Cave & Capitalism

[donluca]

So what you're saying is we should go for deception by omission then?

I strongly believe it's ok to criticize the issues, but without "overdoing" it.
Give them a chance to fix the issue and then, if they manage to bring you a quality product, praise them for doing so, instead of just going full "this is bullshit, game is broken" mode.

I think it's possible on Steam to update your review at anytime, so there's that.

[Opus131]

As I wish not to be lumped in with the thread's earlier derailment, allow me to rephrase my earlier concern.

Before anyone submits an honest account of the port's issues on the store page, please consider the effect it may have on the game's sales or reputation.
While suggesting that potential buyers wait until the bugs are fixed is a perfectly valid idea, I believe any negativity associated with the port can only do damage to CAVE/Degica or have an impact on sales, even after the bugs are fixed. The steam community are a fickle bunch, I assume many people just skim over the reviews and just see the red thumbsdowns.

I'm not criticising; just suggesting discretion. =]

While I've been promoting the game left and right to my friends, I simply don't agree with this. Reviews are there for a reason.

I can't help but notice that Japanese studios have a really poor understanding, and probably a poor opinion about PC gaming. With very few exception, every major "japanese games" I've bought on PC were TERRIBLE ports.

I bought Killer is Dead on release day, game is still unplayable to this day by thousands of people who bought it by a bug that prevented you from finishing level 2 if you have something less than a quad core CPU. Plenty of programmers on the forum said it was a very easy fix, the game hasn't been officially patched to this day, some guy on the forum showed how you have to do it yourself with an hex editor.

Dark Souls 1 ? Well, technically it worked, but the performance and the graphics were shit, the game had no graphic options, obviously was never patched/improved. So once again, an amateur coder created a simple file that allowed you to tweak the graphics and improve the graphical quality of the game and even the performace. Why couldn't the devs do it? And dont get me started on how cheating, getting infnite life/stamina/regen on your character ONLINE is as easy as editing a text file. A problem that ruined DS 1, that was present day 1 on DS2 release with the dev simply saying "we can't do anything about it, tough luck, please people, be nice, don't cheat online". Freaking brilliant.

Final Fantasy XIII? "lol"?


So now, we got Cave finally porting Shmups on PC, and I'm happy for that, especially since Mushihimesama is probably my favorite Shmup of all. But it doesn't mean that the port is perfect, or even good.
So we got a PC port with day 1 major bugs, without ANY KIND of graphical options, on a PC. Full screening the game is in 720p, and now, worst of all, they "patch it" by forcing Vsync ON EVERYONE.

I wish Japanese devs would actually try playing games on a PC for a minute, and realize that this plateform isn't a console plateform where everyone has the same hardware, and that basic graphical options like resolution and Vsync are mandatory, they aren't a luxury, they're the bare minimum you have to provide to ensure that the game will run fine on the vast diversity of hardware combinations out there, and releasing a game with these unchangeable settings is always a recipe for disaster and discontent.

They aren't the first japanese "small" studio to port a game to PC, they should have known all of this, and yet they made every single mistakes I've been expecting them to do as a japanese developer porting a game to PC. Now you can gaslight all you want, but a steam forum full of complaints spreads the information around very fast, and prevent plenty of people from buying the game, and that's way worse than a couple of bad reviews no one read on the steam page, and that lies entirely on the dev and publishers shoulders.

This is very true unfortunately. I'm lucky with Mushimesama because i don't have any issue except the occasional stuttering. But already i'm spoiled by the higher resolution i can get with Dante's program, and i probably couldn't go back. With Dark Souls 1 is even worse. That game is near night unplayable without DSfix.

I really don't get Japan's prejudice and ignorance regarding the PC. I mean, they do use them, right? That's where they develop their games to begin with, yes? Why is it so hard to even get the basics right?

[Obscura]

The Dark Souls 1 PC port isn't as bad as people say it is; just turn off motion blur, and it looks reasonable, and is entirely playable.

There's plenty of very good PC versions from Japanese devs. DMC 4, Dark Souls 2 (vanilla is even better than PS3/X360 version), Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, Raiden III and IV, KoF XIII (another one that's definitely better than the console version), Street Fighter IV, all of the PC versions of Falcom's games, the Metal Slug games on Steam, and tons of doujin stuff.

It's not "Japanese games on PC are terrible", it's "Cave/Degica did a shitty job". Let's stop trying to absolve them out of a misguided fan mentality.

[Squire Grooktook]

It's not a fan mentality, it's more that what these guys are doing might be the best hope for kicking some small amount of extra life into the genre.

That being said, personally I agree that people shouldn't omit port issues, especially ones so aggrevious as potential crashes or locked 50 fps. On the other hand, reviews marked as negative might be too much, and might hurt sales more then they need to. Like I said a few pages back I would just write a recommended review, but put a big WARNING at the very top mentioning the port issues and how they are working on a patch.

[Obscura]

"Hurt sales more than they need to"?

Why shouldn't a shitty port have bad sales? It's true that you get more of what you support, but the part that people leave out is that also applies to quality. Support crap -> get more crap. We've already seen Degica put out one previous port recently with glaring technical issues (Eschatos) that was widely supported and championed anyways, and I think we can see the lesson they took from that.

[Squire Grooktook]

Why shouldn't a shitty port have bad sales?

Because we might not see more shmups otherwise.

All of the ports have been satisfactory to me (though admittedly, I've had chronically less issues. Mushi has always been running at 60 fps for me, and Eschatos almost never stutters except during cutscene. Also I own both versions), and I'd rather have an okay port then none.

The second reason is also because these issues will probably be patched.

[Obscura]

Why shouldn't a shitty port have bad sales?

Because we might not see more shmups otherwise.

Nonsense. Genres don't die like that. If shmups really do "disappear" for a few years, they'll come back in a new wave just like the indie platformer phenomenon.

Besides, the doujin scene is sure to keep pumping them out, since they require less technical and programming skill than most other genres.

[Squire Grooktook]

Why shouldn't a shitty port have bad sales?

Because we might not see more shmups otherwise.

Nonsense. Genres don't die like that. If shmups really do "disappear" for a few years, they'll come back in a new wave just like the indie platformer phenomenon.

Besides, the doujin scene is sure to keep pumping them out, since they require less technical and programming skill than most other genres.

I agree, but it's not a matter of dying: More I think the recent influx of quality (and sometimes professional/commercially released) shmups on Steam has some potential to pump some extra life into the genre and reinvigorate it a bit. They might sell a teensy bit better, might have a stronger presence on the niche radar, might get more people trying them out. Maybe become just plain old "niche" instead of "super ultra niche" which they were for a while.

One can dream.

[Obscura]

You want to support a perceived increase in quality by supporting ports that are agreed to be sub-par?

What?

[Friendlyfriend]

I wouldn't call the mushi port "terrible". Absolutely not when compared to majorly botched PC releases, but it's far from ideal.

Given that this is CAVE's first venture into the PC space, obviously not counting Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine, I feel like some slack should be given but not much since it's hardly Degica's first time consulting in this fashion. Now when it comes around for the next release, this is where CAVE/Degica need to absolutely ensure that the same issues do not arise again because there will be no excuse for it. Future releases need proper screen options such as resolution & monitor selection, fully mappable keyboard controls and fleshed out Xinput support.

By all means though, if people don't feel comfortable buying the release in its current state then that's absolutely fine and concerns should be voiced.

One thing I think was poorly dealt with was the initial test codes and early access keys given out. Obviously there wasn't a large enough variance of PCs tested and how on earth some of those youtubers got keys is beyond me. I understand it's a tricky situation where you don't want to eat into too many potential sales by handing out keys to testers but it's probably worth it in the long run, even if the keys are eventually revoked after testing. Currently Ghostlight do surveys to get a list of various machine setups, give keys out to match their criteria and then allow testers to keep their copies of the game once it releases.

[cul]

Why shouldn't a shitty port have bad sales?

Because we might not see more shmups otherwise.

I really can't stand this mentality on blaming it on the customers who got a faulty product. "You won't get any new game if you speak the truth about it".

First, because it's morally wrong, second, because it doesn't change anything. No one reads Steam reviews, but people browse the Steam forums, and they are ridden with complaints, and that's more damaging to the sales than anything.

Now, what is really damaging to the sales, is releasing an untested beta product lacking the basic settings any PC game should have, and using the first customers as beta testers, promising them that in a supposedly near future, the game will be "fixed. THAT relies entirely on Cave/Degica, not on the people talking about those issues in reviews.

Why Crimzon Clover worked flawlessly even before its Steam released, a game that was developed by a single guy; why Cave can't do the same?

[Squire Grooktook]

You want to support a perceived increase in quality by supporting ports that are agreed to be sub-par?

What?

I did not say an increase in quality, but an increased presence from the genre. Although yes, many of the games Degica has brought over have extremely high quality, and if a sub-par port is the only way for some people to play them, then it's more then worth it.

While some of the ports may be allegedly subpar, most of them run fine for me, as I said, so I'm happy with them. It beats the shit out of emulation. They may also be improved in the future.

Supporting Degica, even with a "sub par port" is not necessarily supporting sub par ports. Degica is the publisher, aren't they? It's the actual developer who handles the programming, isn't it? In that case, the quality of the port is entirely dependent on the developer, which has been different for each game they've brought over.

Why shouldn't a shitty port have bad sales?

Because we might not see more shmups otherwise.

I really can't stand this mentality on blaming it on the customers who got a faulty product. "You won't get any new game if you speak the truth about it".

You didn't read my previous posts where I suggested mentioning the various issues in any reviews that are written, did you?

I also didn't "blame" anyone. Except maybe casuals. Fuck casuals.

[Opus131]

Sub-par ports (declaimer: the port isn't as bad as all that) is better than no ports, yes. When the Xbox 360 gets retired that's going to be the end of Cave (i'm not counting iOS since there's no way in hell i'm going to play a shmup on a tiny touch screen). What then? Wait for an emulator? Hope Microsoft uses their crappy backward compatibility system for the Xbox One? Back to MAME?

[HenAi]

The game seems to be doing kinda okay so far, in any case. http://steamspy.com/app/377860

[Obscura]

I did not say an increase in quality, but an increased presence from the genre.

Who cares about increased presence if the quality isn't there? What good is having a million mediocre-to-bad games?

This is the exact "support the scene" argument that made hardcore punk irrelevant in the '80s, and death and black metal irrelevant in the latter half of the '90s. Instead of championing a few great bands, those scenes started chanting "support the scene!", and thus the scene got flooded with crap to the point that it was impossible to pick out the few great bands among the hordes of fifth-tier imitators.

Want to know why hip-hop has managed to stay culturally relevant for decades, even as loads of other genres have died in the eyes of most? It's because they've never fallen into that mentality. Rappers have always been competitive with each other, instead of having a scene that supports everyone, so the best get championed while the rest fall to the wayside.

If you support crap, you get more crap.

Supporting Degica, even with a "sub par port" is not necessarily supporting sub par ports. Degica is the publisher, aren't they? It's the actual developer who handles the programming, isn't it? In that case, the quality of the port is entirely dependent on the developer, which has been different for each game they've brought over.

And why should you support Degica, aside from what they release? And if they're releasing a sub-par port, why should you support that?

I also didn't "blame" anyone. Except maybe casuals. Fuck casuals.

This mentality is ridiculous, FYI. These same "casuals" are picking up and playing games that take shit-tons of work to be decent at, such as DotA 2, Rocket League, TF2, etc. Sure, you may not think those are good games (I certainly don't), but they're games that take effort. They're not abandoning shmups because they're casual, and as long as people think that's why shmups are being abandoned, the genre will continue to be moribund.

[Momijitsuki]

All of this finger-pointing is really stupid. It is what it is, and what it is happens to be something with a lot of potential that sadly did not get all of the attention it should have before release. It's buggy and flawed, we all know it, and there's really no sense or use throwing tantrums or insults about it. If you bought it and don't like it, get your refund and move on.

What is best for the sake of this game is helping Degica out with the constructive criticism and bug reporting so they can fix what they did not address before release. It shouldn't be our job to do that with what was supposed to be a final release, but if you want the PC port that bad, suck it up and be a part of the solution, not the problem.

[Squire Grooktook]

I did not say an increase in quality, but an increased presence from the genre.

Who cares about increased presence if the quality isn't there? What good is having a million mediocre-to-bad games?

You pretty much ignored everything I said in my last post. To recap:

1. The games themselves are extremely high quality.

2. The ports are merely passabe, and are already improving with the two patches, one of which was released today.

3. The developer is different with each game Degica has brought over, so "support crap, get crap" does not apply. The next port could be 100% perfect if they port a game from a developer with more know how or a game that's more easily adapted to PC.

4. The increased genre activity may cause other publishers and developers to take risks on shmups. How good 2 Degica ports doesn't really have any impact on this, especially if they are developed ground up for the PC (ie most doujin games).

Supporting Degica, even with a "sub par port" is not necessarily supporting sub par ports. Degica is the publisher, aren't they? It's the actual developer who handles the programming, isn't it? In that case, the quality of the port is entirely dependent on the developer, which has been different for each game they've brought over.

And why should you support Degica, aside from what they release? And if they're releasing a sub-par port, why should you support that?

Because they are releasing video games that I want to play, run fine for me, are improving as ports?

I've genuinely enjoyed every game they've brought over, one of which is among my favorite games ever, and I look forward to playing the next game they bring over.

It's also worth noting that only two games have had issues. CCWI is fine, as is Delta Zeal (and by extension, I assume Trizeal). Eschatos has some very minor issues (which I did not experience at all), and Mushi had some big issues day one.

defending casuals

Heresy.

I guarantee you that no matter what design philosophy you embrace, no shmup will ever rise above "niche" in this day and age due to the tastes of the majority of gamers. The handful of people who put effort into Dota are not the same as the millions who play it and goof off mid-game, something I've experienced universally from my own friends playing the game, and every single person I've ever seen do so. Similarly, the vast majority of players who play TF2 put no effort into it and merely goof off in 2Fort all day or farm hats.

[Obscura]

1. The games themselves are extremely high quality.

HAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, but Mushi and Eschatos and "high quality" doesn't compute.

Want proof? The same crowd that's willing to spend a ton of effort dissecting the Souls games isn't biting. Think about that for a second.

3. The developer is different with each game Degica has brought over, so "support crap, get crap" does not apply. The next port could be 100% perfect if they port a game from a developer with more know how or a game that's more easily adapted to PC.

And you don't think that Degica is going to look at previous sales figures when they choose which developers to work with in the future?

4. The increased genre activity may cause other publishers and developers to take risks on shmups.

Again, what's needed isn't quantity.

Heresy.

Oh ho, there's the cognitive dissonance! Let's keep pushing on that nerve a bit!

Time for another music analogy -- how were a few kids in a remote part of Europe able to completely revolutionize metal in 1992?

The textbook answer is "it was the arsons and murders!", but a study of the genre's history will tell you that's wrong. Such actions weren't terribly uncommon in metal in 1986 - 1990 in the new world -- it's just that only the most die-hard genre enthusiasts remember the grave desecrations in Florida and Canada, or the murders in Louisiana.

The real reason is that when the genre was fading, while most of the rest of the world looked outwards to explain why, the Norse scene looked inwards. To most of the world, the reason why death metal was fading was "the rest of the world isn't extreme enough to handle our music!" (meanwhile, Deicide's "Legion" sells a million copies, and Pestilence and Morbid Angel have videos on MTV). The Norse kids looked at the metal scene at the time and said "most of the death metal scene has forgotten what death metal stood for, both ideologically and musically, and are making pop music with distortion and growled vocals." By correctly identifying the problem as internal, they were able to correct it, and kept the genre relevant for another five years.

Right now, you, and most everyone else who is either a fan of or a developer of shmups, are the American/British/Dutch/Swedish death metal scenes. "Hey, our games are failing cuz of 'dem cazuuls, aint nuttin' we can do about it but support indiscriminately!" Nope, doesn't work that way. There's a reason they were popular once, there's a reason they're not popular now, and it's not because the entire rest of the world changed.

[Squire Grooktook]

1. The games themselves are extremely high quality.

HAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, but Mushi and Eschatos and "high quality" doesn't compute.

Want proof? The same crowd that's willing to spend a ton of effort dissecting the Souls games isn't biting. Think about that for a second.

Souls players play shmups??? Did they dissect Crimzon Clover or DOJ?

Again, what's needed isn't quantity.

What's needed is quality and existence. The quality of 2 Degica ports doesn't have any bearing on what might come out of other developers.

Example: Say some other publisher sees that Degica *gasp* hasn't gone broke porting CCWI and Cave games. Say there's some interesting, high quality little doujin game in Japan or something just begging for a localization. Maybe now they'll take a chance and localize it.

And you don't think that Degica is going to look at previous sales figures when they choose which developers to work with in the future?

That's assuming that the worst ports sell best, instead of say CCWI.
It's also assuming patches won't happen, which they already have.
It's also assuming the developers next ports won't have less day 1 issues due to increased experience.
It's also assuming that a sub-par port invalidates a good game.

Oh ho, there's the cognitive dissonance! Let's keep pushing on that nerve a bit!

You have no idea who you're speaking to lol.

stuff that I didn't read lol

Well then, go ahead. Try releasing a shmup with your own superior design philosophy, and see if it sells well enough to justify the million or two dollars it costs to make a commercial game like the ones Cave did. You'll probably waste all your money and end up penniless, but if it works, you can be sure to spread the word to more developers so they can change the entire tide of the gaming industry.

To be fair, I do believe that mistakes were made with the genre that have made them more niche then they have to be. But shmups will always be niche (what should be strived for is not be super duper niche). And the change in the gaming industry can't be denied, it's noticeable in every genre.

[Obscura]

Souls players play shmups??? Did they dissect Crimzon Clover or DOJ?

You are (probably intentionally) missing the point. Try reading again, this time generalizing it to "all shmups after 1997".

You have no idea who you're speaking to lol.

I don't need to when your tells are this obvious.

Well then, go ahead. Try releasing a shmup with your own superior design philosophy, and see if it sells well enough to justify the million or two dollars it costs to make a commercial game like the ones Cave did. You'll probably waste all your money and end up penniless, but if it works, you can be sure to spread the word to more developers so they can change the entire tide of the gaming industry.

I don't need to -- Astebreed and Sine Mora already showed the way.

Before you reflexively yell "but Sine Mora sucks!", think about what those games have that make them popular. Hint -- it's more than just pretty graphics.

And the change in the gaming industry can't be denied, it's noticeable in every genre.

Yeah, the world is so casual that Sony bet on a From Software title being their system seller. That's so much more casual than the days when Nintendo and Sega were betting on Mario and Sonic!

[HenAi]

Obscura:

http://steamspy.com/app/283680 http://steamspy.com/app/285440
Astebreed and Crimzon Clover seem to have sold roughly equal amounts on Steam at least, actually.
http://steamspy.com/app/207040 Sine Mora did outsell both of them a few times over, though.

[Squire Grooktook]

Souls players play shmups??? Did they dissect Crimzon Clover or DOJ?

You are (probably intentionally) missing the point. Try reading again, this time generalizing it to "all shmups after 1997".

No, I just have no idea what you're talking about. Both games are relatively well regarded on this forum, and even my casual non-1cc'ing friends love the shit out of Eschatos (which is also very well regarded here).

I don't need to -- Astebreed and Sine Mora already showed the way.

IIRC the guys who made Sine Mora said it sold pretty terrible compared to what they expected, and they wouldn't be able to do another.

*SOUND OF RECORD STOPPING*

Obscura:

http://steamspy.com/app/283680 http://steamspy.com/app/285440
Astebreed and Crimzon Clover seem to have sold roughly equal amounts on Steam at least, actually.
http://steamspy.com/app/207040 Sine Mora did outsell both of them a few times over, though.

Hmmm, interesting. Didn't know that. Then again, the previous statement may still be true due to how much more the game may have cost to make. Edelweiss is like 3 guys isn't it?

Astebreed doing okay. Haven't heard that it did great, but somehow those guys are making games on consoles, dunno how. More stuff like that would be nice.

Yeah, the world is so casual that Sony bet on a From Software title being their system seller. That's so much more casual than the days when Nintendo and Sega were betting on Mario and Sonic!

Souls series is interesting. To be fair, it's really not that "hardcore", or at least doesn't demand you play that way. The "guantlet" or time between each checkpoint, isn't that long, even if its more noticeable compared to most console mainstream games. But, it is a game that allows you to (theoreticly) grind out challenges, has massive customization and content (which shmups obviously don't), a dearth of lore and atmospheric elements, etc. I'd say it's a game that's concessions to modern gaming have made it possible to succeed, and that it was helped out by a really strange fluke where Demon's Souls got some cult/memetic attention which built into journalist attention.

It's similar to Fire Emblem, another franchise which arguably has that "guantlet" nature, due to its 30 minute missions and lack of checkpoints, but concedes to casuals just enough to not be a deal breaker for them (ie optional modes without perma death, optional modes with mid-mission saving, optional modes where enemy soldiers are push overs, optional modes where your army is literally invincible, etc).

Shmups have had those concessions for a long time, in the form of free-play and whatnot, but because there's nothing outside the "real" gameplay (no world to explore like in Souls, no anime cutscenes to get caught up in like Fe, no stats to grind/cusotmize or content to find like in either game, etc.) they just don't have the mass market appeal. I think it might be possible to get a larger niche audience stabbing at 1cc's, enough to maybe get the genre more attention on Steam and whatnot, but they're never going to be as big as something like Souls or Fighting games or whatever.

[Obscura]

Obscura:

http://steamspy.com/app/283680 http://steamspy.com/app/285440
Astebreed and Crimzon Clover seem to have sold roughly equal amounts on Steam at least, actually.

One of them had a console release and sells for twice the price.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't need to when your tells are this obvious.

Quoting Warhammer 40k because I've been playing a game based on it is a sign of cognitive dissonance? Psychology sure has come a long way.

If you want the real reason I responded that way though, it's that I didn't feel like opening up a whole other convoluted can of worms (causals, game industry trends, etc.) because of a silly joke, now that you've already found a way to turn "I hope Degica doesn't fail" into a massive, 3 page conversation.

[zakk]

A page an a half of you two going back and forth about whatever the fuck you are both rustled about in a thread nominally about a Mushi port. Holy crap shut the fuck up.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^Can we both just turn on this guy instead.

[Momijitsuki]

Seriously, please stop. This is fucking obnoxious.

[Obscura]

No, I just have no idea what you're talking about. Both games are relatively well regarded on this forum, and even my casual non-1cc'ing friends love the shit out of Eschatos (which is also very well regarded here).

My point is this -- it's impossible to deny that there's a large "not-casual" audience enjoying the Souls games. The audience for shmups, casual or not, is not nearly as large. This does not match the "it's the casuals!" theory.

Astebreed doing okay. Haven't heard that it did great, but somehow those guys are making games on consoles, dunno how. More stuff like that would be nice.

Simple -- they made one critical decision about their priorities. The same one that was made on Sine Mora. The same one that Cave have been afraid to make for the past eleven years.

Souls series is interesting. To be fair, it's really not that "hardcore". The "guantlet" or time between each checkpoint, isn't that long, even if its more noticeable compared to most console mainstream games.

The gauntlet time is still a lot longer than in any of the most popular SNES games.

But, it is a game that allows you to (theoreticly) grind out challenges

Not in Dark Souls 2 (incidentally, a design decision I disagree with, but for other reasons). Also, you can't grind your way through 1-1 in Demon's.

Shmups have had those concessions for a long time, in the form of free-play and whatnot, but because there's nothing outside the "real" gameplay (no world to explore like in Souls, no anime cutscenes to get caught up in like Fe, no stats to grind or content to find like in either game, etc.) they just don't have the mass market appeal. I think it might be possible to get a larger niche audience stabbing at 1cc's, enough to maybe get the genre more attention on Steam and whatnot, but they're never going to be as big as something like Souls or Fighting games or whatever.

Fighting games actually do a very good job at illustrating the point I'm making. They've seen a massive resurgence, and loads of people play them, and it's a genre that demands effort and discipline. There's no grinding, and not a lot of content, and yet they have mass market appeal.

It has nothing to do with "casuals", and everything to do with the games themselves.

[Squire Grooktook]

No, I just have no idea what you're talking about. Both games are relatively well regarded on this forum, and even my casual non-1cc'ing friends love the shit out of Eschatos (which is also very well regarded here).

My point is this -- it's impossible to deny that there's a large "not-casual" audience enjoying the Souls games. The audience for shmups, casual or not, is not nearly as large. This does not match the "it's the casuals!" theory.

No, I'd say that there is a huge casual audience for Souls. Although Souls gauntlets do generate excitement, they're not long enough to be deal breakers for casuals, who can enjoy them along with the other aspects of the game like exploration, stat customization, the storyline etc. (none of which exist in the barebones shmup experience).

For example, I know a lot of people who have beaten Dark Souls many times, but can't or won't 1cc Contra on Nes. I mean shit, have you seen any of those lets players on Youtube try to beat it with the Konami Code? You could replace the soundtrack with the Benny Hill theme and it'd be perfect.

As for fighting games, their resurgance is more due to the advent of online play IMO. If it wasn't for that, they'd still be gathering dust outside of the very small minority who actually drive out to tournaments.

The gauntlet time is still a lot longer than in any of the most popular SNES games.

A lot SNES platformers and action games actually have an arcade structure. Even the Mickey Mouse games have score counters that are blanked on death.

[Shepardus]

Simple -- they made one critical decision about their priorities. The same one that was made on Sine Mora. The same one that Cave have been afraid to make for the past eleven years.

Care to elaborate on what that might be?