So, lolis, moes and others in shmups

[Squire Grooktook]

CAVE killed shmups. With their cheap looking, not much cell invested, cheap 2000s CGI anime style girls with as low as much possible NOT HAND DRAWN CGI style female chars that don't do anything to the f story. Touhou continued this.

Now U have f underage low quality anime CGI girls for shump characters everywhere. GO SUPPORT CAVE ON STEAM or Touhou or whatever to get more of that shit. F morons.

I hope next shmup that gets released got only 1 playable char that is 5 years old girl in her underwear.

HAVE FUN.


*on topic
I dont have a problem with Raiden's ship. Or by whom he is piloted. I play the game for other reasons, not to look at pilots underwear or something else (if he or she is not wearing it).

Almost RegalSin quality post.

[trap15]

Yeah that's pretty impressive.

[Drake]

I concur with Sakurei that it's really odd that, mostly here and related circles, many people bemoaning the rise of moe-appeal in recent STGs end up finger-pointing at the Touhou series as though it's an example or even a significant contributing factor to this. It's so affected by some availability bias where there's this perception that Touhou has invaded their hobby and filled it with so many fans of the characters that it must be that devs feel like they need to cater to this specific audience to get sales, rather than looking at the actual trends of popularity in Japan and thinking about why developers make these decisions to shove moe-appeal and/or sexualization onto literally everything. This has been happening for years with anime, VNs, games of various genres, and all sorts of things; not just your chosen niche hobby. Do people actually think that STG devs look at Touhou's popularity as an example and then think they have to copy it? Because that's wrong and a terrible idea for several reasons. If anything I see western devs trying to mimic Touhou due to these misconceptions (mainly due to distorted perceptions of Touhou's presence among STGs), and with leagues of pseudo-copycats that get absolutely nowhere I think it should be clear that this mimicry just doesn't work very well.

Plus, like Ed said, the degree of importance people seem to put on this issue when compared to Japan is actually kind of funny. It's the same sort of thing where people's perceptions are just totally out of whack with the majority of audiences, whether it's mostly cultural or personal views or whatever. I sympathize with people not wanting to play some games in public because of the characters and whatnot, since that really is a cultural clash, but what examples are there really of playing "warning flag" STGs in public like this? Also, is it not acceptable to just shrug it off as "ha ha those crazy japanese sure do make some weird shit", like the vast majority of people who saw it would comment? It's almost as if by saying that you're suggesting that STGs have no impressive merits on their own and so the only reason anyone would be playing them is because of moe-factor.

Still, i can't understand HOW, just HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW people gone so CRAZY about Touhou girls? Man, you dont even see them as it is during gameplay, it's just DECORATION of game interface before gameplay, LOL. And yet they generated such fanbase.

To give you an actual answer, when the series first boomed it was a combination of interesting character design, being quality games, and an odd doujin-specific snowball effect. EoSD was advertised late 2002 on Watanabe Seisakusho's website (i.e. French Bread, think Melty Blood), which was a big deal spotlight and helped spur a lot of interest within the doujin scene. PCB's full version is where it exploded. People were really into it even before Touhou derivative material was really a thing, just by the series' merits (especially for being a doujin project). Once Touhou-specific doujinshi started popping up and attracting even more attention it just became bigger. As for what attracts people to Touhou's characters specifically... it's complicated.

[Shepardus]

If anything, shmup devs such as CAVE didn't learn enough from Touhou. All of ZUN's characters are notably unsexualized; the most sexualized they get in any official work are in the fighting games such as Hopeless Masquerade (Mononobe no Futo's skirt is noticeably shorter than it is in Ten Desires), which were done in collaboration with Tasofro, and even those are pretty tame. The proliferation of Touhou porn just goes to show that you don't need to sexualize your characters to make them popular, it actually happens the other way around.

Touhou's cast isn't sexualized, it's just Improbably Female, and when I play Touhou I even forget that they're female. When I see the characters I see them as Marisa, Remilia, and Sakuya before I see them as "impossibly cute witch," "loli vampire with delicious flat chest," and "maid with mile-long legs." Not that they aren't those too, but the point is that ZUN's done a commendable job of creating immediately recognizable characters (as opposed to tropes wrapped in a name, portrait, and blood type), establishing personalities for them, and placing them in a coherent world. All this was done with just the right amount of openness such that fans could run wild with it, but with enough fleshed out to give fans a solid base to work with. I would even venture to say ZUN's artstyle is a benefit in this regard, as it's good enough to not repulse players (zombie Reimu in MoF notwithstanding) and convey the defining traits of his characters without being distractingly attractive - with ZUN's art the focus remains on the characters themselves rather than on the character art, because frankly the character art isn't much to gush over.

And it's not just character art, backstory, and dialogue (lol Touhou dialogue) that ZUN uses to establish Touhou characters. Just as important, arguably even more important, is the way the characters give each boss fight a unique personality through their music and spell cards, building their character through gameplay - the characters aren't just eye candy, they're actually important to the game. This is undoubtedly helped by the amount of care ZUN puts into creating unique music for each character and taking the time to design creative and pretty spellcard attacks around each character's concept and theme, and even naming them too (a novel idea before Touhou became popular). The result is clear, given how strongly the fanbase has latched onto Touhou's music and associated the songs with each character, and how memorable and talked-about the boss fights and even specific spell cards within these boss fights are, compared to all but the most infamous patterns from CAVE.

Touhou managed to stay alive and even grow in popularity through its virtues even as other shmups and shmup devs dropped off the face of the earth. Sure, I would say nowadays there's too many directly Touhou and CAVE-inspired danmaku shmups relative to other shmups, but if Touhou didn't exist I don't think other shmups would have risen in its place. Touhou didn't kill shmups; if anything, it's one of the primary forces keeping them alive.

tl;dr: I'm perfectly fine with lolis as long as you're not shoving them where they obviously don't belong. Make them belong and give them some distinctive character while you're at it (not just what they say, but what they do), and I have nothing to complain about.

[Lyv]

I really don't care about it, when it's limited to sprites and the occasional silly ending/dialogue. Games like Gunbird 2 or Touhou did it right, imo. It adds a fun aspect without being invasive in any way.

Stuff like voice acting is another problem, since it makes this side of the game harder to overlook. I found that it's also somewhat a problem when trying to show shmups to people who aren't into it. Showing a video of a Touhou game, with at most rushed-through text dialogues and badly-drawn characters, wouldn't detract most people from the game solely due to the art direction. I'm worried showing a video of SDOJ would make things somewhat weird to explain, weirder than Muchi Muchi Pork for example (where you can easily discard it thanks to the silliness).

tl;dr : I can get over it, but I wish it were only included for laughs.

[Skykid]

This is not a discussion worth having.

A discussion worth having would be what type of people lolis and moes appeal to, what social factors have contributed to the increase of said people, how do these interests affect gender relations and procreation, are individuals aroused by lolis equally aroused by adults, and when is someone going to get on with it and nuke the fucking planet.

We can start with why does Japan sell more adult diapers than those for babies.

[Lobinden]

*snip*

Bloody well said. I'm not saying that anyone here has to like Touhou or anything, but anyone who says that the Touhou games themselves (the main bullet hell games anyway) have any fanservice have clearly not actually played the games and are willingly ignorant.

Wall of text that claims touhou has nothing to do with anything then goes on to contradict and say well it may have something to do with it but i'm an emotionally underveloped virgin who wanks to lolis thus i must defend my "interest" at all costs

The thing is Sakurei when you have shit like this "Talking shit about lolis is forbidden and results in an immediate ban." on your twitch it makes it clear where your bias lies and are probably a pedo. Can you post a picture of yourself please i just want to see if you match the stereotype i have visualized.

It's like I'm really on reddit!

[Bananamatic]

hentai and anime tits are easier to explain than "i paid $60 for this old ass 2d game that's 30 minutes long and I play it over and over"

speaking from experience, not a single funny look at dfk when i told a dude "yeah it's japanese lol" but when i told him how much i paid for it he just straight up laughed at me

[Durandal]

I don't mind playing as a little girl that much, but it starts getting annoying once said little girls open their mouths.
I'm trying to weave through a pattern of thousand bullets and you start screaming high-pitched exposition in my ears while also talking over the amazing music. I don't mind the occasional taunt or POWAH APPU, but let me focus, damnit.
Another thing that irks me is moe just for the sake of otaku pandering. Even worse is when the moe becomes prevalent in more 'serious' settings, the fact remains that moe is just conflicting in a serious war setting. You can't be kawaii and slaughter all your comrades at the same time. And thanks to the large amount of NEETs in Japan who fawn over everything slightly moe, we're now saddled with a higher percentage of generic moeblobs instead of having a proper varied cast of characters. I have always favoured playing as badasses of either gender in war machines of destruction and terror, but I'm no fan of blatant pandering in any way.

[Lobinden]

We can start with why does Japan sell more adult diapers than those for babies.

It's because the Japanese are sophisticated people of taste.

In seriousness, I'm guessing the rise of "moe culture" in Japan is probably a natural juxtaposition of their otherwise very strict and hypercompetitive culture, but as you can tell I'm not nearly knowledgeable or equipped enough to talk about this in any length or detial.

[Bananamatic]

I don't mind playing as a little girl that much, but it starts getting annoying once said little girls open their mouths.
I'm trying to weave through a pattern of thousand bullets and you start screaming high-pitched exposition in my ears while also talking over the amazing music. I don't mind the occasional taunt or POWAH APPU, but let me focus, damnit.

sound options->voice->set to 0

[qmish]

hentai and anime tits are easier to explain than "i paid $60 for this old ass 2d game that's 30 minutes long and I play it over and over"

speaking from experience, not a single funny look at dfk when i told a dude "yeah it's japanese lol" but when i told him how much i paid for it he just straight up laughed at me

Pretending that you are some kind of otaku is more safe nowodays that admiring that you love shmups and openly saying how great they are? (shmups, not lolis)

[NTSC-J]

A discussion worth having would be what type of people lolis and moes appeal to, what social factors have contributed to the increase of said people, how do these interests affect gender relations and procreation, are individuals aroused by lolis equally aroused by adults, and when is someone going to get on with it and nuke the fucking planet.

A generation of man-children who don't know their overworked dads and are overly attached to their moms, both afraid to let go and at the same time mortified of being swallowed back into their vaginas and castrated which comes out in an over-idealization of the female where they can't be flawed and human and have all the upsetting aspects of the human body like creating waste and menstruating so they must be destroyed or shamed and humiliated which means either dysfunctional relationships or an avoidance of them altogether and an embrace of unrealistic images like in anime, but these are ultimately ungratifying and lead to empty lives of self-loathing and despair and derivative RPGs.

We can start with why does Japan sell more adult diapers than those for babies.

Lots of old people.

[Bananamatic]

Pretending that you are some kind of otaku is more safe nowodays that admiring that you love shmups and openly saying how great they are? (shmups, not lolis)

considering how popular anime is and how popular shmups are
if you don't act like a retard, yes

[juonryu2nd]

I'd play a Gochiusa shmup

[Lobinden]

hentai and anime tits are easier to explain than "i paid $60 for this old ass 2d game that's 30 minutes long and I play it over and over"

speaking from experience, not a single funny look at dfk when i told a dude "yeah it's japanese lol" but when i told him how much i paid for it he just straight up laughed at me

Pretending that you are some kind of otaku is more safe nowodays that admiring that you love shmups and openly saying how great they are? (shmups, not lolis)

In the age of Open-world narrative adventure sandbox games, it probably is for most people, take that as you will.

[qmish]

Oh, well. That destroys my "why don't you show actual gameplay footage?" answer to "thanks to lolis people don't consider STGs worthy".

It's opposite... Fan service is only way for some to sell them to people (both financially and "i'm not buying this" context).

[Lobinden]

Oh, well. That destroys my "why don't you show actual gameplay footage?" answer to "thanks to lolis people don't consider STGs worthy".

It's opposite... Fan service is only way for some to sell them to people (both financially and "i'm not buying this" context).

At the same time, I think it's still possible for a non-fanservicey shmup to be at least relatively successful (for example, Crimzon Clover world ignition on steam). It just requires a lot of dedication and word-of-mouth from the community, which is funnily enough how I rediscovered this great genre.

[Strikers1945guy]

Reading this whole thread again this morning is giving me some better idea of where the touhou dudes are coming from. I will say I have enjoyed the odd touhou. I just can't help play one for the first time without the anticipation of amazing bullet patterns and shit everything else.

Still don't like lolis but hey if you do or whatever then cool.

The only time you ever even see the girls in DOJ is the character section screen no? Even in the ending I'm somewhat sure they are absent?

[qmish]

The only time you ever even see the girls in DOJ is the character section screen no? Even in the ending I'm somewhat sure they are absent?

When you get stage results every time there is some interesting pic with them. Like they having head laying down separate from body. Neat stuff.

[Skykid]

A discussion worth having would be what type of people lolis and moes appeal to, what social factors have contributed to the increase of said people, how do these interests affect gender relations and procreation, are individuals aroused by lolis equally aroused by adults, and when is someone going to get on with it and nuke the fucking planet.

A generation of man-children who don't know their overworked dads and are overly attached to their moms, both afraid to let go and at the same time mortified of being swallowed back into their vaginas and castrated which comes out in an over-idealization of the female where they can't be flawed and human and have all the upsetting aspects of the human body like creating waste and menstruating so they must be destroyed or shamed and humiliated which means either dysfunctional relationships or an avoidance of them altogether and an embrace of unrealistic images like in anime, but these are ultimately ungratifying and lead to empty lives of self-loathing and despair and derivative RPGs.

Now we have a discussion.

We can start with why does Japan sell more adult diapers than those for babies.

Lots of old people.

Due to lowering birth rates because all the boyz are 2 buzy loli fappin

[Strikers1945guy]

The only time you ever even see the girls in DOJ is the character section screen no? Even in the ending I'm somewhat sure they are absent?

When you get stage results every time there is some interesting pic with them. Like they having head laying down separate from body. Neat stuff.

Ahh yes. God its been too long since I've played DOJ, guess you can tell. Even still DOJ does it pretty cool. I seem to remember one screen with maybe EXY and she has I swear 5 fingers or some random thing. Not 4 fingers and a thumb it's like legit 5 fingers. Let me see if I can find a pic

[copy-paster]

I seem to remember one screen with maybe EXY and she has I swear 5 fingers or some random thing

Spoiler

[Strikers1945guy]

I seem to remember one screen with maybe EXY and she has I swear 5 fingers or some random thing

Spoiler

No way that's a thumb

[Captain]

I just came here to say that I'm perfectly okay with sexy ladies in my shmups.

...But lolis drive me insane, especially if they're in an otherwise-good game.

[Frenetic]

Though it was a lot of hard work, I also had a lot of fun helping out organize the gaming hall at Touhou Con. Lunatic Theater was so awesome to witness and the panels were amazing, thanks to Touhou players that came out to the convention to perform and do commentary.

At the "How to Play Touhou" panel we had some enthusiastic girls come up and play. I'm all for having more females playing shmups, as an older otaku I've had the pleasure to see how much they have enriched fandom.

I've been reading some otaku studies and I think this Saito Tamaki's book (now translated into English) _Beautiful Fighting Girl_ can help us frame this discussion. Here's a review/summary of the book, I highly recommend it. http://www.english.ufl.edu/imagetext/ar ... 2/hemmann/

Patrick Galbraith has a nice and succinct article on the concept of Moe: http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/artic ... Bryce.html

Viva La Vivian Girls,
F

[Hagane]

One thing is for sure, if Japan wants to get relevant again in the rest of the world and not just among a niche of outcasts at their home country they would do well in getting back to the aesthetics that made them interesting in the first place.

It's hard to get people interested in these games because, no matter how cool and well designed they are, most will think they are shit for virgins / weirdos to fap to. Something similar happened to fighting games; everything started to look like your random otaku pandering anime and of course they remained a Japanese niche. It's even worse in that genre because it's 100% social, so getting people to play something like Arcana Heart is harder than a Futari Ultra NMNB.

It's tough when 90% of Western stuff is about bald brown and gray hypermuscular marines and 90% of what comes out of Japan is terribly drawn moe otaku crap.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

I recall a time when a man could play a Cave game in public.
You just don't openly pilot a loli in public in the west.

Remember Taito's Gun Frontier?
Your ship was a damn pistol with wings.

[Lobinden]

One thing is for sure, if Japan wants to get relevant again in the rest of the world and not just among a niche of outcasts at their home country they would do well in getting back to the aesthetics that made them interesting in the first place.

It's hard to get people interested in these games because, no matter how cool and well designed they are, most will think they are shit for virgins / weirdos to fap to. Something similar happened to fighting games; everything started to look like your random otaku pandering anime and of course they remained a Japanese niche. It's even worse in that genre because it's 100% social, so getting people to play something like Arcana Heart is harder than a Futari Ultra NMNB.

It's tough when 90% of Western stuff is about bald brown and gray hypermuscular marines and 90% of what comes out of Japan is terribly drawn moe otaku crap.

Well I think this is a big reason why the Souls series was so successful. It's an example of cultural cross-pollination between the U.S and Japan (since it is basically western fantasy through the perspective of a Japanese guy who used to have nightmares from reading western fantasy books as a kid, with a bit of Berserk-inspired imagery thrown in for good measure) which is somewhat rare to see nowadays, which made the Souls setting feel uniquely fresh for a lot of people.

Personally I think there is enough room in the anime and gaming industries for both westernised stuff and "moeshit", and I am open to both.

[HenAi]

are individuals aroused by lolis equally aroused by adults

Considering plenty of hentai magazines have loli content mixed in, the answer is that at least a lot of them do. Otherwise that content would be limited to magazines focusing entirely on it. The situation with visual novels is similar. That's a list of VNs featuring at least one loli, but not only lolis; and VNs with only lolis, respectively.

Edit: Removed the links, just look up vndb and search for loli heroine/all loli heroines using the tag browser if you feel like checking yourself.