Which shmups have the best "flow" to you?

[Feedbacker]

You know what, everything in DOJ is amazing.

[rjosal]

+1 on DOJ flow. It had to be a focus given the scoring mechanic.

[Skykid]

DOJ stage 2 is the pinnacle of shooter design.

The way you hold your fire at the start before activating your stocked hypers to kick things off.

The way you keep that bee on the factory roof on-screen for what seems like a lifetime before finally grabbing it at the last moment as you cross the screen to connect your chain.

That light touch to keep enough enemies alive so you can use the power-up carrier as the final stepping-stone to connect to the mid-boss.

Then finally, if you've been a good boy and the chain is healthy and ready to bear fruit, you grab those bees, wait for the fifth and final hyper to float down like a care-package from the lord, grab it and let it go. Now your hyper flows like a mighty river, washing away the enemy forces which are now coming in huge number, but it's no use because the music is kicking into high gear, your hyper is fully tumescent, the points just keep coming in, and you realize you have slipped the surly bonds of nerd and touched the face of Ikeda. As the hyper reaches its end, so does the stage, but you still have the presence of mind to grab those last two bees at the end like two quick pecks on the left and right cheek as you kiss the stage goodnight.

Cave made a lot of good games since, but they never again reached the heights of DOJ.

Amen.

[NTSC-J]

It's nice to see such a consensus for once, but I guess it's just that good of a game.

NTSC-J's post of DOJ stage 2 is perfect, but stage 4 is also fantastic. I love how the music ramps up in intensity during the harder parts of the stage, both for survival and chaining. You could also argue this for stage 5, the music ramps up during the beehive section only to play the main theme during the midboss, and repeats during the final half of the stage when you are almost done. I also remember stating that stage 3 itself has a very nice flow to it. You know what, everything in DOJ is amazing.

Originally, I started writing about stage 4 because it's so masterful. Really distinct segments with the most creative and perhaps most harrowing stage-long chain. I think my wife must get jealous when she sees the look in my eye when I watch someone keep the chain alive with those bullet shells at the large cannon.

But then I thought, well stage 5 has just as many great moments and if you want to talk about flow, the timing of the bosses from DDP is so perfectly executed, that one deserves my top pick.

But then I thought again, hell, stage 1 says so much in such a short time, why not that one.

But then stage 3 is so gorgeous and has that wonderful segment leading up to the mid-boss which is made even better with the best music track in the game.

So then of course I went with stage 2 for the reasons I already gave, plus I think it's chain is more accessible than stage 4 or 5's.

DOJ is the album where every song is a hit single.

[Strikers1945guy]

So..... DOJ for president?

[Cee]

When you become somewhat competent at them id have to say the psyvariars especially revision is hands down the most flow ridden game i've ever played, the stage pacing and the constant grazing based level ups is just in a league of it's own as far as flow is concerned.

[splitt442]

I always loved Fireshark for it's flow, the game is just a massive romp.

[LordHypnos]

I wonder how everyone defines "flow." I think we all have our own unique idea of what flow is. So, it would be neat to hear that, and I think it would go a ways to explain why we think Cho Ren Sha 68K or Border Down has flow.

I like Jenova Chen's approach, where "flow" talks about a zen state: you are neither bored by something too easy nor bothered by something too hard, but instead, you are smack in the middle. But then, determining what games have "flow" for you is determined by your skill set: whether you're better at memorization or at reflexes, etc.

Didn't check out the link, but this actually describes my experience with Mars Matrix perfectly. If I did more chaining in Stage 2 I think it really would have no boring points and no painfully frustrating parts. Well, I guess there's not much I can do about the stage 5 boss. That's kind of painfully frustrating, but other than that it's all right in the zone difficultywise which explains why it's really the only game I can play for hours without getting bored or frustrated (not that I've done that for a while).

With the topic, Psikyo games immediately came to mind as games that really perfect and fine-tune stage design. I feel like just about everything in a Psikyo stage works:

1) randomized order prevents you from getting complacent about easy early stages

2) enemy waves are almost never repeated, meaning each stage is its own unique entity

3) excellent balance between larger, more threatening enemies and devious zako waves meant to throw you off your game (and into a bullet)

and most importantly

4) stages are extremely short and to the point - after >2minutes of shooting and dodging, a difficult boss shows up to really put the screws on you.

I think as they went on, the company really perfected the notion of cutting the fat out of shmup stages. No boring enemy waves repeated endlessly from one side of the screen then another. Only a few power-ups necessary, and a multitude of attacks (in later games) that let you both memorize and improvise. Short length coupled with extreme difficulty to give scrubs like myself something to aspire towards.

I'm not 100% convinced that I'd equate this with flow, but this is a really good analysis what makes Psikyo games so enjoyable. I would equate a lot of this with pacing, which Psikyo really is the king of.

[hamfighterx]

Mars Matrix followed by Giga Wing are my favorites for "flow", the absorb/reflect mechanic with cooldown timer really gets me in "the zone" and stages feel brisk and energtic. Mars Matrix's enemy patterns and stage design are positively hypnotic to me.

FWIW, Giga Wing 2 is decidedly less "flowy" - I find it bloated and sluggish in comparison to MM and GW1.

The musc supports the feeling in all of these. MM is trancey, GW1 has a driving focused beat, and GW2's bizarre classical style just doesn't work for me from a flow perspective.

[HardcoreOtaku]

Lords/Winds of Thunder.

[copy-paster]

Lords/Winds of Thunder.

What's the flow?

[KevinDDR]

Have to say it.

battlegareg.ga

[Stevens]

Hmm.

After reading LH's comment perhaps I have mistaken pacing for flow too..

More research required.

[LordHypnos]

Hmm.

After reading LH's comment perhaps I have mistaken pacing for flow too..

More research required.

Well, in fairness, flow is not a very specifically defined thing, so while I don't necessarily think flow == pacing, there may be others who disagree with me. I'm kind of thinking of it as a sort of rhythm that the game seems to have. Then again, would a slow paced game feel like it has good flow? maybe not. I feel like it would interfere a bit with the flow.

[Feedbacker]

Nice to see all that DOJ love here.

Too bad the ranking boards are dead as hell, post you scores guys !

[Lyv]

anything slow paced has a bad flow.
anything with milks, checkpoints, or both combined (worst scenario) has a bad flow.

This.
I took out the part about looping though.

Any game with a chaining system is a strong contender for "best flow", but to me the flow also largely depends on the player performance. For example, I'm bad at anything DDP so I don't really get any exhilaration when playing it, but watching someone full-chain some stages tends to give this kind of feeling.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think Cho Ren Sha's hard mode low is kind of the opposite of me to DDP style chaining.

It's all about getting into the moment and rhythm of improvisational dodging. Kind of like a (MUCH) easier version of what DEL talks about here.

What I find interesting is that I don't feel it for the first two stages, but I almost always find myself "hyped" by the time I hit the third stage on a good run. It's a rare thing, for a game to consistently trigger that feeling in me.

[Despatche]

DOJ is god. Mushi stage 4 is great. Futari stage 3 and 4 are ok but they repeat too much.

Noone should be talking about Mars Matrix unless it's the DC version.

You have just described Ikaruga - perfect flow.

Yeah, Ikaruga is literally flow: the game like DOJ is, but everyone's supposed to hate Ikaruga so it'll never be talked about.

[Shepardus]

I was debating whether to include Ikaruga in my post, but ended up cutting it out because my post was getting too long already and I haven't really chained much in Ikaruga. Some parts flow really nicely by themselves (stage 3's my favorite), but other parts like stage 2 require that you chain properly to get much "flow" out of them (stage 2 without bothering for score is really pretty meh). Superplays, both single-player and doubleplays, really show off the top-tier choreography as it was meant to be. I guess you could say the same about Battle Bakraid and many other games, that the scoring mechanics create flow that otherwise wouldn't be there.

On another note, there's a lot of talk about DOJ here but not nearly as much for Dodonpachi. Yes, I know stages 1 and 3 can't be full-chained, but the rest flow really well and are even fun without going for score.