Most ridiculous anti-shmup hogwash?

[Dylan1CC]

I bet even you under that regime would welcome Delta like a breath of fresh air...

Tomb Raider > Delta. Einhander was the shooter of the day and TF5 was my nostalgia novelty. It was cute how they gave most shooters 7-8 ratings though.

Pretty sad how Delta looks much better than any given Tomb Raider game starring Ms. Croft and has aged much nicer for a poly game than Ms. Croft. I also loved the tedious control. Tomb Raider = some of the worst control mechanics of the 32 bit gen.

Delta is like R-TYPE meets TF. Delta is Irem and TF evolved.

[Turrican]

Hey, *I* can stand Tomb Raider sequels.

I own every Tomb Raider game in one format or another. Also my mother is a BIG Lara Croft fan.

Hey, that's sweet! The original was such a total masterwork. I hope the upcoming Legend will please all three of us (me, you and your mom!).

P.S. You could share your opinion on the sequels then. I actually was thinking to have a go at them, so what's your favorite besides TR1?

(to the moderators - don't complain, this thread has already gone waay off topic)

[99pence]

People can say whatever they want about videogames...


...as long as they don't slate any games I like.



That's quite an expensive way to cover a roof.

[Rob]

I also loved the tedious control.

Speaking of tedious: R-Type.

Delta is like R-TYPE meets TF. Delta is Irem and TF evolved.

Wow, no. I'm not sure what you think Delta has anything to do with Thunder Force (TF?).

Now what's this about Tomb Raider Legend?

[Herr Schatten]

Pretty sad how Delta looks much better than any given Tomb Raider game starring Ms. Croft and has aged much nicer for a poly game than Ms. Croft.

I disagree here. Although it's a fine game, Delta's graphics haven't aged well at all. It plays well, but pretty much looks like ass. A typical case of the early "run before you even learned to walk" type of polygon graphics we have seen much too often, imo.

The first Tomb Raider, however, is so jaggy and low-poly it almost seems to have some kind of abstract charm to it. It's the sequels that have aged badly.

[Buttman]

When you play Esp Rade or Guwange, it's funny to hear "aren't you fed up with those aircraft games (sic)".

[system11]

I disagree here. Although it's a fine game, Delta's graphics haven't aged well at all. It plays well, but pretty much looks like ass. A typical case of the early "run before you even learned to walk" type of polygon graphics we have seen much too often, imo.

I actually think it still looks pretty good - but it might be because I play it on a PS2, and with some games (Delta included), that smoothing/whatever option actually does a lot of good.

[Turrican]

I actually think it still looks pretty good - but it might be because I play it on a PS2, and with some games (Delta included), that smoothing/whatever option actually does a lot of good.

I still play it on PSone and it looks absolutely gorgeous. Definitely not the kind of polygon graphics that has aged badly.
Same with Tomb Raider, actually. I popped the first just a couple of days ago (it was my first purchase with the playstation system - damn has it really been ten years ago?) and I was shocked by how much it stood the test of time. Only the lack of analog control was there to remind me how ancient it was.

(Yeah, I'm not crazy and for the record I just completed God of War on PS2 - and yet TR still looks great).

You want a PSone game that has aged awfully? Let's talk of FF VII...

[Marc]

You're kidding right? Mainstream games are beyond rediculously easy. Most of them are practically pedestrian. Sometimes I feel like the majority of modern console games are more like an interactive movie than an actual challenge.

Depends how you play them. Case in point, I'm currently playing Resi 4. Now if I used every save point, went back to a save point after every boss, continued when I did die... yeah, I guess I'd be finding it 'easy'. In the same way you'd find any shooter 'easy' if you used the continue option every time it was offered to you.

As it is, I'm having fun skipping the odd save point, pushing my luck here and there, not taking the easy way out if I'm low on ammo etc... I'm playing it the same way I would an older game (and the same way I did the POP games - saving once at the end of every session, not at every point) and finding it pretty tough. Hell, I've just had to repeat one section in the castle six or seven times (the huge room where you have to lower the stairs if anyone cares). Maybe if you're finding modern games too easy, it's your fault for using every save point/continue option available to you.

'But they're there to be used, that's the way the designers have designed them!' you cry. Well why doesn't that apply for a shmup?

[benstylus]

I don't know about Resident Evil 4, but I know the previous entries in the series ranked you based on time, the number of saves used, etc.

So getting an S rank on RE would be somewhat equivalent to 1ccing a shooter. When you continue in a shooter, your score is usually reset to zero. So if you manage to 1cc it, chances are your score will be much higher than if you credit feed your way through it.

However, apart from the survival horror games, very few mainstream games have any sort of ranking system other than perhaps a difficulty setting.

I think it's good when developers put those sorts of things in, as it adds replay value to those people who believe that gaming is not just about getting to the end of the game, but truly mastering the game.

[Kiken]

However, apart from the survival horror games, very few mainstream games have any sort of ranking system other than perhaps a difficulty setting.

I think it's good when developers put those sorts of things in, as it adds replay value to those people who believe that gaming is not just about getting to the end of the game, but truly mastering the game.

Well, that's where the speed-running crowd come in. They constantly push themselves to complete games in as little time as possible. Saves become very strategic in these situations.

[SAM]

I should clarify:

By "pedestrian" I mean games that can be completed on their first attempt with little effort. Games that are merely pretty graphics with a few button presses and lo and behold you are looking at the "Congradulations, you've won" screen. These to me are more in the genre of "interative movie", and less "game".

Since the era of the Playstation, I've lost count of the volume of games that I've clocked on my first attempt.

Don't you think that's a poor criteria? Games restrictions have been eased. How many of those games did you not die? How many of those games did you not have to continue? Comparing a one credit clear in a shooter to modern mainstream gaming is like comparing apples to heroin, I just don't see the connection. I mean, what mainstream game (i.e. platformer, 3d action game, etc) do you not clear on your first attempt? You never actually start the game over because of saving and liberal lives. Even if a game can be beaten in say 5-10 hours (a few days of playtime)if you applied arcade criteria of single credit limited lives the games would be ridiculously frustrating. If you got 8 hours in to a game, and you ran out of continues and had to start the game all over again, how many people would? The games would be impossible due to their length. How many people would be willing to sit and play a game for 10 hours straight just to complete it?

Well, I am not to argue with you about the willingness to start over in a mainstream game which takes 40+ hours to finish.

If you are to compare the difficulty of beating a mainstream game to a shmup with unlimited continues, I think your conclusion is wrong i.e. invalid. Since in all mainstream games nowadays you have to restart at last save file/save point, these save location/save point are essiential a check points in shmups. You shouldn't use a instant respawn shmup for comparation. You should use one with check points.

Well, many of us here could 1LC shmups like Gradius, Salamander, Kyukyoku Tiger. But how many of us could still 1cc the game after dying in later stages? I think I had made my point clear.

[captain ahar]

while this isn't really an anti-shmup thing...

i was at circuit city looking into getting a hi-def set, and in talking to a clerk, tate was mentioned (in context, he had asked about games i play). it was fun trying to explain to him why i would rotate my television... on purpose. he just couldn't grasp what i was saying...

[Blade]

I'm still somewhat disappointed with the idea that I can't directly hook up my PC Monitor to my Gamecube while the monitor's display mode is in Tate. And I'm using Benq. So far all I've been able to do is do a USB 2.0 thing which actually has less resolution than a normal TV and it only works when my display mode is Hori.

So no full-screen Ikaruga as of yet.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

while this isn't really an anti-shmup thing...

i was at circuit city looking into getting a hi-def set, and in talking to a clerk, tate was mentioned (in context, he had asked about games i play). it was fun trying to explain to him why i would rotate my television... on purpose. he just couldn't grasp what i was saying...

Yea, its always cool when other people give you that, "What The Fuck Is This Guy Talking About" expression.

[99pence]

I'm quite reserved about talking about video games in real life.

If I was in the middle of buying a TV, talking to a shop assistant I wouldn't say, 'guess what mate. You see this TV I'm buying, well when I play video games I'm going to turn it on it's side. How do you like them apples.' They're going to think you're nuts. I'd be embarassed and just wouldn't bother saying it.


Try telling someone in the UK that Jpn and USA games run 17.5% faster. That's always an interesting one. If you think turning a TV on it's side turns heads, telling someone foreign games are faster will make eyebrows rise so fast they create sonic booms.

[Dylan1CC]

I also loved the tedious control.

Speaking of tedious: R-Type.

Delta is like R-TYPE meets TF. Delta is Irem and TF evolved.

Wow, no. I'm not sure what you think Delta has anything to do with Thunder Force (TF?).

Now what's this about Tomb Raider Legend?

Tedious = poorly executed repetition. R-TYPE's "safety zone" gameplay isn't for everone but I do not find it tedious. It set a standard of well executed gameplay whether you like it or not, just as reflect based shooting is a set standard but isn't everyone's cup of tea either.

I compared it to TF because while pattern based, Delta was more forgiving in some ways (letting your ship run into walls), was much faster paced, and more emphasis on action and destroying things in the environment instead of constantly worrying about dying.

Therefore, faster paced "more forgiving" R-TYPE with more action = I think it feels like R-TYPE with a small dash of the gameplay more easy hori shooters like TF offer. Others have said this too in the past.

[captain ahar]

Yea, its always cool when other people give you that, "What The Fuck Is This Guy Talking About" expression.

the whole conversation makes me think of spinal tap.

"... but these speakers go to eleven ..."

[Acid King]

Well, I am not to argue with you about the willingness to start over in a mainstream game which takes 40+ hours to finish.

If you are to compare the difficulty of beating a mainstream game to a shmup with unlimited continues, I think your conclusion is wrong i.e. invalid. Since in all mainstream games nowadays you have to restart at last save file/save point, these save location/save point are essiential a check points in shmups. You shouldn't use a instant respawn shmup for comparation. You should use one with check points.

Well, many of us here could 1LC shmups like Gradius, Salamander, Kyukyoku Tiger. But how many of us could still 1cc the game after dying in later stages? I think I had made my point clear.

You can't compare a one credit clear of any shooter, check points or not, to completing a mainstream game. Most mainstream games restart you to a save point/checkpoint, but there is no limit on the number of deaths you can have. I can only think of a few games where they limit your number of lives or continues (maximo immediately comes to mind). On top of that, unlike Gradius or Salamander, when you are restarted to a save point, you aren't penalized. In Max Payne, if you save before the last boss fight, die and reload the game, you don't start with pistols and nothing else, you start with everything you had when you saved. They don't take away the weapons and ammo you've been carrying on you since the first stage when you die on the 8th. The whole criticism is flawed. The gameplay analogy is not comparable at all.

"... but these speakers go to eleven ..."

It's like 10, but louder.

[theevilfunkster]

Just read this gem at gamefaqs,

Wow... giga wing...

I cant believe the game is this bad! the colours are all runny, its over in like twenty mins, and since you start with unlimited continues, i can basically tape down the x button and complete it. The translation is horrible, there is like zero innovation. Ooh a bomb button, thats original.

This game should only be recommended as a collectors item. Any other shooter overshadows it. Oh heres one, and its a flash game!

http://swift.atspace.com/index2.htm


Is 2 any better?

[heurhface]

This entire thread is silly beyond words.
You're supposed adults complaining about the games that kids play.
Either grow up or shut up.
Play your game. If someone else doesn't like it... sod 'em.

*returns to the lurk from whence he came*

[the2bears]

This entire thread is silly beyond words.
You're supposed adults complaining about the games that kids play.
Either grow up or shut up.
Play your game. If someone else doesn't like it... sod 'em.

*returns to the lurk from whence he came*

Ah come on, heurhface. Nothing wrong with a little complaining. Pretty healthy. If you don't like it... if people want to talk about this... sod 'em. Right? What do you care, don't piss on the thread because of it There are some funny stories in here regardless.

Bill

[Guardians Knight]

seconded heurhface

i was about to post a similar msg but i guess i was beaten to it

i would say its only true about 90% of this topic, the funny quotes from shop assistants made me laugh out loud.

amusingly whenever people come into my room and see my tated tv they cant understand why id do such a thing, one of my brothers thought that that it was so i could lie on my side in bed and watch the telly the right way round, lol.

oh yeah and a funny thing someone said when justifying their dislike for beat em ups was: 'but they are all crap all you do is...fight'. in this chaps defence he did own a 3D0 and probably needed to be labotomised for the experience.

[Zweihander]

i love the "all you do is shoot" argument from mainstreamers. all you do in FPS's is shoot. all you do in fighting games is fight. all you do in sports games is throw a ball around. all you do in a racing game is drive. all you do in RPG's is level-cram so you can beat the boss, then wash rinse and repeat. scoring systems help vary shmups, battle systems help vary RPG's, and various gameplay elements vary sports, racing, FPS, and fighting games. while i personally dislike sports, racing, and FPS games, i can see some innovations in the genre, like NFL Blitz's comedic violence, Half Life 2's gravity gun, Initial D's drifting feature, etc. but i guess expecting a mainstreamer to see the beauty of 2-D scrolling games, and to recognize gameplay over graphics, is a lost cause.

[SAM]

amusingly whenever people come into my room and see my tated tv they cant understand why id do such a thing, one of my brothers thought that that it was so i could lie on my side in bed and watch the telly the right way round, lol.

One of my friend play shmups lying on his side, so that he could play veritcal shmups in full screen mode. In other words, he tates himself.

[Twiddle]

i love the "all you do is shoot" argument from mainstreamers. all you do in FPS's is shoot. all you do in fighting games is fight. all you do in sports games is throw a ball around. all you do in a racing game is drive. all you do in RPG's is level-cram so you can beat the boss, then wash rinse and repeat. scoring systems help vary shmups, battle systems help vary RPG's, and various gameplay elements vary sports, racing, FPS, and fighting games. while i personally dislike sports, racing, and FPS games, i can see some innovations in the genre, like NFL Blitz's comedic violence, Half Life 2's gravity gun, Initial D's drifting feature, etc. but i guess expecting a mainstreamer to see the beauty of 2-D scrolling games, and to recognize gameplay over graphics, is a lost cause.

If it doesn't have gangstaz shooting each other over their turf, if it doesn't have you shooting Hitler in the face in the end, if it doesn't have a 40 second intermission of cheerleaders between each 5 second play session, if it isn't a game where player skill is completely replaced by time (MMORPGs), it's not a game worth looking at.

I'm not saying mainstreamers don't have good taste -- RE4 and Half-Life 2 were well recieved -- but it's primarily what they look for.

[howmuchkeefe]

I haven't had to suffer too much anti-shmup rhetoric. Everyone I've shown R-Type Final to loved the way it looked, my brother thought Ikaruga was too hard, but otherwise really well done... about the most negative feedback I've recieved over shmups would have to be the time I was threatened with death over the music in Shikigami no Shiro II (by my brother, and I could totally see where he was coming from).

[Arvandor]

Everyone I've come in contact with, when shooters come up in conversation, they're either die-hard shooter fans, or they'll say something along the lines of "Oh, those, I like those, but they're insanely hard and I suck at 'em. They are fun though."

[visuatrox]

while this isn't really an anti-shmup thing...

i was at circuit city looking into getting a hi-def set, and in talking to a clerk, tate was mentioned (in context, he had asked about games i play). it was fun trying to explain to him why i would rotate my television... on purpose. he just couldn't grasp what i was saying...

Hehe.. This reminds me when I was shopping for a TFT monitor with pivot. I asked if it could rotate both ways and got a blank stare from the sales guy.

(And I don't ever talk about shmups with "normal" people, but this time I had to explain )

[neorichieb1971]

If you show someone a shmup and you are crap at it, its likely to be seen as a crap game. Show someone some master skills and they will likely appreciate what its forcing you to achieve by sheer amazement. This is because the simplistic action on the screen is easily related to skill.

See shmups (especially chaotic ones) work like magic with non shmup fans because you know about the hit box, how to graze, how to learn patterns. All they see is someone doing something they THINK they could never do.

I've never come across anyone who has bad mouthed a shmup, but I haven't found anyone willing to learn the genre either.