Is this save-state abuse and considered cheating?

[pegboy]

For games like Strikers 1945 II, where the stage order is "random", is it looked down upon to only play a specific stage ordering via MAME save states? I know for a fact that the stage ordering is static once you start your credit, even in loop 2, which IMO makes a HUGE difference in the level of challenge. You can abuse this using a save state to pretty much play any ordering you want since you can reload the state with the pre-determined ordering you saved.

It should be noted that it is impossible to do this consistently on a PCB (I think?) or the PS1 port of the game (not that I could figure out at least). Note, I am not using any actual save states during my playthrough, only to "seed" the game with the stage ordering that is advantageous. I wonder how many of the scores on this site for Psikyo games used this technique? Does a player need to "grind through" the game until they randomly get the stage ordering they want without using a save state?

Specifically for Strikers II, getting the "town" stage (the one with the blimp boss) in 2-1 seems to make a big difference because that's IMO the hardest stage in the game and requires around 4-5 bombs to survive it consistently. Thus having it early in loop 2 (where you probably have a full stock of bombs) would be easier than trying to play through the other stages first (which only require 1-2 bombs each) and not having enough bombs and dropping even more lives.

[ProjectAKo]

There might be some way to control it. Each time you reset, the RNG should be in the same state. If it's a list of random numbers, anything that eats up a random number before you push start (demo player shots, "random" animations in the intro) will advance the list to a certain state. If it's that type, you just have to learn when to push start. In Sonic Wings 2 I learned that luckily you always get the best stage start order from starting the game immediately. And if, at the start, you shoot 4 times and then suicide, the RNG list will be always give you a free bomb,

If your input changes the RNG, you might be able to memorize some inputs before starting the game.

The worst would be some kind of frame based RNG. There's not really any good way to manipulate that, not even autofire on the start button since you still need to put the coin in frame perfectly.

[Shepardus]

Hmm, good question, I'm not sure yet. But it's worth noting that for many (all?) Psikyo games, Strikers 1945 II included, the stage order on your first credit after booting up will always be the same (at least in MAME).

Edit: Like ProjectAKo said, the RNG seed may be based on various game events. In Psikyo games it fortunately doesn't seem to be frame-dependent. In Gunbird 1 you can press Start a certain number of times before selecting your character to change your stage order. That doesn't seem to work in Strikers 1945 II though. I personally wouldn't hold it against you if you used a savestate to set the stage order, especially if there's a tedious way to do it without savestates anyway; it wouldn't be much different from having a savestate at the title screen of Garegga so you don't have to sit through the loading screen every time.

[Perikles]

I'd say it isn't since it merely cuts down your time. How would it be more "legit" if you were to constantly restart the game until you get the pattern you want? Just save yourself the hassle and set up the pattern you want in the first place. At least some of the PS2 Psikyo ports address this (I certainly know this is true for the first Gunbird) by giving you the option to select the stage order however you please.

[pegboy]

Hmm, good question, I'm not sure yet. But it's worth noting that for many Psikyo games, Strikers 1945 II included, the stage order on your first credit after booting up will always be the same (at least in MAME).

Yeah I noticed this for Strikers as well. I'm not sure if it's actually true for the real PCB though.

I'm kind of on the fence on this one. On one hand, playing the MAME versions has allowed me to almost 2-ALL the game (last night I got to 2-8 using this seeding technique). The farthest I've ever reached on the PS1 version was 2-4. I'm also attributing some of this to my controller (PS3 sixaxis d-pad > any ps1/ps2 controller I've ever used) and well as some visibility issues playing through a CRT using composite video vs pure, crisp MAME graphics on an LCD. The bullets are a lot harder to see on the CRT, which again, all these little things make a big difference.

[copy-paster]

Reminds me of Prometheus's guidebook while save state is the important parts to getting good at shmups, at least he use it to save each stage to memorize all the enemy placement and attacks.

[Lyv]

Yeah I noticed this for Strikers as well. I'm not sure if it's actually true for the real PCB though.

It is. For all of the post-Strikers II games as well.
I recall someone claiming that the JP version of the Dragon Blaze PCB behaved differently and didn't offer this fixed order, but I couldn't verify this claim myself.

On topic : I wouldn't consider it cheating, just somewhat useless for this specific game.

[Shepardus]

Reminds me of Prometheus's guidebook while save state is the important parts to getting good at shmups, at least he use it to save each stage to memorize all the enemy placement and attacks.

That's different though, Prometheus advocates using savestates for practice, but doesn't start from a savestate during an actual run.

On a side note, this is why I appreciate Armed Police Batrider and Battle Bakraid's stage edit feature; I don't think I would have ever bothered with Bakraid if I had to rely on getting the perfect order of its four random stages.

[DMC]

I wouldn't go as far as cheating, because the save state is implemented before you start to play and its effect can be attributed to the booting up of the game.

But whether it is legitimate is debatable, because a pcb/console player would need to play through two whole stages before knowing whether a run is "ruined" by suboptimal stage order. In a short term tournament like STGT I would advice against this save-state manipulation, because time is more precious there. But for long-term record hunting I think the effect is rather neglible (a top-level high-scorer could save state-practice most of the time until he is ready to go for a record).

One concern I've had is that other elements in the game might also be randomized. For instance, Psikyo has some locations where one of two bosses appear (and they are randomized I think, please correct me otherwise!). Unless you're pretty sure a savestate does not affect anything else than stage order and you want to strive for some "official record" (lika a western record), I would recommend avoiding this save state manipulation, but otherwise I think it is not a big deal.

Relatedly, I dont think it is cheating to start Batrider from the service menu either (which decreases rank immediately, in contrast to waiting some 20-30 minutes or so, which also lowers rank iirc).

[Perikles]

But whether it is legitimate is debatable, because a pcb/console player would need to play through two whole stages before knowing whether a run is "ruined" by suboptimal stage order.

...unless the console version allows stage order, too. What about the PS2 ports (does anyone know if the PS2 Strikers 1945 collection has it or not?) that do hand out this choice? Would it be potentially illegitimate to use it?

[pegboy]

I wouldn't go as far as cheating, because the save state is implemented before you start to play and its effect can be attributed to the booting up of the game.

But whether it is legitimate is debatable, because a pcb/console player would need to play through two whole stages before knowing whether a run is "ruined" by suboptimal stage order. In a short term tournament like STGT I would advice against this save-state manipulation, because time is more precious there. But for long-term record hunting I think the effect is rather neglible (a top-level high-scorer could save state-practice most of the time until he is ready to go for a record).

One concern I've had is that other elements in the game might also be randomized. For instance, Psikyo has some locations where one of two bosses appear (and they are randomized I think, please correct me otherwise!). Unless you're pretty sure a savestate does not affect anything else than stage order and you want to strive for some "official record" (lika a western record), I would recommend avoiding this save state manipulation, but otherwise I think it is not a big deal.

Relatedly, I dont think it is cheating to start Batrider from the service menu either (which decreases rank immediately, in contrast to waiting some 20-30 minutes or so, which also lowers rank iirc).

Well it's actually much worse than playing 2 stages, because the loop 2 order is not the same as loop 1 (other than when you first start the game up). So in effect you'd need to clear the first loop to know if you got the "easy" stage ordering in loop 2 or not. I do not believe it influences the random boss you get in stage 7, as I've seen both bosses playing off the same save state (even with starting a save state at the beginning of stage 7 I'm pretty sure the boss is still random).

As far as a "record" (I think the concept of a "western record" is pretty stupid but that's a whole different thread), how would you even be able to determine if someone used save states to seed stages versus just randomly playing it and got that stage? That's my biggest issue with saying it's cheating, because depending on the context one is cheating and the other isn't even though they both played the exact same stage ordering?

[To Far Away Times]

Reminds me of Prometheus's guidebook while save state is the important parts to getting good at shmups, at least he use it to save each stage to memorize all the enemy placement and attacks.

That's different though, Prometheus advocates using savestates for practice, but doesn't start from a savestate during an actual run.

On a side note, this is why I appreciate Armed Police Batrider and Battle Bakraid's stage edit feature; I don't think I would have ever bothered with Bakraid if I had to rely on getting the perfect order of its four random stages.

Indeed. I think there might have been joystick combinations you could hold to select the stages as well, but it's been awhile.

[MathU]

Relatedly, I dont think it is cheating to start Batrider from the service menu either (which decreases rank immediately, in contrast to waiting some 20-30 minutes or so, which also lowers rank iirc).

I'm not sure how this rumor ever started, but that's not quite how it works sadly. When you start the game from service mode via the Start button it permanently "unlocks" a substantially lower level of game difficulty than is normally available (lower than even the normal starting difficulties of Training and Normal courses) and starts the game at that level. Normally it is not possible to lower the adaptive difficulty to this level because there's a hard lower limit that the game won't go below no matter how long you wait or how many times you suicide. In effect, it is essentially an "easy mode" selector that remains activated for the duration of that game boot. On the other hand, if you start the game from the service mode using a different button, the adaptive difficulty counter starts at the same level and at the same lower limit as when you boot it without service mode on.

For all of Raizing's Yagawa games, their adaptive difficulty levels are set to their natural lowest points upon booting; waiting around won't get it any lower. It is only after dying that the sneaky system needs some time to "cool off" before the next credit. If you don't want to wait that long you can just reboot the game, but merely starting from service mode isn't normally any different than a regular boot. Armed Police Batrider just has this one exception in this trick with service mode and booting with the Start button which lets you unlock and start with an even lower adaptive difficult level than is possible otherwise.


As for the topic, yeah that's kind of cheating. I wouldn't really compare it to a playthrough of a game with the randomness intact and unexpected by the player.

[pegboy]

Any more opinions on this? If people think this is cheating I'm not going to post scores using this method.

[KAI]

Yep, it's cheating.

Spoiler

[Doctor Butler]

I'd say it isn't since it merely cuts down your time. How would it be more "legit" if you were to constantly restart the game until you get the pattern you want?

I would say it is, simply because it's not possible to manually reset the game on legit hardware, in an arcade setting, as was intended by the developers.

It's very useful for practice, though.

[Cee]

I would say it is, simply because it's not possible to manually reset the game on legit hardware, in an arcade setting, as was intended by the developers.

Right and what if you own a cab and legit hardware and can just reset it?

[trap15]

Then do that? There was no question about resetting, the question is if using a save-state to get a fixed starting RNG is cheating. IMO, yes it is, but I don't think it's particularly awful.

[Perikles]

I would say it is, simply because it's not possible to manually reset the game on legit hardware, in an arcade setting, as was intended by the developers.

The same developers added a stage select for at least some of their games on the PS2. Would you call it cheating if someone were to use the stage select in Gunbird or Sengoku Blade on the PS2?

[apatheticTurd]

To be literal, it is "cheating" in the sense that it's using an external mean to get an advantage, one that people who can't use an emulator for whatever reason would not have access to.

To answer the actual question tho, I view it as acceptable cheating, the same way I consider using autofire (in games where mashing really hard doesn't increase the power of your shots, Blazing Star-style) to be acceptable cheating. Sure, you can reset your Strikers 1945 cabinet until you get the desired stage order but that doesn't require any mental acuity, motor skills... or anything, really. Ultimately the guy who use a save state to get the optimal stage order isn't any more advantaged than the one who gets lucky and get it on their first try as far as the actual competition go, so anything to streamline that kind of stuff, the better I say.

[MR_Soren]

"I don't always use save states, but, when I do, it's only for practice."


I don't think it's fair to post to scoreboards if save states were used in any way on that particular run.

[AeroCityMayor]

Cheating!!!

Not available on original hardware.

**possibly** OK for practice/training.

£0.02

[Perikles]

Just had a look at Hagane's magnificent Sengoku Blade guide. Here's one of the chapters:

STAGE SELECT

One thing to note for people wanting to play for score: I recommend playing the PS2 version as it lets you select the order for the initial random stages. Like all Psikyo games that have three slots for four possible random stages, there's one stage here (Air) that gives much less score than the others and you'll go crazy resetting if you want to get a good order. Also, some characters benefit more from certain stage orders than others.

If you don't have a PS2 or just want to play in MAME, here's a savestate at the character select screen with the following stage order:

1st loop: Water, Temple, Forest

2nd loop: Forest, Water, Temple

Put it in your tenjaij savestate folder, it's mapped to the q letter. It's for the 2.2 version, as 3.0 doesn't work well with this game (sound breaks and savestates are buggy).

"Common law" of this sort obviously doesn't constitute legitimacy eo ipso. But I can't help but get the feeling that a lot of serious players use these shortcuts to their advance, and understandably so in my opinion.

[pegboy]

"I don't always use save states, but, when I do, it's only for practice."


I don't think it's fair to post to scoreboards if save states were used in any way on that particular run.

Well I'm pretty sure the scoreboards here are already littered with them. Like Perikles posted, the guy running the Sengoku Blade strategy guide was literally advertising and passing out save states and has posted some very high scores on here for that game.

I could post my 2-8 score for Strikers II but I will probably just keep playing it either on the PS1 port or MAME using the default stage ordering so there is no controversy.

[MR_Soren]

"I don't always use save states, but, when I do, it's only for practice."


I don't think it's fair to post to scoreboards if save states were used in any way on that particular run.

Well I'm pretty sure the scoreboards here are already littered with them. Like Perikles posted, the guy running the Sengoku Blade strategy guide was literally advertising and passing out save states and has posted some very high scores on here for that game.

I could post my 2-8 score for Strikers II but I will probably just keep playing it either on the PS1 port or MAME using the default stage ordering so there is no controversy.

My opinion and the actions of others are entirely separate things. If randomness is part of the game design, then removing it is a cheat; it wouldn't be allowed in live competition. Of course, these scoreboards are not live competition nor is proof required. It's the honor system, so post whatever your honor allows.

[Limbrooke]

Well I'm pretty sure the scoreboards here are already littered with them. Like Perikles posted, the guy running the Sengoku Blade strategy guide was literally advertising and passing out save states and has posted some very high scores on here for that game.

I could post my 2-8 score for Strikers II but I will probably just keep playing it either on the PS1 port or MAME using the default stage ordering so there is no controversy.

The advantage gained by using save states over raw practice is enormous in terms of adaptation (learning) and time spent. If you have a scored run that starts with a save state because it offers a suitable stage ordering I don't believe it's cheating beyond using save states at all, which is to say I feel there is little difference. If anything you may think it a conflict of interest to say a run was done clean, which in theory it was, pardon how it was initiated. To keep a cleaner conscience just leave the save states to practice and as for Psikyo games run through until a suitable stage order is populated (it doesn't take long anyway).

[brokenhalo]

If you can find a way to manipulate the rng to get a preferred stage order/ boss pattern, etc., I say go for it. It's incredibly stupid that you might have to do dozens of runs (or more) to get the correct rng to allow for max score, and then you have the added pressure of having to nail it on that perfect opportunity.

If somebody made a garegga hack that allowed for perfect scoring rng the whole run, would people fault Kamui for using it? Or would you tell her that she should do hundreds upon hundreds of runs hoping to get lucky on a perfect rng run? I understand that rng is part of the game, but when it has such a potential to effect scoring, manipulating the seed shouldn't be an issue, regardless of whether it's a "trick" or a save state that starts the run on a favorable seed. As long as the run starts at the begnning of stage 1, it shouldn't be a problem. It's up the player to perform at that point.

[Strikers1945guy]

If you're doing anything to play the game in a way it wasn't intended to be played then yes it's cheating.

[Strikers1945guy]

If you can find a way to manipulate the rng to get a preferred stage order/ boss pattern, etc., I say go for it. It's incredibly stupid that you might have to do dozens of runs (or more) to get the correct rng to allow for max score, and then you have the added pressure of having to nail it on that perfect opportunity.

If somebody made a garegga hack that allowed for perfect scoring rng the whole run, would people fault Kamui for using it? Or would you tell her that she should do hundreds upon hundreds of runs hoping to get lucky on a perfect rng run? I understand that rng is part of the game, but when it has such a potential to effect scoring, manipulating the seed shouldn't be an issue, regardless of whether it's a "trick" or a save state that starts the run on a favorable seed. As long as the run starts at the begnning of stage 1, it shouldn't be a problem. It's up the player to perform at that point.

I wouldn't fault him for doing it, but it's still technically cheating. He's so good though he doesn't have to do that

[brokenhalo]

If you're doing anything to play the game in a way it wasn't intended to be played then yes it's cheating.

But the way i look at it, you really aren't. Let's look at a made up example: a game with three stages, that come in random order every time you play. This gives you a total of 6 possible stage orders. One particular stage order is more lucrative for scoring than any of the 5 other orders. So if you play this game, you start up and one of two scenarios occurs. You get a "bad" stage one and reset, or you get the "good" stage one and play. You complete the good stage one, and either roll a "bad" stage two and reset, or the "good" stage 2 and continue on. This is playing the game the way it was intended.

Now if you can generate a seed that gives you the preferred stage order, why would this be cheating? The only advantage this gives is saving you time from constantly re-rolling your game. You're still playing the game 100% as intended, just cutting out some of the down time.

And Kamui's skill doesn't really enter into it, as at this point her score is largely dependent on the rng. And bear in mind that some of the most lucrative scoring rng doesn't enter in until around 40+ minutes into the run, with Black Heart 2's mines. Hardly seems fair to have to play a credit that far in just to find out if the rng pooped out the right number for you.