TRP-STGT 2015 Conversation Week 3: Strikers 1945 (Japan)

[hanasu]

This game blows.

It's the shittest psikyo shmup, which is kind of like saying it's the worst turd sandwich.

I hope everyone enjoys having lazily designed bullet patterns killing them because they are moving at the speed of light.

Edit: Also your hitbox is far too big.

Couldn'tve said it better.

[ProjectAKo]

sounds like you need to get good

[Squire Grooktook]

Why don't you try hard?

[Illyrian]

Powerup rank is massive, but it's not an accumulator, so powering down is the same as never having picked it up, and picking up extra does no harm. It's not super useful to stay under-powered, but it absolutely helps a ton on some boss patterns.

This game blows.

It's the shittest psikyo shmup, which is kind of like saying it's the worst turd sandwich.

Patently false.

I hope everyone enjoys having lazily designed bullet patterns killing them because they are moving at the speed of light.

A) how are they lazy? they're super creative and interesting.
B) lightning fast bullets are great, learn to play

Edit: Also your hitbox is far too big.

Oh no it's bigger than 2x2, it's massive! Get a grip.

Oh boy there's so much wrong here with what you said I cba to go through it all.

But seriously, "super creative and interesting" bullet patterns? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.

Also, opinions, everyone has their own one. We can agree to disagree!

[Squire Grooktook]

You can't agree to disagree when your laughing at someone's opinion lol.

I recommend exercising some patience and keeping an open mind. The game has certainly grown in my opinion with playtime, though I wouldn't put it in my favorites or anything (maybe I'd put it in my "honorable mentions" list, and it's still definitely below Dragon Blaze for me).

I'll just throw this out there again, but as someone developing a shmup, making "fast but low density" bullet patterns is actually really hard because it's hard to make "sight reading" difficult when the patterns are simple. There's actually a lot of subtle things going on with some of the patterns in these games, that make them a lot more fun and challenging then if they were simply just spread or aimed shots. Actually failing to recognize this might be a reason that one might do bad, being able to "see the pattern" or the optimal tactics for dodging will help you learn and dodge more effectively. If you think everything is just "lazy fast bullet spam memoshit" you're not going to memorize or react optimally.

[Blinge]

Actually failing to recognize this might be a reason that one might do bad, being able to "see the pattern" or the optimal tactics for dodging will help you learn and dodge more effectively. If you think everything is just "lazy fast bullet spam memoshit" you're not going to memorize or react optimally.

sh-shut up! You're fired from the team!

Actually, I can't "see the pattern" so fuck this game. Nevermind putting all the effort in to memorize and react optimally when early experiences with the game feel unfair.
It's all stick and no carrot; so I'd choose to put time into something else.

[Squire Grooktook]

I honestly don't think the trial and error is that bad. I mean, there are things I think are questionable, but their tolerable in that they're gone after you encounter them the first time.

I think part of the reason people might be getting salty is that "the game will be easy once I memo it, but it's too hard/to long to memo!". Now that I"ve cleared Dragon Blaze with 3 characters, I'm not so sure that's the case. I still game over on the first 4 stages of DB, so don't beat yourself up or assume that the game is just a stupid memorizer. It's just hard, period.

[Illyrian]

Dude I got to 1-8 in strikers 1999 when we played it for DTGT a few years back I understand how to learn a psikyo game. Obviously that doesn't give me the same experience as someone like you though.

The whole process of learning the game isn't very fun for me personally. But that is just how I personally feel.

Also trap15 is somewhat of a troll like me so if I want to laugh at him I can, just like he can with me.

[Perikles]

My supposition as to why people end up hating Psikyo stuff is because there is somewhat of a discrepancy between the expectations of the player and the actual learning process. Fast, chaotic bullet patterns seem to promise exciting, on the fly gameplay when in reality, it's all about memorization. And I have to concur that this aspect feels remarkably dishonest – I love memorizers, but it's one thing to study an excellently crafted horizontal shooter with diverse terrain and enemy types or having to stick to a very specific dodging pattern unless you're abnormally gifted.

I'm also personally not a friend of the graphics and music in most Psikyo games. Those guys were sinfully lazy with their sprite recycling and music compositions. There are some exceptions like Sengoku Blade and Dragon Blaze, but most of their games have a very generic, basic feel to them that emanates everything but charisma, despite all these crabs in space. I could never see myself spending more time with one of their games than I "need" to, there's really not much to enjoy besides the difficulty – which in and of itself is a strong argument for the games, of course.

[Illyrian]

This is where my point about the hit box size comes in. With a smaller hit box I think the game would allow more for some crazy fun dodges at least until you learn the attacks properly. But strikers games always feel like "learn the one single way to survive or just die" to me.

[CWM]

On rank control: I believe it works the same as in the sequel, where it was very useful to do against bosses if you were bad (like yours truly), but it was partially enabled by how broken the Hayate's charge shot was. In general the charge shot mechanics seem like they'd make survival at low power harder in this game. If you're having a lot of trouble with a boss though (bullet patterns too fast to dodge), you can try bumping into him to power down and see if it helps.

I do generally agree with Squire Grooktook that bullet patterns in Psikyo games tend to be very well designed, especially given how simple they are. Unfortunately, as you progress through the game, the fun stuff tends to give way to pure memo "be in this spot for this bullet patten". The speed of most ships is something that has always bothered me in Strikers as well - they feel too slow to macrododge effectively (you have to start moving before the attack begins), but also too fast to micrododge the denser patterns.

And I still do much better on a keyboard than a stick, for no apparent reason.

[Squire Grooktook]

I just beat (one possible) stage 7 boss blind, it's not all memo guys lol. Like I said, there's some "first time unwinnable stuff" but a lot of patterns are legit tricky and straight forward and can be dodged with good old fashioned sight reading.

In my ideal world, there'd be a bit more randomization to certain patterns, but the game is still pretty good for what it is.

This is where my point about the hit box size comes in. With a smaller hit box I think the game would allow more for some crazy fun dodges at least until you learn the attacks properly. But strikers games always feel like "learn the one single way to survive or just die" to me.

Again as with above, there are some patterns that have only one way to survive, but the majority of them aren't any different from any other game with fast bullets. You can dodge them in several ways, and you can generally recover from mistakes or bad situations.

About hitbox size: it's a trade off.

On one hand, with a large hitbox, you cannot escape from bullets when they get a certain distance to you. This gives the game a more "visceral" and "violent" feel, to me, which is good, but it also forces you to play a bit more "safely", staying as far away from bullets as you can rather then maneuvering through them.

With a smaller hitbox, You can escape from anything and things can feel more input intensive with all the space your smaller form can hide in, but can also feel somewhat floaty. And with microscopic hitboxes you don't have to move as much, and can just slowly micro tap a lot of things if the patterns aren't designed well enough (which is ultra boring IMO, although with smart pattern design, you can avoid this issue).

I think in the long run, I'd prefer a well designed game based around fast movement and not a lot of micro tapping with a small hitbox. But I enjoy sampling things from the other side of the spectrum. Variety is the spice of life, ya know?

[Illyrian]

What you say about variety is absolutely correct, but you also must agree that not everyone is going to have such a wide variety of game styles they will like compared to other players.

I do like some fast bullet games. Mushihimesama 1.0 original on high rank is awesome and strikes the right balance between bullet speed memo and adaptive dodging in the moment.

[Lyv]

I don't get what people have with Psikyo hitboxes, they've always felt very fair to me.

This game is really good ; maybe not as brilliant as Psikyo's later output, but still very enjoyable. Just wish I had more time to play this week...

(also, if you want some randomness and on-the-fly dodging, please try the second loop)

[Perikles]

(also, if you want some randomness and on-the-fly dodging, please try the second loop)

I'd say this is where memorization kicks in big time since you're not going to survive anything just by playing along anymore. In my last run I reached 2-1 with all my lives; completed the stage on my last life with just a single bomb to spare. Should go without saying that 2-2 wiped me out in a matter of seconds.

[Lyv]

I'd say this is where memorization kicks in big time since you're not going to survive anything just by playing along anymore.

Oh yes, I agree.
I was just referring to the fact that the random suicide bullets in the loop usually tend to add a strong element of uncertainty even when you have everything memorized.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah you can have an element mandatory memorization and an element of improvisation.

Again, in the ideal world, the former element would be excised, but eh whaddya gonna do.

[CWM]

I'm fine with the idea of needing to memorize things which are too difficult for me to improvise through. I do, however, very much dislike game design which requires the player to memorize in order to progress. And I don't think this is a Psikyo-exclusive problem by any measure, same is true about a good chunk of DOJ, to give an example.

If you're designing a shmup and your thought process for a given stage section or bullet pattern is "the player will need to memo this", then I think that's just bad design, period.

[Perikles]

I love memorization as a mean of finding different solutions for interesting problems. There are a lot of ways to handle R-Type's stage 6, for example, and depending on your disposition and preferred style you're going to pick one or the other. You can use the blue laser to take out the little critters, you can do it slightly different with the yellow weapon, you can play it aggressively with the DNA laser and so on. You'll have to take the environment into consideration as well as the enemies and your personal skill set. That feels tremendously satisfying to me.

Tougher Psikyo bosses resemble strict exercises, on the other hand. Sit perfectly still for the first three patterns, tap once afterwards, sit still for the next two patterns, then sweep to one side of the screen. I'm not even focusing that much on the on-screen action for I know that I'm not going to dodge by dint of reflexes, anyway. I'm the first to admit that I'm simply too bad to play these games properly. That's exclusively my problem. But it doesn't change how I feel about playing the game while I'm doing it, and it doesn't help that I'm not intrigued by the audio-visual presentation in the slightest. It's nothing but bullets at a tearing pace.

[Squire Grooktook]

My opinion is that the "ideal" game design is one where problems are complex and have multiple solutions, but are intuitive enough that one doesn't have to die to them to figure out those solutions: a skilled enough player can recognize solutions and devise plans on the fly. And indeed, I think the ideal role of randomness is to encourage this improvisation, by encouraging players to come up with new tactics on the fly as well as utilizing lizard brain reactions. The only reason I don't say "Randomize EVERYTHING" is because dedicated design can create some very unique tactics and strategies to patterns that can't be found in pure chaos, that's why a balance is needed, in order to get the best of both worlds. With dedicated design, you get a unique strategy and "feel" to each challenge, with randomness you get vibrant reaction and ongoing mental gymnastics.

Randomness should be the less of the two because it's a violent, uncontrollable beast that needs be placed carefully to avoid things like fluctuating difficulty and pace. It's completely doable to balance and/or semi control it with some smart design and programming though.

However this is a discussion of game design preferences which is neither here nor there lol.

Anyway I 1-alled the game. I think the first phase of the final boss is one of the most fun boss patterns I've ever seen. The "pod" claws shooting their V's and and spread from the main crab create some really fun, fast, and unique movements. Very manic and intense, I love it.

[Illyrian]

I love memorization as a mean of finding different solutions for interesting problems. There are a lot of ways to handle R-Type's stage 6, for example, and depending on your disposition and preferred style you're going to pick one or the other. You can use the blue laser to take out the little critters, you can do it slightly different with the yellow weapon, you can play it aggressively with the DNA laser and so on. You'll have to take the environment into consideration as well as the enemies and your personal skill set. That feels tremendously satisfying to me.

Tougher Psikyo bosses resemble strict exercises, on the other hand. Sit perfectly still for the first three patterns, tap once afterwards, sit still for the next two patterns, then sweep to one side of the screen. I'm not even focusing that much on the on-screen action for I know that I'm not going to dodge by dint of reflexes, anyway. I'm the first to admit that I'm simply too bad to play these games properly. That's exclusively my problem. But it doesn't change how I feel about playing the game while I'm doing it, and it doesn't help that I'm not intrigued by the audio-visual presentation in the slightest. It's nothing but bullets at a tearing pace.

This pretty much encapsulates how I feel about them as well.

The game has to strike the correct balance and it feels to me that psikyo games don't do that. Also the music does suck.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't really get the "strict exercise" part, because the player is human: at any given time, mistakes can cause the player to lose control of the situation.

Some parts are more easy to master then others, but I've cleared Dragon Blaze 3 times now, and every stage has a place where I can be forced into panic-y improvisation for even the smallest execution error.

In that regard, there's little difference between it and Mushi/Futari Original, as far as I can tell. Both games are about as static, and in fact I'd say the Mushi's are far easie0 games to control (for a basic clear, mind you) and "not look at the screen" because Psyikyo employs oldschool angle locking to make sure even basic aimed shots can end up in several different places based on subtle positioning.

[copy-paster]

The game has to strike the correct balance and it feels to me that psikyo games don't do that. Also the music does suck.

Play Strikers II and III, more enjoyable.

[Illyrian]

The game has to strike the correct balance and it feels to me that psikyo games don't do that. Also the music does suck.

Play Strikers II and III, more enjoyable.

I much prefer strikers 3, it is pretty much the only psikyo game I can enjoy.

[Blinge]

I used to think I was good at shmups.

[Despatche]

the p-51 will set you free

I'm really shocked people can't even appreciate the cool music and amazing spritework going on here. And people tried to tell me there wasn't this giant hatred of Psikyo! See, stuff like this is why all these people trying to claim "opinion" all the time sound like a bunch of liars. When so many people say the exact same thing (positive or negative) about a game, and this thing is so fundamentally contradictory to how they feel about so many similar games (positive or negative), it seems like something is just plain wrong.

It just baffles me that someone can see so much about R-Type and so little about Strikers. All this tells me is that this particular someone simply likes R-Type more than Strikers; it says absolutely nothing about anything relating to the games themselves. It also completely and utterly mystifies me that people who apparently hate memorization think so highly of Mushihimesama Ultra. I've seen that too many times now. I'm sorry, but that is true insanity.

If you're designing a shmup and your thought process for a given stage section or bullet pattern is "the player will need to memo this", then I think that's just bad design, period.

Any non-random shmup is pure memorization. If you have to improvise, you simply don't know what you're doing. You can hate this all you like, but if you ever want to get good at these games, you have to accept it. People need to stop hating memorization because of their totally different experiences in school or whatever.

[Shepardus]

Any non-random shmup is pure memorization. If you have to improvise, you simply don't know what you're doing.

This statement completely ignores the execution factor, though. Just because you know what you have to do doesn't mean you're going to do it successfully every time. And just because something isn't random doesn't mean there isn't any value to be found in improvising - sure, it may not be the most efficient way to play the game, but I personally find myself coming back to Dodonpachi more than Dodonpachi Daioujou because its bullet patterns tend to be more open to improvisation and you're less likely to get completely walled in if you screw up herding the bullets.

[trap15]

I'm really shocked people can't even appreciate the cool music and amazing spritework going on here.

This is what really blows my mind, tbh. The art is really really detailed and impressive. The music has great composition too, which is unfortunately marred by the hideous samples on the YMF version. Play the unprotected set and you'll hear it as it was meant to be heard, or listen to this: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11274027

[ACSeraph]

I used to think I was good at shmups.

I'm getting my shit wrecked too. I forged a basic route for the first loop but haven't been able to actually execute it. This one really doesn't give you much room for error. I was raging and shouting a lot of hate at the game last night, but I think it was mostly salt.

I'm really shocked people can't even appreciate the cool music and amazing spritework going on here.

Yeah I was really impressed by the artwork. Is it just me or does this look significantly better than Strikers II? It comes off as a little bit generic as first, but as you get further in that Psikyo personality really shines through. Not feeling the music though.

[CWM]

If you're designing a shmup and your thought process for a given stage section or bullet pattern is "the player will need to memo this", then I think that's just bad design, period.

Any non-random shmup is pure memorization. If you have to improvise, you simply don't know what you're doing. You can hate this all you like, but if you ever want to get good at these games, you have to accept it. People need to stop hating memorization because of their totally different experiences in school or whatever.

I don't hate memorization. I dislike game design which kills the player immediately if they don't know what's coming. Having to memorize games in order to play them well is fine, and usually fun. Having to memorize the exact route that takes you through the successive safe spots in the boss' attacks, which consist of bullets so fast they can't be sightread, is boring and a waste of time.

For the record, I think these complaints about memo in Strikers are overblown, I don't think the game forces you to memorize any more than the average Cave game, all in all. But when it does, boy, can it be obnoxious about it.