XRGB-mini Framemeister

[FBX]

Can somebody else check and confirm 1920x1080p scanlines are uniform on the Xbox profiles? I'm still getting reports from hipster that the 4:3 profile is off, but it looks perfect on my end.

[Shuco13]

Also of important note is that I now do all my profiling via DVI 1920x1080 mode. This is because of the already mentioned issue of HDMI 1080p mode incorrectly converting colors in RGB mode. I recommend everyone that is using 1080p profiles make the switch to 1080p DVI. This will get rid of overblown greens and dulled reds for example.

FBX, I respect you for your hard work on profiles but I would strictly recommend against using DVI instead of HDMI for the following reasons:

1. Scanlines are thinner in DVI mode (like in your 5x profiles) in comparison to HDMI.
2. On DVI the input signal gets completely ignored and converted to an uniform output. Especially with component sources this is very hard to compensate.
3. Greens in HDMI mode are adjustable using A/D-, RGB- and BRIGHTNESS settings.

I can only repeat that the following preset gave me the least trouble for getting everything right on RGB and component:
HDMI
MOVIE/PICTURE
RGB: AUTO
RGB RANGE: FULL
DEEP COLOR: OFF
A/D: MANUAL

Edit: Then restart the mini to prevent it being in failsafe mode.

[Fudoh]

1. Scanlines are thinner in DVI mode (like in your 5x profiles) in comparison to HDMI.

why is that ? Are they rendered differently or do different options apply to them ?

[hipstir]

FBX,

4x3 Settings:
1. Profile loaded for 4x3
2. XRGB aspect ration set for 4x3
3. XBOX via xbmc is set for normal.

4x3 Output:
Dark scanlines every 50 pixels or so! P.S. The issue goes away if I change the XRGB aspect ratio to widescreen. Maybe you forgot to set it to 4x3 when working on this profile?

Widescreen Settings:
1. Profile loaded for widescreen
2. XRGB aspect ration set for widescreen
3. XBOX via xbmc is set for widescreen

Widescreen Output:
Everything looks great!

[FBX]

Also of important note is that I now do all my profiling via DVI 1920x1080 mode. This is because of the already mentioned issue of HDMI 1080p mode incorrectly converting colors in RGB mode. I recommend everyone that is using 1080p profiles make the switch to 1080p DVI. This will get rid of overblown greens and dulled reds for example.

FBX, I respect you for your hard work on profiles but I would strictly recommend against using DVI instead of HDMI for the following reasons:

1. Scanlines are thinner in DVI mode (like in your 5x profiles) in comparison to HDMI.
2. On DVI the input signal gets completely ignored and converted to an uniform output. Especially with component sources this is very hard to compensate.
3. Greens in HDMI mode are adjustable using A/D-, RGB- and BRIGHTNESS settings.

I can only repeat that the following preset gave me the least trouble for getting everything right on RGB and component:
HDMI
MOVIE/PICTURE
RGB: AUTO
RGB RANGE: FULL
DEEP COLOR: OFF
A/D: MANUAL

Edit: Then restart the mini to prevent it being in failsafe mode.

1. Scanlines appeared identical on my end in DVI mode. In BOTH modes, scanlines are thinner on 5x scale profiles.
2. What do you mean by "converted to an uniform output"?
3. As I said before, A/D should never be adjusted beyond a few points since it crushes colors together. RGB values don't solve the problem either because reducing green or any other color makes true white fall to a lopsided white that favors the other two colors. Lastly, brightness should be left at 25 or lower. Any brighter, and you start to see a dark grey background instead of pure black.

As for your settings, I've tried every combination thereof and it does NOTHING to prevent the incorrect RGB coloring. The ONLY other way to trick the Framemeister into outputting correct colors in HDMI mode is to turn the console and display on before turning on the Framemeister. That forces it into YPbPr conversion which shows correct colors.

FBX,

Maybe you forgot to set it to 4x3 when working on this profile?

Impossible because it looked perfect on my end. Whatever the Framemeister's AR was set to doesn't matter because that is saved in the profile setting. So when I saw perfect scanlines, I saved the profile as is. The only other thing I can think of is that I did these profiles in DVI mode. There's a small chance that might have something to do with it. I'll check in HDMI mode later today.

Edit: I'm also going to do an image capture demonstration showing why messing with A/D beyond a few points is a bad idea, as well as show how the colors are incorrect no matter the color space settings.

[FBX]

Okay Just checked my 4:3 XBox 480p in 1080p on both DVI and HDMI mode. Here are the results:

1. AR is in fact set to 4:3 as saved by the profiles.

2. Scanlines are PERFECT in both modes.

3. Scanlines look identical in both modes.

So hipster, it has to be that thing you said you were using. What was it again? X2vga+?

Edit: Looked up the device, and yeah, I do not support that in my profiles. Mine are meant for Component directly into the Framemeister, and HDMI from the Framemeister directly to an HDTV or HD capture device.

Edit 2: My best guess is the X2VGA+ cannot handle a V_Width of 37. The Widescreen profiles use a V_Width of 33, which may be within range of the X2VGA+ as to why those profiles still look correct on it. To test this theory, I'm going to see if I can jive a uniform 4:3 scanline setting below V_Width of 32 since 32 - 36 don't work.

Edit 3: PM sent to hipster. New test profile uses V_Width default of 32, and uses Zoom_Size of 99 to compensate. Crossing fingers.

[Valandil]

Thanks guys, I tried adjusting the H_SCALER and V_SCALER and couldn't really notice a change in the shimmering/stuttering that I'm seeing, I went to both extremes and the issue was still showing. It's on the very top of the screen maybe 1-1.5 inches that I see this happening but you are right FBX the top line looks to shimmer more noticeably. I noticed that it also happens when scrolling vertically although with much less frequency.

I'm using FBX profiles and I'm certain to be following the instructions (1080p display, PS2PSCOM profile which gives H=4 V=7 with display area -1 and zoom enabled). Do you think that this is being caused by the PS2, cables or Framemeister? Maybe getting RGB cables and/or a PS1 could get rid of this?

I know that it's hard to imagine what I'm seeing on my end with my poor description, unfortunately I don't have a capture device. I tried getting a video with my cellphone but it doesn't really come through; in the video from My Life in Gaming you can briefly see this stutter/shimmering. Minute 11:49 - https://youtu.be/f7fCTHu99bk?t=11m49s that's what I'm seeing. Any additional ideas/theories on why this might be happening and how to get rid of it? It's really strange that so far Lunar is the only game I'm seeing this on, I tried FFVI also for the playstation with the same setup and it shows perfect.

Thanks again for the help and your ideas!

Hello everybody, I was able to upload a couple of videos showing my issue I described earlier with Lunar, hope you have some minutes in your day to take a look at those. The issue is present across the top of the screen, due to YouTube compression a lot of detail is lost however it still show the issue (I think).

Please let me know what you guys think. Thank you.

P.S. I couldn't get rid of the sound of the video, sorry for the background noise. Although it's not that loud I'd suggest muting the videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSfAv0F ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xttVdjn ... e=youtu.be

[FBX]

Hello everybody, I was able to upload a couple of videos showing my issue I described earlier with Lunar, hope you have some minutes in your day to take a look at those. The issue is present across the top of the screen, due to YouTube compression a lot of detail is lost however it still show the issue (I think).

Please let me know what you guys think. Thank you.

P.S. I couldn't get rid of the sound of the video, sorry for the background noise. Although it's not that loud I'd suggest muting the videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSfAv0F ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xttVdjn ... e=youtu.be

The top line is definitely the PS2, but I can't really make out what's going on in the rest of the screen. PS2s are cheap these days, so if you can afford it, I'd suggest getting a 2nd PS2 to see if you get the exact same results. In the mean time, you can likely bump that top line out of view by shifting the ZOOM_V_POS until it gets hidden.

[opt2not]

So hipster, it has to be that thing you said you were using. What was it again? X2vga+?

How does one connect the X2VGA+ to the XRGB-mini? I've got one of those boxes as well, but I don't use it with the XRGB-mini since it outputs VGA.
For XBOX I've only tried connecting though component, so I'm curious how hipster's set-up is?

On a non-profile related note: Does anyone know if I can use the USB port on the back of the XRGB-mini to power a AverMedia Live Gamer portable? The LGP requires being powered by USB (5v), and it would be nice to just connect it to the XRGB-mini's USB for power, but I don't know if this would be doable or if I'd end up frying my mini.

[Valandil]

Hello everybody, I was able to upload a couple of videos showing my issue I described earlier with Lunar, hope you have some minutes in your day to take a look at those. The issue is present across the top of the screen, due to YouTube compression a lot of detail is lost however it still show the issue (I think).

Please let me know what you guys think. Thank you.

P.S. I couldn't get rid of the sound of the video, sorry for the background noise. Although it's not that loud I'd suggest muting the videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSfAv0F ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xttVdjn ... e=youtu.be

The top line is definitely the PS2, but I can't really make out what's going on in the rest of the screen. PS2s are cheap these days, so if you can afford it, I'd suggest getting a 2nd PS2 to see if you get the exact same results. In the mean time, you can likely bump that top line out of view by shifting the ZOOM_V_POS until it gets hidden.

Thanks man, do you also see the stuttering happening in the first inch or so from the top? Other than that first inch the rest of the picture below shows/scrolls with no problems. What could be causing that? I'll try to borrow a PS2 from a friend and try it before purchasing one, I'd prefer using that money to get a PS1 to play it in original hardware, if the PS2 is the problem I believe it's safe to assume that the problem won't be present with another console right? (fingers crossed). What really worries me is that my Framemeister is not scaling correctly, from your experience do you think this is out of the question?

[FBX]

Hello everybody, I was able to upload a couple of videos showing my issue I described earlier with Lunar, hope you have some minutes in your day to take a look at those. The issue is present across the top of the screen, due to YouTube compression a lot of detail is lost however it still show the issue (I think).

Please let me know what you guys think. Thank you.

P.S. I couldn't get rid of the sound of the video, sorry for the background noise. Although it's not that loud I'd suggest muting the videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSfAv0F ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xttVdjn ... e=youtu.be

The top line is definitely the PS2, but I can't really make out what's going on in the rest of the screen. PS2s are cheap these days, so if you can afford it, I'd suggest getting a 2nd PS2 to see if you get the exact same results. In the mean time, you can likely bump that top line out of view by shifting the ZOOM_V_POS until it gets hidden.

Thanks man, do you also see the stuttering happening in the first inch or so from the top? Other than that first inch the rest of the picture below shows/scrolls with no problems. What could be causing that? I'll try to borrow a PS2 from a friend and try it before purchasing one, I'd prefer using that money to get a PS1 to play it in original hardware, if the PS2 is the problem I believe it's safe to assume that the problem won't be present with another console right? (fingers crossed). What really worries me is that my Framemeister is not scaling correctly, from your experience do you think this is out of the question?

Lets wait and see what kind of results you get from the 2nd PS2. It may very well be your display or the Framemeister if you get the same results. If you do get the same results, try a different display to rule the display out. Then it will be down to either cabling or the Framemeister if a 2nd display shows the same behavior on a 2nd PS2.

[austin532]

Valandil, It's possible that your model PS2 is causing that problem. Are you using the slim or the original? The slim's supposedly have more problems with PS1 games.

It's also very possible that shimmering effect is always there but you would never see it on a CRT as it would have been cut off. That also explains why you can't see it on PS3. Most people don't know this but the PS3 cuts off a little bit of the top, bottom, and sides when playing PS1 games on it.

[Shuco13]

Also of important note is that I now do all my profiling via DVI 1920x1080 mode. This is because of the already mentioned issue of HDMI 1080p mode incorrectly converting colors in RGB mode. I recommend everyone that is using 1080p profiles make the switch to 1080p DVI. This will get rid of overblown greens and dulled reds for example.

FBX, I respect you for your hard work on profiles but I would strictly recommend against using DVI instead of HDMI for the following reasons:

1. Scanlines are thinner in DVI mode (like in your 5x profiles) in comparison to HDMI.
2. On DVI the input signal gets completely ignored and converted to an uniform output. Especially with component sources this is very hard to compensate.
3. Greens in HDMI mode are adjustable using A/D-, RGB- and BRIGHTNESS settings.

I can only repeat that the following preset gave me the least trouble for getting everything right on RGB and component:
HDMI
MOVIE/PICTURE
RGB: AUTO
RGB RANGE: FULL
DEEP COLOR: OFF
A/D: MANUAL

Edit: Then restart the mini to prevent it being in failsafe mode.

1. Scanlines appeared identical on my end in DVI mode. In BOTH modes, scanlines are thinner on 5x scale profiles.

No they're not. Try setting scanlines to 40/86 (the recommended value earlier in this thread, not by me tbh.) and switch between the modes using 240p input. Scanlines in DVI mode are noticably thinner in both 4X and 5x modes whereas they are wider and less sharp in HDMI mode. Don't make me take comparisonshots.

2. What do you mean by "converted to an uniform output"?

Probably

Spoiler

RGB full

. But since I'm not sure and want to avoid misunderstandings I try to avoid this statement.

3. As I said before, A/D should never be adjusted beyond a few points since it crushes colors together. RGB values don't solve the problem either because reducing green or any other color makes true white fall to a lopsided white that favors the other two colors. Lastly, brightness should be left at 25 or lower. Any brighter, and you start to see a dark grey background instead of pure black.

Well as said before. That is your opinion based on what you think. Mine is based on what I measured.

As for your settings, I've tried every combination thereof and it does NOTHING to prevent the incorrect RGB coloring. The ONLY other way to trick the Framemeister into outputting correct colors in HDMI mode is to turn the console and display on before turning on the Framemeister. That forces it into YPbPr conversion which shows correct colors.

Neither did I claim to fix anything nor perfection. I just said my settings, since they're not saved by profiles, give me the least trouble for all of my inputs and are a good base for doing all the other adjustments which are NECESSARY.

[TheShadowRunner]

FBX, just wondering how you deal with audio when you set the Mini to output DVI?

[FBX]

FBX, just wondering how you deal with audio when you set the Mini to output DVI?

Audio plays fine on my end. Not sure what you mean.

[FBX]

Well as said before. That is your opinion based on what you think. Mine is based on what I measured.

Nope. I'm not the only one to actually spot the colors being crushed when increasing A/D beyond a certain threshold. You can get as personal as you like about it, but that's not going to change the fact that it does happen.

[Valandil]

Lets wait and see what kind of results you get from the 2nd PS2. It may very well be your display or the Framemeister if you get the same results. If you do get the same results, try a different display to rule the display out. Then it will be down to either cabling or the Framemeister if a 2nd display shows the same behavior on a 2nd PS2.

Valandil, It's possible that your model PS2 is causing that problem. Are you using the slim or the original? The slim's supposedly have more problems with PS1 games.

It's also very possible that shimmering effect is always there but you would never see it on a CRT as it would have been cut off. That also explains why you can't see it on PS3. Most people don't know this but the PS3 cuts off a little bit of the top, bottom, and sides when playing PS1 games on it.

Thank you, I do appreciate you looking into this, I'm currently using a PS2 fat that I bought from second hand so it could be the PS2 as I'm not sure what treatment received in the past. It could also be what you describe austin532; I will try with a 2nd PS2 and will report back my findings. Hopefully it's just the console and not my Framemeister. Cheers!

[bacardi]

FBX, just wondering how you deal with audio when you set the Mini to output DVI?

Audio plays fine on my end. Not sure what you mean.

I think he means that DVI doesn't carry audio?

[TheShadowRunner]

Audio plays fine on my end. Not sure what you mean.

I think he means that DVI doesn't carry audio?

Yes that's what I meant. It turns out the Mini outputs audio via HDMI cable even when outputting in DVI mode.
Edit: and on my setup, the green color is absolutely identical in DVI versus HDMI, I really think that depends on the display, not on the Mini..

[hipstir]

Okay Just checked my 4:3 XBox 480p in 1080p on both DVI and HDMI mode. Here are the results:

1. AR is in fact set to 4:3 as saved by the profiles.

2. Scanlines are PERFECT in both modes.

3. Scanlines look identical in both modes.

So hipster, it has to be that thing you said you were using. What was it again? X2vga+?

Edit: Looked up the device, and yeah, I do not support that in my profiles. Mine are meant for Component directly into the Framemeister, and HDMI from the Framemeister directly to an HDTV or HD capture device.

Edit 2: My best guess is the X2VGA+ cannot handle a V_Width of 37. The Widescreen profiles use a V_Width of 33, which may be within range of the X2VGA+ as to why those profiles still look correct on it. To test this theory, I'm going to see if I can jive a uniform 4:3 scanline setting below V_Width of 32 since 32 - 36 don't work.

Edit 3: PM sent to hipster. New test profile uses V_Width default of 32, and uses Zoom_Size of 99 to compensate. Crossing fingers.

Dark scanlines still exist every 50 pixels with the test profile.

I will remove the transcoder and test directly with component and let you know if they go away with both versions you have created thus far.

I do remember using the xbox profiles with the Wii had the same issue and the Wii is directly connected to XRGB via component. Let me try the Wii with this test profile and see if it goes away.

Edit 1:
Test profile for 4x3 is perfect on the wii and your newly released widescreen profile is still perfect for both xbox and wii. I will retest xbox with component input later tonight.

I think you nailed it, xrgb does not handle 480p rgbs properly when it comes to scanlines. Makes me wonder why they did not implement scanlines as an overlay effect regardless of input resolution...

[FBX]

Audio plays fine on my end. Not sure what you mean.

I think he means that DVI doesn't carry audio?

Yes that's what I meant. It turns out the Mini outputs audio via HDMI cable even when outputting in DVI mode.
Edit: and on my setup, the green color is absolutely identical in DVI versus HDMI, I really think that depends on the display, not on the Mini..

Did you try the SMW title screen test? Hard to believe it would be a display issue and not the Framemeister, especially since I was 'late to the ball game' on encountering this issue after several others have complained about it (wish they would chime in so it doesn't look like I'm the only one pointing this out). Here's a direct capture comparison of HDMI colors versus DVI colors (and yes, those colors on the HDMI version are not supposed to be that way):

Spoiler

Spoiler

Notice the greens on the shrubs are crushed into two shades on HDMI, while they remain three intact shades in DVI.

[TheShadowRunner]

Did you try the SMW title screen test? Hard to believe it would be a display issue and not the Framemeister, especially since I was 'late to the ball game' on encountering this issue after several others have complained about it (wish they would chime in so it doesn't look like I'm the only one pointing this out).

Sure, to be honest it's the only thing I tried, the mario intro screen where title and bushes can be seen.

Here's a direct capture comparison of HDMI colors versus DVI colors (and yes, those colors on the HDMI version are not supposed to be that way):

No shit they aren't ^^;
This looks aweful, I'm not getting that at all. My HDMI out looks like your DVI.
I'm using all default Mini settings (except H_SCALER | V_SCALER) and 720p@60 output (not your profile as I like my scanlines the way they look with 720p output).
I'm well aware you're not the only one bringing this up, no worries ^^;

Notice the greens on the shrubs are crushed into two shades on HDMI, while they remain three intact shades in DVI.

Yep, i'm getting 3 shades in HDMI, and with both RGB limited or RGB full. Ofc i'm not in failsafe mode, either.

[Thomago]

@FBX: Also your screenshots show that you *really* need to ramp up your A/D-LEVEL. The DVI one is obviously lacking in contrast.

[hipstir]

FBX,

I have rewired my xbox to use the component input and everything looks perfect with the Feb. 03, 2016 profiles for both the wii and xbox using both widescreen and 4x3 profiles.

Sorry for the bad results but we did learn something... the XRGB Mini does not like 4x3 RGBS with scanlines, strange because the Dreamcast/Toro with scanline enabled via your DC specific profile looks correct.

I have 3 questions I'm hoping you could answer...

1. Scanline profiles... Is the gamma raised when compared to non-scanline profiles?
2. Interlaced profiles... Is it just a matter of switching from Picture to Standard?
3. Widescreen profiles... Is it just a matter of switching from 4x3 to Widescreen or do you manipulate the zoom properties as well?

Since the XRGB only supports 20 profiles on disk, I was wondering if some of the profiles could be consolidated by just a press of button via the remote?

Lastly, Thank You for your help and your awesome profiles!!!

PS.
The x2vga+ is a transcoder specifically made for the xbox. It converts a component signal to vga with h/v or sync for 480p, 720p and 1080i

[austin532]

FBX,

I have rewired my xbox to use the component input and everything looks perfect with the Feb. 03, 2016 profiles for both the wii and xbox using both widescreen and 4x3 profiles.

Is there are Wii profile now? I haven't noticed.

[hipstir]

FBX,

I have rewired my xbox to use the component input and everything looks perfect with the Feb. 03, 2016 profiles for both the wii and xbox using both widescreen and 4x3 profiles.

Is there are Wii profile now? I haven't noticed.

No, I have been using the xbox profiles for wii. I figured they both put out a 480p component signal.

[austin532]

I had the same idea but with the Gamecube 480P profile. I assume the settings should be the same in 4:3 mode but I wouldn't be surprised if they were slightly different. 16:9 is a no go with both the Gamecube Wide and Xbox Wide profiles. No big deal as I think the Wii looks much better in 4:3 anyway. Most games run fine with the exception of a few like New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Donkey Kong Country Returns. FBX does not have a Wii so that's why there are no Wii profiles

[RGB32E]

Did you try the SMW title screen test? Hard to believe it would be a display issue and not the Framemeister, especially since I was 'late to the ball game' on encountering this issue after several others have complained about it (wish they would chime in so it doesn't look like I'm the only one pointing this out). Here's a direct capture comparison of HDMI colors versus DVI colors (and yes, those colors on the HDMI version are not supposed to be that way)

I demonstrated that HDMI mode output doesn't crush green many posts back on the right displays.



Depending upon the display or capture device, YMMV. Looks like FBX is making generalizations for his own particular scenarios.

[Edits to be nice]

And no FBX, you weren't 'late to the ball game', since you started posting on this thread when this subject had been discussed. This is why your post was funny.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=7110

[TheShadowRunner]

RGB32E, your animosity towards FBX is annoying. It seems you just enjoy proving him wrong, wtf?

[austin532]

^This