So, lolis, moes and others in shmups

qmish · Post by **qmish** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:35 pm

Do you love them? Do you hate them? Do you ignore them? Whom would you like to see instead?

Me personally feels unfullfilled because they either put complete lolis/moes with their flat body and childish nature OR oversexualized ladies with curvy body and big breasts/asses. I would like to see more characters that fall in my beauty ideals, which are slim elegant ladies with small but not flat..details, and not younger than midteens.

As for MALES, it's even more complicated. They are either overpowered Rambos or some stylish gay-looking thin boys.

Now, about THEIR ROLE in these games. They can appear in opening/ending cutscenes, in ship/pilot choose menu etc. How much is too much? What about Saidaioujou where they SKYPing with you during gameplay? is that annoying?

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Still, i can't understand HOW, just HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW people gone so CRAZY about Touhou girls? Man, you dont even see them as it is during gameplay, it's just DECORATION of game interface before gameplay, LOL. And yet they generated such fanbase.

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And do you like Ibara and it's bosses?

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:49 pm

Well, that escalated quickly.

I tried out a bit of that MUSHA sequel, and the Dracue game Gunhound EX, and the constant chattering about nothing at all really drives me up the wall.

AxelMill · Post by **AxelMill** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:52 pm

qmish wrote:Do you love them? Do you hate them? Do you ignore them? Whom would you like to see instead?

Me personally feels unfullfilled because they either put complete lolis/moes with their flat body and childish nature OR oversexualized ladies with curvy body and big breasts/asses. I would like to see more characters that fall in my beauty ideals, which are slim elegant ladies with small but not flat..details, and not younger than midteens.

As for MALES, it's even more complicated. They are either overpowered Rambos or some stylish gay-looking thin boys.

Now, about THEIR ROLE in these games. They can appear in opening/ending cutscenes, in ship/pilot choose menu etc. How much is too much? What about Saidaioujou where they SKYPing with you during gameplay? is that annoying?

__________________________________________________
Still, i can't understand HOW, just HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW people gone so CRAZY about Touhou girls? Man, you dont even see them as it is during gameplay, it's just DECORATION of game interface before gameplay, LOL. And yet they generated such fanbase.

__________________________________________________

And do you like Ibara and it's bosses?

Personally I despise lolis' usual personality. I'm tired of "onii-chan"s, tsunderes, childish little girls with annoying voices. It also makes it much more difficult for me to play games "in public", so to speak, as having lolis, sexualized or not, covering half the screen isn't exactly what people want/expect me to play.

Yes, beautiful, not half-naked women are pretty much gone in Japanese games/animes, replaced by the aforementioned lolis, oppais and oppai lolis. It's sad, really.

______
Not only that, but Touhou's in-game character portraits (save for the fighting games IIRC) aren't exactly well made. Like, at all. Its gigantic fanbase fixed that a bit, though.

Mimeslayer · Post by **Mimeslayer** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:56 pm

Personally I'm completely indifferent to them (loli/moe/etc in shooters). Unless it gets into really creepy territory (and even Deathsmiles isn't that extreme) I can easily tune it out and focus on the game itself. I mean 99% of the time the characters are tiny 2D sprites that you don't even look at because a lot of games require you to look higher/farther on the screen so that you can anticipate enemy attacks better. Honestly I feel people make a bigger deal out of it than needed.

How people got so into the moe/loli craze, though, has a lot to do with culture I'm sure. Remember most of these games are made by Japanese developers for a primarily Japanese audience. I'm sure it's just a cultural thing to put cartoon characters into their games to boost sales, much like how every product/place/whatever seems to have a mascot.

Touhou in particular is a broader phenomenon than just "people liking girls" though. A lot of the fans do play the games, even if it is just on Easy/Normal, because they enjoy the games. Each one plays differently (some extremely so) so people can usually find one they enjoy. I mean you make it sound like people play the games for the girls and not the game itself, when there are numerous players who are attempting and succeeding at Lunatic No Miss No Bombs to this day. I highly doubt the "girls" are the reason for their continued replays.

There are also fans who love to tell stories with the large cast (meaning you're bound to find somebody you like) and the setting which is just vague enough to let fans go wild with their imagination. Also a sizable chunk of the fanbase is interested in other things like the music.

Not saying that there are not a large amount of people obsessed with the girls themselves, but when you have a fanbase that large the population numbers of each segment are bound to feel crazy.

qmish · Post by **qmish** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:06 pm

I mean 99% of the time the characters are tiny 2D sprites that you don't even look at because a lot of games require you to look higher/farther on the screen so that you can anticipate enemy attacks better.

Yes, that was questioning me for a while.

Of course, i dont say that all Touhou fans don't play Touhou, that would be crazy. I'm referring for large crowd who post at 2ch/4chan etc. That "touhou movement" that goes far away from actual danmaku so now we have tons of music albums labeled as touhou, Castlevania clones and fighting games, also "because of touhou" etc.

edit:

regarding CAVE input, i'm ok with DOJ androids which are fitting dark horror cyberpunk vibe a bit (not sure about their boss variations on DFK though) and Progear, maybe.

trap15 · Post by **trap15** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:25 pm

Fuck little girls.

qmish · Post by **qmish** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:38 pm

with annoying voices

Speaking of voice actresses, i wonder if there is a game with a voice actress with a voice talent similar to Queen of japanese blues, Maki Asakawa. Is it impossible for games to have smth like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKTeS_ypHYw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rf1UmZMRwI

Lobinden · Post by **Lobinden** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:39 pm

I'm not a fan but I can get past it provided the gameplay is good enough, you shouldn't primarily judge games based on superficial features.

Spoiler

And yes, I would also like to see more sexy mature ladies again

AxelMill · Post by **AxelMill** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:40 pm

Mimeslayer wrote:Touhou in particular is a broader phenomenon than just "people liking girls" though. A lot of the fans do play the games, even if it is just on Easy/Normal, because they enjoy the games. Each one plays differently (some extremely so) so people can usually find one they enjoy.

Yes, but Cave games also are different one another, and can potentially appeal to a broader audience thanks to its huge variety of themes, unlike Touhou's same-y "maidens fighting demons" or whatever.

Spoiler

Let's not turn this into yet another Touhou topic, as we all know what happened last times.

As for DoDonPachi, quoting myself:

This egocentric dude wrote:It's weird how the (Do)DonPachi saga went from "kill your own comrades" to "destroy teen Transformers" to "BARRIER! HEIKI DA MON~" or whatever that loli bee says, in the span of a few years

trap15 wrote: Fuck little girls.

This, right here, deserves to be in someone's signature.

Sakurei · Post by **Sakurei** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:48 pm

trap15 wrote:Fuck little girls.

The only correct answer.

Ikazu-san · Post by **Ikazu-san** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:03 pm

I prefer if there's none of that moe bullshit ingame.
Just because I can imagine cute girls that don't fall under popular archetypes go pilot airplanes.

Hagane · Post by **Hagane** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:05 pm

AxelMill wrote:Yes, but Cave games also are different one another, and can potentially appeal to a broader audience thanks to its huge variety of themes, unlike Touhou's same-y "maidens fighting demons" or whatever.

They are also different in that they actually sexualize underage girls, unlike Touhou.

I really dislike overly cutesy moe stuff, particularly when there's voice acting. I have no problem with fanservice as long as it's not omnipresent and there's variety in the available characters. Psikyo did fanservice in STGs much better than Cave.

Bananamatic · Post by **Bananamatic** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:09 pm

post you're scores

iconoclast · Post by **iconoclast** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:11 pm

I don't really care as long as the art is nicely drawn and the world has a cohesive theme. Deathsmiles 1 is excellent in this regard.

I do prefer games that have some color and personality, though. Muchi Muchi Pork's goofy theme is less tiresome to me than the grimdark world of Daioujou, for example.

Mimeslayer · Post by **Mimeslayer** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:13 pm

AxelMill wrote:
Mimeslayer wrote:Touhou in particular is a broader phenomenon than just "people liking girls" though. A lot of the fans do play the games, even if it is just on Easy/Normal, because they enjoy the games. Each one plays differently (some extremely so) so people can usually find one they enjoy.

Yes, but Cave games also are different one another, and can potentially appeal to a broader audience thanks to its huge variety of themes, unlike Touhou's same-y "maidens fighting demons" or whatever.

Spoiler

Let's not turn this into yet another Touhou topic, as we all know what happened last times.

The variety in CAVE games I'd argue is one of the reasons they're so popular amongst shmups fans, including *gasp* Touhou fans. Not the "Touhou is harder" people, I mean the ones who have actually tried both company's games.

Also CAVE games are spread across several franchises and settings, so it's pretty hard to get attached to any characters since they have at most 30-45 minutes of game time to get to know them, and most of that is completely unrelated to story. CAVE's largest franchise is the Donpachi series, and the setting and characters for that game are always changing. Compared to Touhou which is a consistent setting with recurring characters and other media to add to the lore (books, official comics, etc). Even the fighting games you mentioned are actually official games (made by Tasafro yes, but ZUN basically directs a lot of it). The large amount of fans and fan-made content builds on that foundation.

Also this:

I really dislike overly cutesy moe stuff, particularly when there's voice acting. I have no problem with fanservice as long as it's not omnipresent and there's variety in the available characters. Psikyo did fanservice in STGs much better than Cave.

Again, I think people put too much stock in the "loli" argument and how much it affects this genre. It's not even an argument about lolis vs. no lolis; Crimzon Clover has 0 characters or story period and it was well-enough received to get an official arcade remake and western port. Sure some games go overboard with it (SDOJ 360 Mode I remember was infamous for this) but most games barely even touch on it if at all.

Mimeslayer · Post by **Mimeslayer** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:15 pm

AxelMill wrote: Yes, but Cave games also are different one another, and can potentially appeal to a broader audience thanks to its huge variety of themes, unlike Touhou's same-y "maidens fighting demons" or whatever.
Spoiler
Let's not turn this into yet another Touhou topic, as we all know what happened last times.

The variety in CAVE games I'd argue is one of the reasons they're so popular amongst shmups fans, including *gasp* Touhou fans. Not the "Touhou is harder" people, I mean the ones who have actually tried both company's games.

Also CAVE games are spread across several franchises and settings, so it's pretty hard to get attached to any characters since they have at most 30-45 minutes of game time to get to know them, and most of that is completely unrelated to story. CAVE's largest franchise is the Donpachi series, and the setting and characters for that game are always changing. Compared to Touhou which is a consistent setting with recurring characters and other media to add to the lore (books, official comics, etc). Even the fighting games you mentioned are actually official games (made by Tasafro yes, but ZUN basically directs a lot of it). The large amount of fans and fan-made content builds on that foundation.

Also this:

I really dislike overly cutesy moe stuff, particularly when there's voice acting. I have no problem with fanservice as long as it's not omnipresent and there's variety in the available characters. Psikyo did fanservice in STGs much better than Cave.

Again, I think people put too much stock in the "loli" argument and how much it affects this genre. It's not even an argument about lolis vs. no lolis; Crimzon Clover has 0 characters or story period and it was well-enough received to get an official arcade remake and western port. Sure some games go overboard with it (SDOJ 360 Mode I remember was infamous for this) but most games barely even touch on it if at all.

Shepardus · Post by **Shepardus** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:33 pm

little girls are our future

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:35 pm

% of Japanese people who teh smupz market: 90
% of Japanese people who give a shit about the lolis: 5?
% of other peoples who worry about loli: 90
% of other peoples who actually play these games: .01?

I would like to have some fine Grecian urns in my house, but don't want anybody thinking I'm into guys

(Given percentages are naturally not meant to be accurate, or directly comparable, for rhetorical reasons.)

Cagar · Post by **Cagar** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:17 am

qmish · Post by **qmish** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:30 am

^

People connect everything to that, though, nowodays. See scandals with Fatal Frame 5 (they say 17 yo character in underwear is pedoshit. OK........... (i m not even mentioning how character is reference to idol culture problem where gravure idols have no future besides posing in bikinis for photoshoots and that's a drama for them))

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Can anyone explain why Takumi wrote that Cheri is 8 yo (well, actually they wrote smth like "8 years after resurrection")? That's WTF WHY WHAT ARGH
Is she alien or cyborg or smth?

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:31 am

Bananamatic wrote:post you're scores

Bananamatic wrote:you're scores

Bananamatic wrote:you're

:V

Regarding topic: I don't really give a damn.

KAI · Post by **KAI** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:33 am

Now we need a new trap thread.

trap15 · Post by **trap15** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:38 am

Icarus wrote::V

That's part of the meme.

Anyways, as a realpost, basically what AxelMill said. I really don't like all the pandering girls, and it makes it extremely difficult to make anyone else think they're games worth playing. Why can't they just be manly bi-planes or space ships again?...

qmish · Post by **qmish** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:40 am

it makes it extremely difficult to make anyone else think they're games worth playing

Can't you just show them actual gameplay footage?

Squire Grooktook · Post by **Squire Grooktook** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:48 am

I dislike playing as lolis about equally as I do playing as space ships/planes.

On one hand, space ships are more boring to me. On the other hand, lolis are humanoid (better) but look terrible.

I want a cool humanoid player character with badass animations dammit. Why can't there be more Guwange's and Cybattler's out there :\

Bananamatic · Post by **Bananamatic** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:56 am

Squire Grooktook wrote: I want a cool humanoid player character with badass animations dammit. Why can't there be more Guwange's and Cybattler's out there :\

play mazinger z and tekkaman blade then

Strikers1945guy · Post by **Strikers1945guy** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:00 am

Bananamatic wrote:post you're scores

Yes please post you are scores everyone

On a serious note it doesn't really bother me, as in I can look past lolis or little girl crap if the game is good, hence the Mushihimesama or Espgaluda series.

I don't mind the Ibara ladies as at least they don't all look 13 years old

The shit that pisses me off is when say the interview with one of the guys responsible for mushihimesama needs to inform the public that Reco doesn't wear panties. Really now? Just makes no sense unless you're interested that kinda crap but then that's a much bigger problem. He's not adding any back story to the fictional world or characters, he's just being a creep to appeal to... well...I guess some of the people that play the games? God I dunno.

Stuff like the final Ibara boss Mother Teresa, when done correctly still has scantily clad dress wear and the like but it's not some deathsmiles underage girls taking a bath together.

For me there's a difference, for some maybe not. If you like the stuff that's great I'm just saying I would not argue with it never appearing in an STG again and we could all go back to Sky Shark settings with biplanes and jungle themes and men smoking cigars.

trap15 · Post by **trap15** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:06 am

Strikers1945guy wrote:The shit that pisses me off is when say the interview with one of the guys responsible for mushihimesama needs to inform the public that Reco doesn't wear panties. Really now? Just makes no sense unless you're interested that kinda crap but then that's a much bigger problem. He's not adding any back story to the fictional world or characters, he's just being a creep to appeal to... well...I guess some of the people that play the games? God I dunno.

He didn't just volunteer that, the interviewer asked him.

Bananamatic · Post by **Bananamatic** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:07 am

Strikers1945guy wrote: The shit that pisses me off is when say the interview with one of the guys responsible for mushihimesama needs to inform the public that Reco doesn't wear panties. Really now? Just makes no sense unless you're interested that kinda crap but then that's a much bigger problem. He's not adding any back story to the fictional world or characters, he's just being a creep to appeal to... well...I guess some of the people that play the games? God I dunno.

play palm in futari then
by the way, abnormal palm is by the way the best character for ultra
why dont you play ultra?

qmish · Post by **qmish** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:08 am

Speaking of picture quality...

i'm ok with Senko no Ronde (can i add it to "lolis done right" list?

), it has some beautiful arts and in-game you play as mechas instead.
Acceleration of Suguri, however, with it's "Macromedia Flash/Adobe Illustrator" style anime graphics, more difficult for me to accept

taking a bath together

http://talktoyouniverse.blogspot.ru/201 ... an-by.html

shmups.system11.org

So, lolis, moes and others in shmups

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