Which shmups have the best "flow" to you?

[Squire Grooktook]

I was going for a score run in Cho Ren Sha 68k (hard mode) the other day, and amidst some of the light ennui some stg have been giving me lately, I was really amazed by how hype the game makes me feel whenever I reach stage 3 and onward, even on just an "average" run. People often talk about "flow" in games, and I think this game, for me, just has that magical quality to its pace and action that always gets me joyful and excited by the time it builds up past the first few stages.

What games do you get that kind of feeling out of? I kind of feel it a bit too during some of the later/longer stages in Cave's modern titles. I'm not super huge into Mushi or Futari, but the pace in stage 4 + 5 always "feel" good to me after the first 3 stages.

[chum]

anything that loops has a bad flow.
anything slow paced has a bad flow.
anything with milks, checkpoints, or both combined (worst scenario) has a bad flow.

in other words no games have good flow!

[Shepardus]

Have to second you on Cho Ren Sha 68k, I was just playing that last night. Didn't even get past the first loop in hard mode but it still felt really fun and exciting.

I can't go without mentioning Battle Bakraid, which has really amazing flow but only if you're actually chaining the stages. The cycle of bombs and suicides and extends is really something I wish more people bothered to experience. Connecting a chain into a boss still hasn't gotten old to me. It manages to remain challenging to me without being as breakneck-fast as, say, Dangun Feveron, nor as constantly demanding of precision as Dodonpachi, which gives it this unique rhythm to me that I really enjoy. Go play Battle Bakraid, you won't regret it.

Dragon Blaze surprised me with how well its stages flow - I don't typically attribute that quality to Psikyo games, but Dragon Blaze has some really fun stages encouraging a lot of activity and movement, especially if you're trying to score. The dragonshot mechanic also creates this natural rhythm that I like, and different characters have different tempos to them.

CAVE's titles are obvious contenders - that's where I think their greatest strength lies. Dodonpachi's an obvious example of this (the chaining directly enforces some sort of "flow"), but my favorite is actually Ketsui with its fun bullet patterns and enemy movements and the rhythm its scoring mechanics encourage. Dangun Feveron is also great since the caravan-style enemy spawning/quick-kills mechanic minimizes downtime so you've always got a lot to do. (Thunder Dragon 2 also has a similar mechanic and I like it for that same reason.)

[ACSeraph]

Eschatos is the God of shmup "flow"

[KAI]

Radirgy and Karous. Seriously. Go play them. 25 mins long caravans. best flow ever.

[Bananamatic]

judgement silversword has a divine flow

[d0s]

R+R on the X68K has a great rhythm, which I guess is like flow. I just know it feels super good to play switching between wide and narrow shots at the right time. UPL's Omega Fighter also comes to mind, the way the game moves just makes me happy and I find myself playing it just to zone out to

[trap15]

Thunder Dragon 2, particularly stages 3, 5, and 6. Mushihimesama Original stage 4 also has this insane level of flow to it. Garegga stage 6 is another huge contender, as is pretty much all of Bakraid (Naval particularly).

This topic is incredibly interesting to me as a designer, I think anyone interested in STG design at any level should be interested in the responses here.

[monouchi]

I will join on Bakraid with its short levels, it flows really quick and smooth, bosses too.

[Skykid]

I'm down with CRS68k and Judgement Silversword as good examples, but DOJ is like a hot dick through butter.

[Jeneki]

To me, the flow of Cho Ren Sha is mostly about enemy placement. Feels great as it naturally pulls you from enemy to enemy, back and forth across the screen. Viper Phase 1 after the first stage has a lot of this as well; I'm always getting pulled exactly where I need to be for the next kill.

Also scoring and enemy placement in Ketsui. That tank that rolled out of a bunker towards the bottom half of the screen, just before a large enemy dies? That's not random placement, he's there to naturally flow into 5-cubing that big mofo.

Radirgy and Karous.

I know these games aren't super popular here, but I do like how attack waves are built to go balls to the wall and recharge specials before the last one wears off. Sort of like running along a cliff edge; perfectly safe but always in danger.

[qmish]

judgement silversword has a divine flow

yes! absolutely amazed me. Well, i bought it instead of Eschatos (for now...) and dont regret

[NTSC-J]

DOJ stage 2 is the pinnacle of shooter design.

The way you hold your fire at the start before activating your stocked hypers to kick things off.

The way you keep that bee on the factory roof on-screen for what seems like a lifetime before finally grabbing it at the last moment as you cross the screen to connect your chain.

That light touch to keep enough enemies alive so you can use the power-up carrier as the final stepping-stone to connect to the mid-boss.

Then finally, if you've been a good boy and the chain is healthy and ready to bear fruit, you grab those bees, wait for the fifth and final hyper to float down like a care-package from the lord, grab it and let it go. Now your hyper flows like a mighty river, washing away the enemy forces which are now coming in huge number, but it's no use because the music is kicking into high gear, your hyper is fully tumescent, the points just keep coming in, and you realize you have slipped the surly bonds of nerd and touched the face of Ikeda. As the hyper reaches its end, so does the stage, but you still have the presence of mind to grab those last two bees at the end like two quick pecks on the left and right cheek as you kiss the stage goodnight.

Cave made a lot of good games since, but they never again reached the heights of DOJ.

[Shepardus]

Granted, I've never fully chained any stage before, but stage 4 is my favorite in DOJ for its variety of enemy movement patterns - I especially like the part with the diagonally-moving platforms carrying tanks, even though it never fails to kill me or force a bomb.

[qmish]

^ and now i feel as a total noob

hypers usage? chaining? lord, i'm just trying not to die, and you are speaking about killing enemies in certain patterns
(yes i never get past stage 3 or if i m lucky stage 4 on one credit)

[copy-paster]

If you two choose DOJ stage 2 and 4, I'd pick 3!

I don't know but TBH this stage is my personal favorite, the way the enemies attacking you, the bullet pattern, the music, the mid boss (and the boss too).

[donluca]

^ and now i feel as a total noob

hypers usage? chaining? lord, i'm just trying not to die, and you are speaking about killing enemies in certain patterns
(yes i never get past stage 3 or if i m lucky stage 4 on one credit)

Same here, don't worry pal

[Stevens]

I would argue that Under Defeat has an amazing flow despite its more methodical pace. Its flow is based around using your option, and having it recharge just as you need it again.

From that perspective its brilliant.

[Obscura]

Raiden III is the "flow-iest" shmup ever. Total zen.

Fourthing DOJ, although I'd actually say it's stage 5 that's "the one".

[Plasmo]

anything that loops has a bad flow.
anything slow paced has a bad flow.
anything with milks, checkpoints, or both combined (worst scenario) has a bad flow.

You have just described Ikaruga - perfect flow.

[Kollision]

When I think of flow I think of transitions

Einhänder
RayForce
Soukyugurentai
Thunder Force III MD

[amdiggywhut]

Crimzon Clover deserves to be mentioned here.

[LordHypnos]

Broken record reporting in to say that Mars Matrix has amazing flow when you're chaining. Even if you're not, but especially if you are.

Cho Ren Sha also definitely comes to mind for flow. Both these games have really great feeling rhythm for whatever reason.

[EmperorIng]

With the topic, Psikyo games immediately came to mind as games that really perfect and fine-tune stage design. I feel like just about everything in a Psikyo stage works:

1) randomized order prevents you from getting complacent about easy early stages

2) enemy waves are almost never repeated, meaning each stage is its own unique entity

3) excellent balance between larger, more threatening enemies and devious zako waves meant to throw you off your game (and into a bullet)

and most importantly

4) stages are extremely short and to the point - after >2minutes of shooting and dodging, a difficult boss shows up to really put the screws on you.

I think as they went on, the company really perfected the notion of cutting the fat out of shmup stages. No boring enemy waves repeated endlessly from one side of the screen then another. Only a few power-ups necessary, and a multitude of attacks (in later games) that let you both memorize and improvise. Short length coupled with extreme difficulty to give scrubs like myself something to aspire towards.

[Some-Mist]

maybe it's just because I'm a huge fan... but bullet cancelling in progear just feels so right when you get the hang of it. the way you can manipulate the flow of the bullets over enemies to cancel a giant spread or even gem streaming....

ohhhhhhhhhh

[Strikers1945guy]

I'm down with CRS68k and Judgement Silversword as good examples, but DOJ is like a hot dick through butter.

Happy to see DOJ mentioned. Best flow in an STG ever.

[Strikers1945guy]

anything that loops has a bad flow.
anything slow paced has a bad flow.
anything with milks, checkpoints, or both combined (worst scenario) has a bad flow.

You have just described Ikaruga - perfect flow.

Polarity change - dot eater - polarity change - dot eater. Perfect flow indeed

[Dirty Casual]

I wonder how everyone defines "flow." I think we all have our own unique idea of what flow is. So, it would be neat to hear that, and I think it would go a ways to explain why we think Cho Ren Sha 68K or Border Down has flow.

I like Jenova Chen's approach, where "flow" talks about a zen state: you are neither bored by something too easy nor bothered by something too hard, but instead, you are smack in the middle. But then, determining what games have "flow" for you is determined by your skill set: whether you're better at memorization or at reflexes, etc.

[Eaglet]

Garegga as a game in itself doesn't have what you'd typically consider a great flow because everything is broken off by milking and a lot of timing and "dodge waiting" for good opportunities on bosses.
But, stage 5, 6 and 7 all have some pretty damn great flow when you play them like they're ment to be played.

Stage 5 where you're bombing the flying platforms, zipping back and forth and manipulating your options to kill everything with the right shot.
Stage 6 where you're trying to manage some rough survival and keeping a medal chain through some of the toughest situations in the game - and finally -
stage 7 which is a tense build up to the hardest boss fight in the game where you're trying your hardest to set up as many odds as possible in your favor and prepare yourself mentally for what can either be a glorious or hellish fight.
What it does better than any game I've ever played is manipulate your stress levels. The common situation going into the last boss fight is one where you're on minimal resources and shaking from excitement if you know that a new high score is within reach. A shitton of RNG and unpredictability can be an impressive thing indeed.

[ratikal]

Eschatos flow's very nicely stage through stage as does RayForce and Ketsui with their seamless stage transitions. They really do feel like a journey.

NTSC-J's post of DOJ stage 2 is perfect, but stage 4 is also fantastic. I love how the music ramps up in intensity during the harder parts of the stage, both for survival and chaining. You could also argue this for stage 5, the music ramps up during the beehive section only to play the main theme during the midboss, and repeats during the final half of the stage when you are almost done. I also remember stating that stage 3 itself has a very nice flow to it. You know what, everything in DOJ is amazing.