Cave announces Deathsmiles as next Steam release!

[KAI]

scanlines on a hd game? really?

[Xyga]

Nah I think they mean it for the many non-HD modes.

[Domino]

I might pass on it since I don't have a big interest in DS. However, some of my Otaku/Semi-Pedobear friends of mine might pick it up not for the gameplay.

[StarCreator]

I'd rather the existing modes be left completely alone; messing with them goes against the spirit of an arcade-accurate release. There's no reason modes beyond what previously existed (such as Princess Tiara's campaign) can't be added though.

[Stevens]

Not what I was hoping for, one out of two isn't bad though. Fingers crossed Ketsui is the third game.

[BryanM]

You know what's damn weird?

I was pretty much the only guy, bar maybe one other, who was saying Deathsmiles wasn't up to much shortly after its release for like, years. And for all those years of saying it was lacking and mediocre in comparison to other Cave works, I didn't get much support.

Fast forward to 2015 and every mofo and his dog is suddenly in agreement.

I actually really enjoy the final stage. If only the other levels were up to that par.

Very sparse enemy density, very short, those other levels.

[clippa]

some of my Otaku/Semi-Pedobear friends of mine might pick it up not for the gameplay.

For me, it's worth going on the register for since I love everything else about the game, but what is it with the whole scantily clad, sexualised children thing?

The only explanation I've ever heard is "It's Japanese"
is there a longer explanation? It is still considered deviant behaviour to lust after kids over there, isn't it?

[Xyga]

Not really the right thread to start that debate...

[clippa]

That was the response I got on the last forum when I brought it up.
"It's Japanese" will have to do me

[Giest118]

is there a longer explanation? It is still considered deviant behaviour to lust after kids over there, isn't it?

About as deviant as being an otaku, yeah.



Unfortunately, I could never really get into Deathsmiles. So. This release feels lame to me.

[Xyga]

I think the problem with DS is that there never was a mode/formula that really 'clicked' enough for the majority in terms of challenge and gameplay.
We understand that developing an entirely new and clever mode is probably a big 'nope', but that might be the only thing that could draw the people who already experienced all releases...to spend some bucks on the franchise again.

PS: personally I say NO to the f* full voice option. There's enough loli stuff in this one already, we don't need to hear more squealing little girls (or make it so that it can be turned off completely).

Also: for Degica; it may sound taboo to some but if you want to know what community shmuppers expect in regards of Cave PC ports, it might be a good idea to start a dedicated inquiry thread.
In it we could tell what we like best with the 360 ports (since we're basically talking about 360 to PC ports), or didn't and would like to see corrected/avoided.
We're not all the shmuppers and customers on the planet, but this community shows quite the level of knowledge I believe.
I mean it's kind of sad to see the games released and people disappointed with technical issues or preventively bored with games they don't care much about.

[Shepardus]

You know what's damn weird?

I was pretty much the only guy, bar maybe one other, who was saying Deathsmiles wasn't up to much shortly after its release for like, years. And for all those years of saying it was lacking and mediocre in comparison to other Cave works, I didn't get much support.

Fast forward to 2015 and every mofo and his dog is suddenly in agreement.

I actually really enjoy the final stage. If only the other levels were up to that par.

Very sparse enemy density, very short, those other levels.

I feel the same way. I enjoyed Deathsmiles a lot but it was mostly thanks to the final stage and TYRANNOSATAN, which is probably my favorite last stage boss from CAVE. Maybe the extra stages are also good but I haven't played them much. I'm not against short stages in general (Battle Bakraid comes to mind), but in Deathsmiles it doesn't work for me. The first six stages just pass by with very little of interest happening, and the bosses, while having pretty cool designs, practically fall over from looking at them on ranks 1 and 2, and still don't last a whole lot longer on rank 3. It also takes nearly an entire stages' worth of enemies to charge up the hyper, and it feels unsatisfying to pass by so many entire stages without using the hyper at all (of course it's very different if you're scoring properly and getting hyper recharges, but that's not much help to more casual players). The game finally picks up in the final stage (or extra stage if you choose to do that), where the stage is finally long enough that you can use the hyper multiple times during a stage and the enemies dense enough that it actually feels worth it to do so. If you've got the suicide bullets by then that also helps with recharging the hyper in vanilla Deathsmiles. If all the stages were as fun as that final stage Deathsmiles would be one of my favorite games from CAVE, but alas they're not.

[dan76]

If you don't bother learning how and when to recharge you're never going to get much out of the game. That's key to the whole scoring system. If you want a challenge for pure survival play everything at rank 3 plus the extra stage.

With MBL, give rank 999 a go...

[Weak Boson]

If there was to be any kind of extra mode, I'd like to see Level 999 difficulty with suicide bullets removed. I think that would be really fun.

[Skykid]

You know what's damn weird?

I was pretty much the only guy, bar maybe one other, who was saying Deathsmiles wasn't up to much shortly after its release for like, years. And for all those years of saying it was lacking and mediocre in comparison to other Cave works, I didn't get much support.

Fast forward to 2015 and every mofo and his dog is suddenly in agreement.

I actually really enjoy the final stage. If only the other levels were up to that par.

Very sparse enemy density, very short, those other levels.

I feel the same way. I enjoyed Deathsmiles a lot but it was mostly thanks to the final stage and TYRANNOSATAN, which is probably my favorite last stage boss from CAVE.

I'm the same. I've explained this 100 times before, but to clarify: My favourite stage is the Ice Palace, I always said if the rest of the game was like that it would be fine. Playing at rank 3 is ok but not quite enough compensation, whereas 999 rank is too much and not quite the balance I'm after.

Otherwise the initial stages are boring to work through on repeat unless you're going for score, which I have a huge gripe with because the recharge system is finicky as fuck yet getting a good score hinges entirely on getting it right. Blow a recharge on a lucrative juncture like the volcano and your score aspirations are shot.

Aesthetically it's also a mixed bag. Some of it is tonally pretty, but the plastic bag CG for most part looks like shit. A lot of weird clashing going on and a sort of experimental unfinished nature to certain aspects.

So on the whole I consider DS to lack a sound scoring system, especially having to hoover up stuff breaking into smaller stuff, and the best of it comes too late to bother working up to over and over again. I enjoy MBL more because you can recharge your meter twice as fast, but after playing it enough I finally came to the conclusion that as a bullet hell shmup it really isn't balanced as well as other CAVE games and the incentive to return to it is lacking.

The final thing that pissed me off is that the casual crowd loved the shit out of it because of its ease. It's a bonus if you're a beginner, but when it keeps making everyone's number one shmup list when it's deficient in a number of key areas is a bit irritating.

Do I think it's a good game? Of course. A great game? No. A great CAVE game - not at all. I think it's probably the weakest they've made in terms of finesse and polish, and I'm sure (without being absolutely sure, because I haven't had a chance to play it enough) that DS2 is probably the better game mechanically.

Progear is without doubt their best Hori, no question.

I just think it's weird that I spent years saying this and most people cut me off at the knee, and now after it being readily available for a long time suddenly the sentiment seems to be exactly in-line.

[Cagar]

-

[iconoclast]

Otherwise the initial stages are boring to work through on repeat unless you're going for score, which I have a huge gripe with because the recharge system is finicky as fuck yet getting a good score hinges entirely on getting it right. Blow a recharge on a lucrative juncture like the volcano and your score aspirations are shot.

How is "finicky" scoring a bad thing? The definition of the word ("showing or requiring great attention to detail") sounds like it's exactly what you should want out of an arcade game. It's hard to time and/or set up several of the recharges, and there's nothing wrong with that. If the execution were easy, people wouldn't have spent the last 8 years playing the game. Both versions are still getting new WRs every now and then, which is incredibly impressive considering how popular they were (especially when top players like SWY, ISO, TAC, K.K, etc. played it extensively)

Besides, Cave made recharges easier to pull off in MBL and easier again in DS2. They changed some things to punish your mistakes in other ways, so the systems are still balanced.

[BryanM]

It still makes zero sense to me why the higher difficulties don't have more enemy spawns. It doesn't make a bit of difference if a guy can shoot out a couple more bullets if the screen is kept clean just as easily. It's far too much the equivalent of Dodonpachi stage 1/2, but with your ship at MAXIMUM POWER from the start.

It's still a great idea which should be standard in the genre, considering how awful these games are if they're too easy or too hard for where you happen to be at in skill.

They just cheaped out and settled on suicide bullets. Le sigh.

[Skykid]

Otherwise the initial stages are boring to work through on repeat unless you're going for score, which I have a huge gripe with because the recharge system is finicky as fuck yet getting a good score hinges entirely on getting it right. Blow a recharge on a lucrative juncture like the volcano and your score aspirations are shot.

How is "finicky" scoring a bad thing? The definition of the word ("showing or requiring great attention to detail") sounds like it's exactly what you should want out of an arcade game.

I think 'fiddly' would have been a more appropriate word, but it depends how you interpret the definition with regards to this particular scoring system. Essentially the recharge opportunities are the game's scoring hinges - you wait for them to arrive and then do your best to pull them off. They're imprecise, easy to fuck up, and can kill the sum score for a whole stage if you do mistime it. I don't like that scoring setup, I prefer more of a constant. This is tied with the fact that there isn't much that's very interesting occurring in DS otherwise.

It's hard to time and/or set up several of the recharges, and there's nothing wrong with that. If the execution were easy, people wouldn't have spent the last 8 years playing the game.

That's a non-argument though, some people spend 8 years mastering all sorts of shit, but that doesn't add anything to the shit's value. Not saying DS is shit, just saying it's lesser, as I outlined in the post above.

Besides, Cave made recharges easier to pull off in MBL and easier again in DS2. They changed some things to punish your mistakes in other ways, so the systems are still balanced.

I'd argue the systems are more balanced. As I noted, MBL is preferable and I'm of the suspicion DS2 is preferable to DS entirely.

[dan76]

With MBL you basically have to one life the entire game and DS2 is so fugly you have to play it with your eyes closed - still has a nice scoring system though.

Recharging in Deathsmiles is not that difficult when compared to chaining in DOJ for example. Plus, being able to pick the stage order and difficulty through the game alters when and where you want to recharge.

The finicky scoring system can be applied to almost all Cave games. I mean, I get you don't like it. I love it, love the art style, its one of the few Cave games I can play to a decent level - but could do without the pedo overtones. Side boob anyone?

[Bananamatic]

the only one with a somewhat revealing outfit is Rosa and she's 17
do you need a burka and hijab dlc before it's not "pedo shit" or what

[Chaos Phoenixma]

There's also the Folett Bath Ending which you get if you are playing Folett and choose to stay after beating the game. And this is an ending in both of the games.

I never actually saw that one myself(outside of a stream where someone accidentally picked that one due to the game autoselecting it due to taking too long) since I would just turn off the TV when going through that one for the achievements though.


There was one for viewing it, DS2 had one for viewing it 5 times IIRC(and maybe the Japanese original Deathsmiles did too?), and the Japanese version had an achievement for 1ccing MBL 1.1 with Folett and viewing the bath ending after.


That's even worse than the Rosa outfit, but outside of Rosa's outfit and this ending sequence, there's nothing too revealing.

[iconoclast]

Essentially the recharge opportunities are the game's scoring hinges - you wait for them to arrive and then do your best to pull them off. They're imprecise, easy to fuck up, and can kill the sum score for a whole stage if you do mistime it. I don't like that scoring setup, I prefer more of a constant. This is tied with the fact that there isn't much that's very interesting occurring in DS otherwise.

They're not imprecise, they're just hard to time and set up. It's just like any other Cave scoring system, it requires lots of practice to get down consistently. The amount of points you lose for screwing up a scoring opportunity also doesn't seem much worse to me than any of Cave's other games that don't require stage-long chaining. Take the volcano stage for example. You can get 60+ million before you need to recharge, and if you do that right you can get another 30+ million. Screwing up is costly (as it should be), but it's not the end of the world. That's a lot more lenient than any Dodonpachi or Guwange.

That's a non-argument though, some people spend 8 years mastering all sorts of shit, but that doesn't add anything to the shit's value. Not saying DS is shit, just saying it's lesser, as I outlined in the post above.

Fair enough. I'm just saying that the game was not only popular with casual players - there are lots of people who are far more knowledgeable and skilled than anyone on this site that loved the game, too. It appealed to everyone.

[Shepardus]

What ultimately turned me off hyper recharging (besides the fact that I wanted to focus on getting a 1cc first) was that I found it difficult to get a sense of what I was doing wrong when I screwed up and what I should be doing. I guess it makes more sense when you've actually gotten a feel for it, but when I was playing around with it and trying to reference videos it felt like:

and sometimes I would get more recharge and sometimes less with little idea of what I did differently and how I can further improve and make it more consistent. With something like Dodonpachi I can at least remember where enemies will spawn for the next attempt and easily figure out if I need to regulate my kills more, but with Deathsmiles I was just confused.

(I felt similarly about counterbursting in DBCS, but fortunately I found that far easier to figure out, and now that I'm better at it I can actually tell if I pressed the burst button too early or too late. The first few hours were very frustrating though. Similar story for chaining Axebeak in Battle Bakraid.)

[Lobinden]

I was hoping for SDOJ or ketsui in all honesty. But I haven't played Deathsmiles before, so this should still be a good opportunity to do just that if the need arises.

[Strikers1945guy]

do you need a burka and hijab dlc before it's not "pedo shit" or what

day 1 purchase

[Skykid]

Essentially the recharge opportunities are the game's scoring hinges - you wait for them to arrive and then do your best to pull them off. They're imprecise, easy to fuck up, and can kill the sum score for a whole stage if you do mistime it. I don't like that scoring setup, I prefer more of a constant. This is tied with the fact that there isn't much that's very interesting occurring in DS otherwise.

They're not imprecise, they're just hard to time and set up. It's just like any other Cave scoring system, it requires lots of practice to get down consistently. The amount of points you lose for screwing up a scoring opportunity also doesn't seem much worse to me than any of Cave's other games that don't require stage-long chaining. Take the volcano stage for example. You can get 60+ million before you need to recharge, and if you do that right you can get another 30+ million. Screwing up is costly (as it should be), but it's not the end of the world. That's a lot more lenient than any Dodonpachi or Guwange.

But it's no way near as constant as Dodonpachi or Guwange.

Shepardus outlined the problems with recharging above perfectly:

I found it difficult to get a sense of what I was doing wrong when I screwed up and what I should be doing.

In nearly every Cave game (Mushihimesama an exception) scoring is always right there for you to dip into. DOJ chaining might be difficult, but you have a chain counter telling you when it's about to drop - all you need to do is learn to keep it alive. Guwange is even more visible, the skull counter giving you ample time to visualise how your scoring is going, and seeking out tricks to keep it alive between stages. Espgaluda I & II show you when you've scored a big hit by filling the screen with points, and glitching out to tell you you got a good one, leaving you only to play around with areas where you can capitalise on popcorn fire and enemies. Progear's gem counter is very basic, you just bring it to diamonds whenever possible and find a flood of bullets to cash out.

Deathsmiles doesn't actually do anything between recharges. There's a lot of crowns and skulls falling all over the place. It's up to you to figure out when to initiate your boost, how to string it out, and how to smash it right on the tail-end to generate enough booty to meter back up - but there's absolutely no indication of when these opportunities are arriving or ending, and absolutely nothing engaging scoring-wise occurring between them.

This is in addition to the fact that I don't like the game's difficulty balancing at all, or the tedium of playing through its initial stages to get to something genuinely engaging like the Ice Palace. You can argue 999 is there, but that just tips the scale too far in the other direction for me.

I don't feel like DS's scoring is actually that well designed, personally. I accept there's depth to it, and I accept that you need to figure out, wait for, and pull off recharges to get the most from the game. That's by far the most rewarding part of it. But it's just not as well defined as some of CAVE's other games, and feels kind of sloppy.

I actually don't really care about the Lolis, I just feel like the game lacks a certain finish.

[rancor]

do you need a burka and hijab dlc before it's not "pedo shit" or what

No, but it helps if you don't include "piss drinking" as part of the marketing for the game.

[cul]

do you need a burka and hijab dlc before it's not "pedo shit" or what

No, but it helps if you don't include "piss drinking" as part of the marketing for the game.

Wait waht? Can you elaborate?

[rancor]

At the Deathsmiles release event I went to a few years ago they were selling tea as "Windia's delicious urine"... 300 yen per bottle.