Cave & Capitalism

[Elaphe]

Honestly, I will download the "torrent" version, but if I couldn't find it, I would easily pay 50€ for it.

[Pasky]

Honestly, I will download the "torrent" version, but if I couldn't find it, I would easily pay 50€ for it.

This sort of stupidity is exactly why developers are skeptical of porting things to the PC platform. If you want to see more games get ported over to PC and come to steam, you need to show them there is a market, not pirate the game.

[donluca]

Honestly, I will download the "torrent" version, but if I couldn't find it, I would easily pay 50€ for it.

This sort of stupidity is exactly why developers are skeptical of porting things to the PC platform. If you want to see more games get ported over to PC and come to steam, you need to show them there is a market, not pirate the game.

I believe he meant to torrent it to check if the port is a quality one and then buy it if he's satisfied.
This is something I always do and saved me a lot of bucks on games who looked like great on trailer and reviews, but then were absolutely terrible when I played them myself.
I also do this because I'm on a Mac and I need to see if the game runs when wrapped in Wineskin or in a virtual machine, otherwise I'll just pass.

[Pasky]

Why would you need to do that with steam? It has a refund system:

http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/

Sounds like you just want games for free.

[ATTRACTS]

Honestly, I will download the "torrent" version, but if I couldn't find it, I would easily pay 50€ for it.

This sort of stupidity is exactly why developers are skeptical of porting things to the PC platform. If you want to see more games get ported over to PC and come to steam, you need to show them there is a market, not pirate the game.

I believe he meant to torrent it to check if the port is a quality one and then buy it if he's satisfied.
This is something I always do and saved me a lot of bucks on games who looked like great on trailer and reviews, but then were absolutely terrible when I played them myself.
I also do this because I'm on a Mac and I need to see if the game runs when wrapped in Wineskin or in a virtual machine, otherwise I'll just pass.

Nah, it sounds like he's just looking for the torrent. He'd pay for it only if he can't steal it. excuse: "I already bought it on _______".

[blag]

The mentality of pirating a sub £20 game in a niche genre astounds me. It's even worse when the developer is Cave and they're testing the PC market waters.

[jandrogo]

After spending the money I did on a J360, up to £60 on ports and so on I think it is fair to say I can certainly afford to spend LESS THAN 20 DOLLARS on the game and DLC and quite frankly anyone else with a full time job can as well.
I don't understand why people would spend so much time talking about wanting CAVE on steam and then gripe about a low price like this.

Posted a link to the Destructoid review on facebook and had a guy comment "I'll just wait for this to drop to $5-10 before I buy".

This type of race-to-the-bottom "I'll just buy it when it's on sale" mentality really pisses me off

The game is gonna be 20 bucks. 20 fucking bucks. Jesus christ it's nothing, it's even more nothing if you're gonna sink dozens of hours in it.

While I am happy about the Mushihimesama Steam release and the upcoming tentative ports, I have to say no way I am going to buy any Steam port at full price, even if it's only 20 bucks.

For people who still don't have the games is a great opportunity, but like a lot of forum users I already have all the x360 ports which I bought at release or nearly.
Later came cheaper platinum versions, overseas versions, Cave box collection, etc... Recent history tells me buying so early is a big mistake: in the near future will be able to buy all of them at reduced price plus extras, sure, it's just a matter of time

I mean at this point we are literally equating the value of a videogame that took tons of effort to develop to that of a fucking cup of starbucks

I don't see the point arguing with people telling openly won't buy the game at full price... in my personal opinion it's a matter of principles. Just remember Mushihimesama it's their fourth port over the original jamma game. Not much investment or effort here... Maybe it's time to step forward and do something creative.

[HydrogLox]

I mean at this point we are literally equating the value of a videogame that took tons of effort to develop to that of a fucking cup of starbucks

This goes back to the "game-consumer" vs "game-player" mentality discussed back here. A "consumer" doesn't care about supply cost - it's all about perceived value. In terms of "value of entertainment" I think the cost of a movie ticket for a 90 minute movie is a reasonable baseline - on average about US$ 8.20 in North America. Using that baseline a game that can be credit-fed in 20 minutes is worth about US$ 1.82. To get $20 worth out of a game they need to "feel entertained" for at least 3.7 hours - i.e. "they" need be "game-players" who are willing to approach the game on it's own terms and are willing to put the work into it. And there is the issue: if it feels like work then it is no longer entertaining; the concept that improved in-game performance is the (entertaining) reward for the effort of honing in-game skills is totally beyond "game-consumers" who simply want to be served the most recent fad for effortless consumption that somehow makes them feel good about themselves.

I think we can count on many users on this forum -including myself- who will purchase this game day one.

I think among Cave-enthusiasts there seems to be a general overestimation of the size of that audience - relative to the total number of Steam users I don't think that "many" Steam users will the purchasing Mushihimesama within the first week - "some" is probably the more appropriate adjective. And hopefully it isn't just a "few" because unless profit N is achieved before time T Mushihimesama will be Cave's first and last entry on Steam. So it may take some heavy "Steam gifting" at the premium price (i.e. sold licenses only count if they actually result in a profit for Cave) for Cave to stay interested in Steam releases.

"game-consumers" don't care if Cave releases anything else on Steam and not every "game-player" is interested in Cave's games.

[donluca]

Why would you need to do that with steam? It has a refund system:

http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/

Sounds like you just want games for free.

Remember that this is a feature that has been introduced recently and you can't "abuse" it or they won't accept the return.

If I want to try out 20 games and didn't like 15 of these, Steam will accept 5-6 returns in a short period of time but not many more, nor they will accept them in the long term if you keep asking for refunds.

I won't risk my hard earned money on a game which turns out to be bugged as hell or underwhelming honestly, nor I want to support lazy developers for a sub-optimal product.
The refund system is great for cases like the recent Batman game, but I won't risk seeing my refund request denied because I stumbled over indie games which were praised by the community but turned out to be terrible for me.

Then of course, you can have your own opinion and think my ways are unethical, that's 100% fine by me, I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm doing the right thing, especially because if I like the game, I buy the fucking game and not wait for it to go on sale or turn up in a humble bundle.

[brentsg]

I mean at this point we are literally equating the value of a videogame that took tons of effort to develop to that of a fucking cup of starbucks

This goes back to the "game-consumer" vs "game-player" mentality discussed back here. A "consumer" doesn't care about supply cost - it's all about perceived value. In terms of "value of entertainment" I think the cost of a movie ticket for a 90 minute movie is a reasonable baseline - on average about US$ 8.20 in North America. Using that baseline a game that can be credit-fed in 20 minutes is worth about US$ 1.82. To get $20 worth out of a game they need to "feel entertained" for at least 3.7 hours - i.e. "they" need be "game-players" who are willing to approach the game on it's own terms and are willing to put the work into it. And there is the issue: if it feels like work then it is no longer entertaining; the concept that improved in-game performance is the (entertaining) reward for the effort of honing in-game skills is totally beyond "game-consumers" who simply want to be served the most recent fad for effortless consumption that somehow makes them feel good about themselves.

I think we can count on many users on this forum -including myself- who will purchase this game day one.

I think among Cave-enthusiasts there seems to be a general overestimation of the size of that audience - relative to the total number of Steam users I don't think that "many" Steam users will the purchasing Mushihimesama within the first week - "some" is probably the more appropriate adjective. And hopefully it isn't just a "few" because unless profit N is achieved before time T Mushihimesama will be Cave's first and last entry on Steam. So it may take some heavy "Steam gifting" at the premium price (i.e. sold licenses only count if they actually result in a profit for Cave) for Cave to stay interested in Steam releases.

"game-consumers" don't care if Cave releases anything else on Steam and not every "game-player" is interested in Cave's games.

Lots of good points here. One thing I'd argue with is that game consumers don't NEED to feel good about themselves. They only need to feel entertained. I can sympathize, as if I'm fed a game that seems like work.. and I'm not familiar with the genre.. yuck.

Regarding this forum, unfortunately there is a lot of potential for non-buying. Take the total audience and you can perhaps strip out Steam DRM haters, PCB owners, Xbox 360 owners, etc, etc.. Some people will double-dip not many won't. Sadly, a lot of people have been spoiled by Steam sales and Humble Bundle as well. Waiting in this case is just a way to ensure no more content.

[BulletMagnet]

Recent history tells me buying so early is a big mistake: in the near future will be able to buy all of them at reduced price plus extras, sure, it's just a matter of time

Most everything ends up discounted down the road, yes, and getting it then will save you a few bucks, but it also sends the developer and publisher a message, namely "I will only buy your product when it's priced too low for you to see any notable return on it." Whether said message, and its possible ramifications down the road, is worth the savings is up to you. (For whatever it's worth I own the 360 port myself, and had the PS2 port before that.) That's not to say I've never waited for a sale to download something - far from it - but it's also worth considering whether you're dealing with a game/developer you've never heard of before, versus a proven commodity.

Just remember Mushihimesama it's their fourth port over the original jamma game. Not much investment or effort here... Maybe it's time to step forward and do something creative.

As much as I and everyone else here would love to see Cave cook up something from scratch, the middling successes and spectacular failures, financially speaking, of their recent efforts old and new, not to mention their attempted outreach to non-Japanese audiences, hasn't exactly left them either willing or able to attempt a heck of a lot outside of the smartphone realm. Yeah, another Mushi port isn't exactly a revelation, especially for those of us who have already played it, but it does show that they're still attempting to both stick to shooters and reach out to the West, and in my eyes those decisions are good news for the likes of us; hopefully there's at least a bit of positive reinforcement in the cards for them.

I'm not going to criticize anyone who says "I already own this, and don't have much reason to buy it again", as that vantage point is sensible as far as it goes, but at the same time be sure to realize that your decision sends ripples out far beyond the boundaries of your wallet, and be ready to accept what happens if/when enough people in similar circumstances reach the same conclusion.

[Eaglet]

Well said BulletMagnet.
The asking price is nothing and if you care for the genre in the slightest you will support. It's as simple as that.
While it pains me to say it, we as an ultra-niche community don't really have any ability whatsoever to make any demands of what's released to us when the quality of what's being released is acceptable. Or as in this case fuckin' excellent.
Degica have gone out on a limb to show a very conservative traditional Japanese small scale developer that there is a market for their products here in the West. If that's what you want them to perceive you will support. Simple as that.

[Obscura]

I mean at this point we are literally equating the value of a videogame that took tons of effort to develop to that of a fucking cup of starbucks

This goes back to the "game-consumer" vs "game-player" mentality discussed back here. A "consumer" doesn't care about supply cost - it's all about perceived value. In terms of "value of entertainment" I think the cost of a movie ticket for a 90 minute movie is a reasonable baseline - on average about US$ 8.20 in North America. Using that baseline a game that can be credit-fed in 20 minutes is worth about US$ 1.82. To get $20 worth out of a game they need to "feel entertained" for at least 3.7 hours - i.e. "they" need be "game-players" who are willing to approach the game on it's own terms and are willing to put the work into it. And there is the issue: if it feels like work then it is no longer entertaining; the concept that improved in-game performance is the (entertaining) reward for the effort of honing in-game skills is totally beyond "game-consumers" who simply want to be served the most recent fad for effortless consumption that somehow makes them feel good about themselves.

This is all grandstanding nonsense. Look at how popular games like LoL and DotA 2 are; regardless of whether you think they're good or not, there's no denying that they take a ton of work to actually be competent at.

[evil_ash_xero]

Come on...no one HERE should pirate this game. It's just bad form.

I'm probably not going to buy it, because I honestly don't like PC gaming, much at all. And I have bought it twice, on the 360.
Also, I'm in a financial predicament.
Maybe at a later date.

Anyone who only has the PS2 version, should REALLY get this one. It looks so much better (the game is really beautiful). And the slowdown is present.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm probably not going to buy it, because I honestly don't like PC gaming, much at all.

This might be off topic, but if you're into quality, you're probably going to have to start liking it pretty soon. The roster of worthwhile games on consoles grows smaller and smaller with each generation. This is coming from someone who never touched a PC till 2007, and didn't own one till 2010.

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm probably not going to buy it, because I honestly don't like PC gaming, much at all.

This might be off topic, but if you're into quality, you're probably going to have to start liking it pretty soon. The roster of worthwhile games on consoles grows smaller and smaller with each generation. This is coming from someone who never touched a PC till 2007, and didn't own one till 2010.

Maybe. I only really play Japanese games (about 95 percent of the time). And they don't support PCs, as much as the rest of the world (yet).

I mean, I do have stuff like Crimzon Clover. But if it's on console, I tend to get it there.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm probably not going to buy it, because I honestly don't like PC gaming, much at all.

This might be off topic, but if you're into quality, you're probably going to have to start liking it pretty soon. The roster of worthwhile games on consoles grows smaller and smaller with each generation. This is coming from someone who never touched a PC till 2007, and didn't own one till 2010.

Maybe. I only really play Japanese games (about 95 percent of the time). And they don't support PCs, as much as the rest of the world (yet).

I do too, and PC is waaaaaaaay better for jp stuff then consoles right now IMO.

A big portion of my most played Steam games are all Japanese. Consoles (except Wii U) are the realm of big budget triple AAA western movie games, PC is where you play good old games on emulators and good new games on Steam and GOG.

Also PC now has Mecha Ritz and Eschatos. Those two alone make it a superior shmup platform then every console combined.

[monouchi]

They did use testers long before launch and have fixed loads of bugs, even quite severe graphical bugs that occured on some set ups. Yes the polish phase could have been longer with a later release date but as earlier stated, its almost impossible to prepare for the wide variation of PC set ups.

Even when releasing a tripple-A game we met some strange PC bugs only after release. And then I am sure that we had a lot longer bug testing phase ( years) and a ton more bug testers than Degica has.
Sure, no excuse to release a game with bugs, but the next release will prolly go a lot smoother.

[Blinge]

^ don't you read the thread before posting?

This needs saying again:

CAVE are on a new platform, PC development is hell due to all the different configurations. Contrary to popular belief CAVE are not sitting on a test farm of 100's of strange configs. Then you have a plephoria of Windows versions to cater for.

The trouble with PCs is that people install software which you have no control over.

You cannot force them to update their drivers or OS.

No matter how long you keep it in beta you have to step into the water at some point. The release is done, now try to reproduce issues and report them here. Degica are here, they watch they listen...

Sure report issues, but it doesn't hurt to be polite now does it?

[Blinge]

Seen some negative reviews from shmupsfarmers on the steam page.
Why post them? It's pretty damaging to degica/cave. I'd hope once the issues are fixed that you'll all take them down.

[Zaarock]

All of the negative reviews list the buggy launch version as the reason and recommend potential buyers wait until various problems are fixed. What's wrong with that? 5% negative reviews isn't much and none of them bash the game itself.

[rtw]

Seen some negative reviews from shmupsfarmers on the steam page.

What are shmupsfarmers ?

[ZacharyB]

You know, Rob's pronounciation of "forum" in his old funny videos. "Shmupfarmers" = "shmups forum-[go]ers"

[Shepardus]

I don't see what's wrong with posting a negative review if that's what you think of the game and its release, any more than, say, posting a positive review of a game nobody else likes. Nobody here is morally obligated to like the game and sing its praises (except those working for Degica I guess), even if most do. That's what gives the review system any meaning in the first place; if the game is good then the positive reviews will outweigh the negative ones without any need for filtering out negative reviews. It also serves as feedback to the developers, letting them know what they should improve on.

[Opus131]

I think the problem is that some people appear to be offended personally if a game doesn't meet their perfect expectation, and their moral indignation appears to override every other consideration. We are not talking about a multi-billion dollar company here and let's not forget that the goal is to eventually get all Cave games on Steam, something which hinges entirely on how successful this and future releases will be. To hinder the success of their first release, and thus reduce the possibility for future releases, and that only to satisfy some personal grievance seems kinda petty and nearsighted. At least give them time to release a couple of patches to iron out some of those kinks.

[Opus131]

Seen some negative reviews from shmupsfarmers on the steam page.

What are shmupsfarmers ?

I'm assuming he means people from this forum.

[nasty_wolverine]

i guess be honest in your reviews?

if you like the game, give a positive, if you dont a negative saying why. negative reviews for bugs is fine i guess, as long as you change it when they do fix it.

[Zaarock]

I think the problem is that some people appear to be offended personally if a game doesn't meet their perfect expectation, and their moral indignation appears to override every other consideration. We are not talking about a multi-billion dollar company here and let's not forget that the goal is to eventually get all Cave games on Steam, something which hinges entirely on how successful this and future releases will be. To hinder the success of their first release, and thus reduce the possibility for future releases, and that only to satisfy some personal grievance seems kinda petty and nearsighted. At least give them time to release a couple of patches to iron out some of those kinks.

The game crashing in the title screen for a large portion of players is not a minor problem. Would you recommend a game to your friends if it might not work for them at all in its current state? Surely it's good that people can see a problem like this problem if browsing through reviews. Said bug seems to be fixed in the newest patch which is great.

[Squire Grooktook]

How about a compromise:

Write a "recommended" review, describing all the reasons the game is good etc. but put a bit warning at the very top of the review like this:

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// WARNING: THIS GAME HAS SOME TECHNICAL ISSUES, INCLUDING CRASHING ON START UP FOR SOME USERS. A PATCH IS CURRENTLY IN THE WORKS THOUGH //
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
also a huge battleship is approaching fast.

[Blinge]

i guess be honest in your reviews?

if you like the game, give a positive, if you dont a negative saying why. negative reviews for bugs is fine i guess, as long as you change it when they do fix it.

My question was more about motive and purpose.
Any negative points, any red on that page could dissuade potential buyers, toe dippers, whatever. I thought people wanted to support their beloved cave?