more opportunities for optimization, but as a scrub-tier player I always get the feeling when playing it that it really wasn't made for me(re mortals) and that it's actively rubbing that in my face. I constantly feel like it's been balanced for really good players at the expense of the new-player experience, and its complexity overwhelms me to the point where if I wanted to seriously score in it I wouldn't know where to start except by copying a replay, which I find to be no fun. Sure, it might be great once you've learned it, but the way it turns me off that's unlikely to ever happen. Dodonpachi to me feels far more comprehensible and gives me a more immediate sense of fun.

Really feel the opposite, and it's all because of hypers, I have no idea what to do in DDP if I'm about to drop the chain because there is nothing to do, in DOJ you can activate a hyper to both save it and keep it going since there's a good few moments where you can just sit at the bottom middle of the screen firing hyper shot which gives enough chain meter to keep the chain going for a little while until you figure out what to do next to actually chain, of course this "technique" won't cut it for any of the difficult chain links in the game but that's a good thing.

Stage 4 is really cool, though, I'll give it that.

It's also quite inspired by Ikaruga.
Both the stage's environmental gimmicks and the boss are really reminiscent of Ikaruga stuff, really helps stage 4 feel fresh.

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l ... nemies.jpg

Looks good enough to me, I don't see why this is worse than say Garegga stage 6, it has roughly the same low key colors and posterized lighting, with some orange glow to make it less grey.

[Nameschonvergeben]

he was probably comparing it to visual masterpieces like Zing Zing Zip

[Skykid]

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l ... nemies.jpg

Looks good enough to me, I don't see why this is worse than say Garegga stage 6, it has roughly the same low key colors and posterized lighting, with some orange glow to make it less grey.

There's really nothing overtly bad about DOJ's visuals, which is why I don't understand the criticism. Stage 3 is the only one that lacks a concerted effort IMO, but otherwise the opening cityscape, cratered moon and tank trench, stage 4's steel-doored hive and Stage 5's stronghold assault are all fairly nice - although Stage 5 is so awash with bullets there's not much background to see.

Ultimately the aesthetic is far less important: DOJ is characterised in the way each stage, and each section of each stage, has a distinct personality threaded by Hypers and beautiful chains.

Surely I'm not the only one who prefers Dodonpachi's gameplay over Daioujou's? I appreciate that Daioujou presents a deeper game with more opportunities for optimization, but as a scrub-tier player I always get the feeling when playing it that it really wasn't made for me(re mortals) and that it's actively rubbing that in my face. I constantly feel like it's been balanced for really good players at the expense of the new-player experience, and its complexity overwhelms me to the point where if I wanted to seriously score in it I wouldn't know where to start except by copying a replay, which I find to be no fun. Sure, it might be great once you've learned it, but the way it turns me off that's unlikely to ever happen. Dodonpachi to me feels far more comprehensible and gives me a more immediate sense of fun.

The 'hump' in DOJ is less formidable than it seems. Initially it's an absolute buttfuck, but persevere just enough to hit the flow and it will seduce you. Chaining is great fun and helps your life stock and hyper situation, but it's not a pre-requisite to clearing the game. It is all about EXY however.

I think any DOJ discussion should have NTSC-J quotes as standard now:

The way you hold your fire at the start before activating your stocked hypers to kick things off.

The way you keep that bee on the factory roof on-screen for what seems like a lifetime before finally grabbing it at the last moment as you cross the screen to connect your chain.

That light touch to keep enough enemies alive so you can use the power-up carrier as the final stepping-stone to connect to the mid-boss.

Then finally, if you've been a good boy and the chain is healthy and ready to bear fruit, you grab those bees, wait for the fifth and final hyper to float down like a care-package from the lord, grab it and let it go. Now your hyper flows like a mighty river, washing away the enemy forces which are now coming in huge number, but it's no use because the music is kicking into high gear, your hyper is fully tumescent, the points just keep coming in, and you realize you have slipped the surly bonds of nerd and touched the face of Ikeda. As the hyper reaches its end, so does the stage, but you still have the presence of mind to grab those last two bees at the end like two quick pecks on the left and right cheek as you kiss the stage goodnight.

Cave made a lot of good games since, but they never again reached the heights of DOJ.

DOJ is the album where every song is a hit single.

[Shepardus]

I think DOJ's graphics lack the sharpness and contrast of details that help define Garegga and Dodonpachi, leaving it looking a bit muddy. It's to be expected with prerendered graphics, though, and it's hardly unique to DOJ.

Zing Zing Zip's got some neat sprites too; however, the sprites are the least of its problems.

I think any DOJ discussion should have NTSC-J quotes as standard now

I think any discussion can be improved with NTSC-J quotes.

[austere]

Then finally, if you've been a good boy and the chain is healthy and ready to bear fruit, you grab those bees, wait for the fifth and final hyper to float down like a care-package from the lord, grab it and let it go. Now your hyper flows like a mighty river, washing away the enemy forces which are now coming in huge number, but it's no use because the music is kicking into high gear, your hyper is fully tumescent, the points just keep coming in, and you realize you have slipped the surly bonds of nerd and touched the face of Ikeda. As the hyper reaches its end, so does the stage, but you still have the presence of mind to grab those last two bees at the end like two quick pecks on the left and right cheek as you kiss the stage goodnight.

Amen. He captured stage 2 perfectly, which in a sense is a perfection of DDP's stage 2. DOJ-BL is a game I will be playing with for a long time to come.

Are the graphics flawed? It was their first PGM game and they used a very subdued palette, pre-rendered sprites but honestly? It had a ghostly look and it's quite unique in that manner. Stage 2, 3 and 5 are extremely memorable. Stage 1 and 4 are the low points but have very memorable bosses and intermission sections. The music? Come on, I guess people's taste varies but to me the music was mostly close to perfect. It matched the theme of each stage perfectly. I had to listen to every track a zillion times while I was working on the sound emulation code for it so I have it memorised despite me not touching a STG for years. Again, stage 2, 3 and 5's music was perfect, stage 1 and 4 not as good, though they weren't even bad.

I can't really answer the original post as I haven't had a chance to play SDOJ yet (it's been sitting on my bench for years waiting for me), but from all the other Cave games I've played (and I've played them all), my provisional answer would have to be DOJ, followed by DoDonPachi as a close second. I'm really not sure there's enough culture left around the world to make a STG that can exceed these two games today, let alone match them. Had they used Ketsui style graphics and spruced up level 1 and 4? I doubt it could ever be beaten.

Spoiler

The imperfection are at least a small shred of hope that we can look forward to something even better after enough events around the world inspire people out of the demoralised state that generates today's apathy and nihilism.

So beautiful

It looks better when you wash it down scanlines and use the right aspect ratio though. PGM is weird man. I do like how you can easily add 1/3 scanlines while keeping the image pixel perfect though.

[NTSC-J]

Thanks for all the love, guys. I'm gonna bookmark this for days when I'm feeling down.

I understand people that don't like DOJ's graphics, but I think there's a lot of good there, too. The bosses look rad and there are lots of small details throughout. Most of all, the graphics set the tone of the game so well. It's cold, it's dark, and it's mean. There isn't a soul to be found outside of your android girl chattering at the very start and then the endings should you ever see them. Otherwise, it's tanks, machines, factories, and frozen landscapes. The closest signs of life are those giant pulsing heart-things in stage 5, but they're all machine. A lot of shooters also have mostly machines and junk, but often times they have brighter color palettes or upbeat music that gives them some life. DOJ, on the other hand, is like a long, grueling winter and there's never going to be a spring, which is perfect for the unforgiving gameplay.

One minor thing I want to mention because it's one of my favorite touches in DOJ: If you trigger a hyper while another is floating around the screen, it turns into a star you can pick up. Now they could have just made the star worth zero points in which case you wouldn't notice it, or they could have made it worth a million in which case a novice player would feel like it's a decent consolation prize for a bungled chain. But no, it's worth 10,000 points which is just enough to say, "Nice going, genius. Here's a nickel." Just brilliant.

[CStarFlare]

Interesting point about the hyper star. I wonder if scoring routes would change if hyper items turned into a bee.

[chempop]

Surely I'm not the only one who prefers Dodonpachi's gameplay over Daioujou's? I appreciate that Daioujou presents a deeper game with more opportunities for optimization, but as a scrub-tier player I always get the feeling when playing it that it really wasn't made for me(re mortals) and that it's actively rubbing that in my face. I constantly feel like it's been balanced for really good players at the expense of the new-player experience, and its complexity overwhelms me to the point where if I wanted to seriously score in it I wouldn't know where to start except by copying a replay, which I find to be no fun. Sure, it might be great once you've learned it, but the way it turns me off that's unlikely to ever happen. Dodonpachi to me feels far more comprehensible and gives me a more immediate sense of fun.

More specifics:
The hyper system pulls off the impossible and actually manages to make me feel weaker. Sure, I get a noticeable increase in firepower and my hit counter goes up a lot faster (though I lose my chain just as often), but with the increase in hyper rank I often end up regretting using a hyper because it just gets me killed, especially on bosses. It's a far cry from Crimzon Clover's break mode, which also increases rank during the break but gives you so much power that it doesn't feel like a trap to use it. Also, some parts like stage 5 feel a lot more enjoyable with higher rank and faster bullets, while at low rank enemies tend to shoot slower and denser clouds of bullets that make the game more prone to slowdown and more sluggish in its pacing, further emphasizing my sentiment that this game really doesn't want casual players like me to like it.

I can't stand the second half of stage 3 or most of stage 5 outside of the midbosses (which adapt Dodonpachi's bosses to Daioujou's style really well). The popcorn in those love to shoot these dense lines of bullets that I really dislike dodging/avoiding. I don't have a really satisfactory explanation for why I dislike them as much as I do, but I can't help but feel exasperated when I forget the location of an enemy spawn and they flood the screen with a wall of bullets that cuts me off with no room to even try to move through it, so I have to bomb/hyper or suffer a slowdown-filled death. Even when I do herd bullets and execute cutbacks properly it's a type of dodging I don't find as satisfying as the dodging in a number of other games. The silver lining is that it's easy to spot when I need to bomb so I tend not to lose as many bombs as I do in many other games.

Stage 4 is really cool, though, I'll give it that.

I mostly feel the same way. I admit I've never learned to score in any pachi games. I don't follow replays and it just feels like an exercise in patience that I'm just not interested in. But that's part of why DDP games are some of the best, because you don't have to score to still enjoy them. I know it sounds lame, but it's true, for me anyway, and it's how cave intended according to blackoaks latest shmuplation. It was still exceptionally fun to scrub through the first loop a small handful of times.

My first comment about DOJ being one of cave's most ugly games was sorta a joke. It's not supposed to be a bright colorful experience, I get it. And I do like it's menacing appearance, but it doesn't look as good as DDP, especially the backgrounds and bosses. In stage 5 when the DDP midbosses arrive it's such a tease, imagine if the whole game looked like them, and yes, they could have still used grey, browns, beige, and ochre colors. If they remade DOJ with all pixel art and detailed backgrounds I'd be okay with it.

[Bloodreign]

Dangun Feveron's oddness appeals to me, though DDP DOJ is my favorite from them. Ketsui gets a nod too, quite an enjoyable game.

[Strikers1945guy]

In terms of sheer badass game with amazingly difficult scoring potential that plays different every run - Ibara

In terms of traditional non Yagawa cave games - DOJ

[Shalashaska]

My vote is for DOJ.

[Imhotep]

Espgaluda for IKD and Muchi Muchi Pork for YGW, though Pink Sweets and DFK BL intrigue me the most.

[rtw]

Ketsui

[Battlesmurf]

dangun

Came here to say exactly this. Squire elaborated a bit. I really love the game, it could only be better if it could control neon lights and run with a subwoofer well (think DDR). Other than that, the game is one of my top 10. I stumbled across it more than a decade ago by accident, can't think of a shooter that left a bigger impression than that one (at least in the Cave camp).