Getting into Shmups for real - how to?

[siemien]

Hello everyone. I used to play some shmups now and then, but I decided to get into them more seriously, so I thought why no ask you to help me Stuff I own is quite good PC (amd x2 4200, 4gb ram, 8600gt), PS2 console and a JLF-8 ps2/ps3 arcade stick. At this point I want to use what I have available, so buying ntsc-j x360 is out of the question. plus I don't have arcade stick made for this console. What are your suggestions? Play on Mame, get some Steam shmups or something else?

[Xyga]

Yup; MAME, Steam (and GOG.com)

There's the console emulators too, and a fairly large number of free PC shmups (Japanese 'doujin' amateur games).

[BulletMagnet]

Check here for a general overview of the PS2 shmup library; this and this might also be of interest.

[donluca]

Check Blue Wish Resurrection: it's a free game which I think it's great for beginners and people getting into shmups and danmaku.

I'm loving it.

[TransatlanticFoe]

MAME is "free" so checking out suggestions from the above Racketboy articles is as solid a bet as you can get.

Find out what style(s) you prefer (if any) and expand out from there. You don't really need a JP specific 360 either - most of the games are either region free, got a US/EU localisation or are available on PC (MAME or Steam). And you can get a PS2 to 360 controller adapter (xtokki) so you don't need a new stick for a 360. A 360 is probably the next step if you enjoy Cave games.

[siemien]

Thanks for your help. There is one minor problem or maybe a big one I live in EU, so I don't have any possibility to get shmups on PS2 in NTSC cheap or even normal price. I played quite a bit of MAME, so I know what I enjoy, but many of the games are considered super hard like DoDonpachi, Mushihimesama or espgaluda. Super hard maybe for me Btw. I don't like shmups like R-Type where ship moves verticaly up and down. I just do enjoy them, that's why I never went far in R-type or Gradius. At one point I was thinking about a MAME cabinet just for shmups

I checked some games on racketboy (I know that site from my ps2 collection) and boy, some prices are from other planet...

[Squire Grooktook]

Check Blue Wish Resurrection: it's a free game which I think it's great for beginners and people getting into shmups and danmaku.

I'm loving it.

On the same note, Cho Ren Sha 68k is great for beginners, free to download, and tied for my favorite Shmup with Rayforce.

[HardcoreOtaku]

Buy a PC Engine set up that can play Super CD games.
Then buy Lords/Winds of Thunder.
You will then understand everything there is to know about shoot 'em ups.
There is nothing more.

[Squire Grooktook]

There is nothing more.

I like Lords of Thunder too, but there are a lot of different flavors out there and one game can never account for them all.

I know you're joking, but this is always worth bringing up.

[Shepardus]

Check Blue Wish Resurrection: it's a free game which I think it's great for beginners and people getting into shmups and danmaku.

I'm loving it.

On the same note, Cho Ren Sha 68k is great for beginners, free to download, and tied for my favorite Shmup with Rayforce.

You can't go wrong with Cho Ren Sha 68k. Just make sure you run it in Windows 95 compatibility mode or use something like RunFirst to force it to run on one core, because it's old and can have issues with multi-core PCs (which is pretty much all of them nowadays).

Blue Wish Resurrection and/or Blue Wish Resurrection Plus (you can find both here; Plus is considered to be easier with its autoguard feature) is also a good recommendation. I'd also recommend Mecha Ritz, Astebreed (find it on Steam, GOG, or Playism), Crimzon Clover: World Ignition (available on Steam and GOG; the arcade difficulty is very difficult but the novice modes aren't), or any of Kenta Cho's games. Also check out the Touhou series, they've got a reputation for being hard (hence the whole "Touhou is harder" meme) but that's because idiots keep telling beginners to play on the hardest difficulty or else they're babies; ZUN does a better job than most at tailoring different difficulty levels to suit all skill levels and it'd be a shame to ignore that.

I played quite a bit of MAME, so I know what I enjoy, but many of the games are considered super hard like DoDonpachi, Mushihimesama or espgaluda. Super hard maybe for me

Dodonpachi (and the whole series, really) has a reputation for being super difficult but the first loop is pretty approachable - it'd still be challenging for a beginner but it's nothing like the crazy stuff you tend to see on YouTube of the second loop and final boss.

Same with Mushihimesama, people know it and its sequel (Mushihimesama Futari) for their Ultra modes, but there are three different modes you can choose from which are all different experiences, even featuring different scoring systems. Original mode in particular is very approachable, and in fact was designed to be accessible even to beginners intimidated by the other modes. If you want to play Mushihimesama, don't bother with MAME and just get it on Steam (it's also on Xbox 360 and PS2 but I think both are region-locked). MAME emulation of Mushihimesama and any CAVE game following it is rather lacking, and the ports have extras like Novice mode and Arrange mode.

Espgaluda was also intended to be relatively beginner-friendly (not Espgaluda II though), and it's one of CAVE's easier games, though I'd say it's still harder than Mushihimesama Original or a one-loop clear of Dodonpachi.

Other approachable arcade shmups include Armed Police Batrider (Normal Course at least; Advanced Course is pretty tough), Battle Bakraid (also Normal Course), and Batsugun Special Version.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Psyvariar -Complete Edition- PAL can be found dirt-cheap and its both games output 60 Hz (needs to be enabled in each game's settings - there's no mode selector upon boot). Under Defeat HD is on fairly affordable side for a shmup as well. To name two titles you can play on PAL consoles legit pretty soon.

[Xyga]

It's exclusively console shmups or ports, but here's an useful read: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... difficulty

[Obiwanshinobi]

About Psyvariar games, I might add those are rare examples of shmups that must be played with a stick to get the most out of them (unless keyboard works at least as well for you), so if you have such a decent controller for PS2, you could do worse than get hold of Complete Edition.

[AxelMill]

DariusBurst Chronicle Saviours is one of the most accessible shmups I've played, thanks to its very easy to very hard routes, and its shortness: if you game over at the very last boss, you'll have merely "wasted" 15 minutes, instead of half an hour to an hour (Gradius V, R-Type Final, Zanac, or some Genesis games, for instance). It's fantastic, too.

If you want a stupidly easy shmup, instead, Shienryu Explosion/Steel Dragon EX is for you. It's two games in one, it's really cheap, and the new game included requires little to no effort to beat. The other one...

Zanac X Zanac's Zanac Neo, if you can get to play it (it's Jap-only, if you don't have a PSOne Classics-compatible console), is also pretty easy, as it contains countless extends. I admit it isn't really memorable, and the bosses are nothing but variations of "A Bunch Of Turrets", but it's kinda fun.

Taito Legends 2 is excellent and not expensive, but you'll have to choose between PS2's Raystorm, G-Darius and Syvalion, and PC's Rayforce. Or get both. Either way, there are plenty of other good shmups, like Gekirindan, Gun Frontier, Metal Black, Darius Gaiden...
I'd buy this one first, if I were you. I had countless hours of fun with this game, and so should you.
None of them are easy, but you don't want the easy ones, you want the good ones to play for a long time, don't you? And these are the good ones.

MAME emulation of Mushihimesama and any CAVE game following it is rather lacking,

Mameui64 runs them perfectly, save for music skipping, at times. Game breaking, for Daifukkatsu Black Label, I know. YES YOU ARE PERFECTLY RIGHT

I love this topic, keep it up!

[trap15]

Mameui64 runs them perfectly, save for music skipping, at times. Game breaking, for Daifukkatsu Black Label, I know.

It really doesn't, the games run entirely wrong. And that music skipping is it not running at 100% on your computer. That alone should say something.

[Bananamatic]

Mameui64 runs them perfectly, save for music skipping, at times. Game breaking, for Daifukkatsu Black Label, I know.

can we let this meme die...

[AxelMill]

It really doesn't, the games run entirely wrong. And that music skipping is it not running at 100% on your computer. That alone should say something.

Oh.
I was wondering why MKX ran at 60fps, but Cave shmups didn't.

can we let this meme die...

Sorry, I came here two months ago, I didn't know that DFKBL's OST, or Mameui not really working, was a meme.

[trap15]

The meme is that MAME can play CV1k games decently. They cannot, do not say otherwise because you're literally provably incorrect.

[copy-paster]

So you don't like hori shooter?

If it's so, I do suggest play Samurai Aces or 19XX, simple pattern at it's finest.

[Shepardus]

Like trap15 said, the music skips when your computer can't handle emulating the game at 100% speed. You can see for yourself if you press F11 and look at the speed percentage. CV1k emulation in MAME right now is a lot more taxing on the CPU than most other games in MAME, and unless your CPU has a relatively high clock rate it's going to dip below 100%. Note that if it's just emulated slowdown it'll still say 100%. But that's another thing, since MAME doesn't emulate the slowdown at all unless you turn on that "blitter rate" thing, which is more of an approximate hack for the sake of having something at all (it's disabled by default for a reason). I think this is the most glaring flaw in the current emulation, given how much most of CAVE's CV1k games rely on that slowdown.

I still think it's playable in a casual sense, but it still has a long ways to go before emulation is a viable substitute for the PCB/Xbox 360 port like it is for CAVE's earlier games (which still aren't perfect but any differences are very subtle in comparison).

But anyway many of CAVE's later games are expected to come to PC sooner or later (Mushihimesama's out already and Deathsmiles has been announced, and there's supposedly one more confirmed but unspecified as to which one), so just buy them legitimately when you can. Of the CV1k shmups only Ibara, Ibara Kuro, Pink Sweets, and Muchi Muchi Pork seem unlikely to me to get PC ports.

[gray117]

Pay monies... it's a niche access isn't easy. (Or do a bit of that and, in generally reducing order of acceptance, hack/emulate/pirate.)

I joke but it's a genuine issue depending on your acceptance of any of the above and predilection to either knuckle down on a single game at a time, or play lots of games here and there.

Perhaps play some free or cheap games, maybe emulate some classics to educate yourself on your own preferences and then honestly make some informed choices about put your attention/money.

Some personal recommendations to kick you off:
Steam has ikaruga cheap (i.e. might like something a little different/play mechanics within a shooting game). Dondonpachi on mame (i.e. do you like cave games? If not probably no need to consider 360...). Blazing star on emulation/or likely you phone (i.e. like r-type ish games). Beyond that start developing your tastes and buying into what you prefer in terms of difficulty/look/platform.

[Bananamatic]

But that's another thing, since MAME doesn't emulate the slowdown at all unless you turn on that "blitter rate" thing, which is more of an approximate hack for the sake of having something at all (it's disabled by default for a reason). I think this is the most glaring flaw in the current emulation, given how much most of CAVE's CV1k games rely on that slowdown.

the input lag in mame is absolutely ridiculous

[NTSC-J]

I'll keep the meme alive and defend the MAME emulation only as it regards Muchi Pork. I've played every version and I think MAME is fine. It's missing slowdown, but so is the 360 port, and at least the emulation doesn't have the altered enemy formations. I don't seem to perform any better on the PCB despite more slowdown and without the "absolutely ridiculous" input lag. Now, it is at the arcade and I play more reserved there than I do at home, so if I bought the PCB again and had a nice cab, I'm sure I'd produce higher scores, but there wouldn't be a massive change.

I can see it making more of a difference in harder games like Futari Ultra or in something like Deathsmiles that has a scoring system based around precise timing, so probably best to avoid those in MAME.

[donluca]

the input lag in mame is absolutely ridiculous

I didn't know 16-18ms input lag was regarded as "ridiculous"

Here's the thing: cv1k games have only ONE issue in a properly set up MAME which is the slowdown emulation. This translates to places where there's no slowdown (and there should be) and the amount of slowdown being incorrect.
That's all.
Yeah, I know it's kind of a big deal when the screen fills with bullets going at high speeds instead of getting slowed down, but if you can live with that and have a powerful PC to run the game at 100% speed without frameskip, you can definitely enjoy cv1k games on MAME.

I think we should make a sticky post about this since it's a recurring topic.

EDIT: back on topic, I wouldn't suggest Mushi or other modern CAVE games to a beginner. I find the Original mode of Mushi harder than Maniac due to the bullets travelling at a higher speeds.
Batsugun Special is really the easiest shmup you can get and it works perfectly in MAME.

[AxelMill]

Oh God, what have I done?
Quick, back on topic, before the world collapses.

Uuuh, Image Fight, that's totally accessible. And... Gradius III AC.

[gray117]

Input lag doesn't matter starting out.

If he likes something he can start climbing down all the same cost related rabbit holes that the rest of us do and buy ports/boards/screens/scalers and all the rest of it.

For now all he just need to do is work out what he likes

[Jeneki]

Image Fight, that's totally accessible. And... Gradius III AC.

Don't forget Sengeki Striker (asia version).

On the free downloads side, I'd go with Cho Ren Sha 68k. Also I think there's a free release of XOP now which has some good beginner difficulty settings for slowly ramping up as you get better.

[siemien]

I own a 21,5" 16:9 lcd and dont have pivot rotation, so I play all shmups on auto aspect and stuff. I was wondering how is it with x360? It connects to a hdtv that is 16:9 also, so how people play ports like that?

[Bananamatic]

I'll keep the meme alive and defend the MAME emulation only as it regards Muchi Pork. I've played every version and I think MAME is fine. It's missing slowdown, but so is the 360 port, and at least the emulation doesn't have the altered enemy formations. I don't seem to perform any better on the PCB despite more slowdown and without the "absolutely ridiculous" input lag. Now, it is at the arcade and I play more reserved there than I do at home, so if I bought the PCB again and had a nice cab, I'm sure I'd produce higher scores, but there wouldn't be a massive change.

I can see it making more of a difference in harder games like Futari Ultra or in something like Deathsmiles that has a scoring system based around precise timing, so probably best to avoid those in MAME.

I've played mushi, futari and galuda 2 on it some years ago and for some reason I cleared futari maniac and galuda 2 pretty fast while I couldn't do shit about mushi original or maniac

dfk is a complete joke too, i even failed to 1-all the game the first time i tried the emulation (and I managed to 2-all ura before), that's how bad it is

Input lag doesn't matter starting out.

yes, let him quit after he becomes frustrated with not being able to clear mushi original because he's not actually playing mushi but some weird ass distorted mess that's 5x harder than it should be

and he gets some fuccbois telling him how the emulation is "perfectly fine" because mushi original doesn't have slowdown anyways

[gray117]

Input lag doesn't matter starting out.

yes, let him quit after he becomes frustrated with not being able to clear mushi original because he's not actually playing mushi but some weird ass distorted mess that's 5x harder than it should be

and he gets some fuccbois telling him how the emulation is "perfectly fine" because mushi original doesn't have slowdown anyways

You would presumably advise someone who doesn't want to buy a j360, or even import games, to instead buy a board and an egret 2 then? Cool investment when perhaps he turns round and says he doesn't think he actually likes danmaku shmups?

He needs to feel out what he likes. More specific discussions can be had in in extraordinary detail once he's interested in something specific. No one's saying emulation is fine. Quite the opposite - that much is more than abundantly clear from a casual scan of this thread. But it's really over the top to start dissecting that stuff before he decides what he's into (or not), or has read enough info to know that most poeple either rotate their screens when using a 360, or have a big enough hdtv it doesn't matter, and that the ports all have screen rotate and scale options (except the version of ddp within instant brain) and that a 360 can also be set to work on a 4:3 screen if available and several resolutions from 640x480 to 1920x1080 ...