Thunderforce III - Thunder Spirits

[Fenrir]

Yesterday evening I was playing idly with Thunder Spirits, the game which supposedly is the (unofficial?) SFC conversion of Thunderforce III, one of those games that were terribly envied by the Nintendo users (and I don't know why since the SFC had wideloads of wonderful shmups).
While I was blasting across the third level I recalled an article on Super Play (you know, the witty UK Nintendo mag) where they said that Thunder Spirits was slower, chunkier, goofier and with a poorer soundtrack (whahahah - it's a MD you're talking about!) if compared to Thunderforce III. Unluckily I only own Thunderforce IV as I bought a MD only way later, when I had money (and when I bought the SNES I thought it was forbidden to have both consoles, go figure ).
So I gave a try at Thunderforce III and geez, I think it's shallow if compared to Thunder Spirits. The only thing that TS lacks is the sense of hitting the enemy - the lasers just zip past across the enemies and they go boom - in a sadder way than Gradius. And I didn't find TS all that similar to TFIII.
I'm sure that many of you have got both and played extensively both so you'll have a more definite opinion. How do you compare them two?

[nZero]

Thunder Spirits is a half-assed conversion (slowdown galore, cripes) of Thunder Force AC to the SuperFami/SuperNES. Thunder Force AC is a sort of a remake of Thunder Force III as an arcade game rather than a console hori shooter. So, yeah, that many different hardware systems and game remakes apart, they shouldn't seem so similar. Honestly I've played and love TFAC to the point where I find Thunder Spirits an inadequate port and TFIII to be overly easy and not very well paced. Of course, Lightening Force (U.S. TFIV) failed to click with me so I'm a minority among fans of the series in my opinions.

[Fenrir]

Yeah, the slowdown is a major issue there but it's good when the screen gets overloaded with bullets/lasers/shots. Some games are considered classics because they slow down in certain conditions, letting you see what happens (one above all: Twinkle Star Sprites - the DC conversion lets you choose between the NEOGEO version (aka - the slowdown-ridden one) or the DC, smooth version.)
This says it all. I don't find the slow parts in TS too annoying.
I didn't know about that Thunderforce AC thing - that's probably why Thunder Spirits has more graphical effects than TFIII. And, to say it all, I'm not a big fan of Thunderforce IV as well, but I always avoid to say it because I don't want to be flamed to death
I even prefer Undeadline to TFIV. Me heathen.

[Rob]

Yeah, the slowdown is a major issue there but it's good when the screen gets overloaded with bullets/lasers/shots.

This isn't DDP. It looks like you're wanting your opinion backed up, but that's just not going to happen. The game is a choppy mess. Worse in every way, except for the added lake in Hydra. Nice touch.

[it290]

Honestly I've played and love TFAC to the point where I find Thunder Spirits an inadequate port and TFIII to be overly easy and not very well paced.

TFIII is really easy on normal mode, but Mania mode is definitely a challenge. I find most Technosoft shooters to be at their best in Mania- I'd recommend giving it a try if you haven't already.

[Specineff]

Bah. Back in 1994 I was able to 1 life it in Mania. Yes. Those were the days.

[Neon]

(and I don't know why since the SFC had wideloads of wonderful shmups).

They're more or less all shit. 2nd worst shooter console next to Neo Geo.

they said that Thunder Spirits was slower, chunkier, goofier and with a poorer soundtrack (whahahah - it's a MD you're talking about!)

It seems there are some fanboyism issues going on here. Genesis/MD is capable of great things with its sound, check out Devil Crash or anything Technosoft really.

[BrianC]

(and I don't know why since the SFC had wideloads of wonderful shmups).

They're more or less all shit. 2nd worst shooter console next to Neo Geo.

Well, I wouldn't say that SNES has wideloads of shmups (though I think it still has a decent amount), but I definatly don't argee with all of them being crap. The SNES was better with slower paced shmups like R-Type 3 or Pop 'n Twinbee. For the most part games like Raiden Trad crashed and burned on the system. When the games were actually designed with the hardware limitations in mind, they turned out much better.

Also, I disagree with either the SNES or the NeoGeo being anywhere near the worst shooter console. What about the N64 with it's only shmups being the Dezemon shmup creator, a Space Invaders remake, and Star Soldier Vanishing Earth? Gamecube only has Chaos Field, an odd port of Ikaruga, the Star Soldier remake (also on PS2), and Shikigami no Shiro 2 (also on Xbox, PS2, PC, and DC). SEGA Master System only had a handful of shmups, though it does have the awesome Power Strike II and an odd, but good port of Aleste. PC-FX only has one shmup and I heard it's only decent. The Atari Jaguar has the awesome Tempest 2000 (debatable if it's a shmup), but very little else besides a port of Raiden (which I heard mixed ratings of). There's also that short lived Nuon thing where the only game I think it has remotely resembling a shmup was Tempest 3000.

they said that Thunder Spirits was slower, chunkier, goofier and with a poorer soundtrack (whahahah - it's a MD you're talking about!)

It seems there are some fanboyism issues going on here. Genesis/MD is capable of great things with its sound, check out Devil Crash or anything Technosoft really.

I agree that the Genesis has some great sound, especially in reguards to the Thunder Force games. In fact, Thunder Force III has one of the best soundtracks on the system, which IMO, trumps the SNES Thunder Spirits soundtrack (which IMO, could and should have been much better). Also check out Burning Force, Revenge of Shinobi, Rocket Knight Adventures, Streets of Rage 2, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mega Turrican, Truxton, Fire Shark, Sonic the Hedgehog 2, and many others for excellent examples of great sound from the Genesis.

[Alpolio]

I've got access to both and Thunderforce III is a whole lot better than Thunder Spirits. TS is more of a port of TFAC than a port of TFIII which is a strike against it IMO. TFAC doesn't have the level select at the start of the game and I love starting off on the water planet Seiren. That level select is one of the defining features of TFIII and why they choose to leave it off of TFAC is beyond me. And there seems to be more.... I don't know.... ooomp?... in TFIII's audio. TFIII's bgm & sound effects just jumps out at you more.

Even if I don't strike against TS for being a port of TFAC, it is still a very sorry port. TS has slowdown out the wazoo and it gets even worse with the autofire turned on. Hmmm... Could that be why it defaults with the autofire off? And this really throws the gameplay. Everytime your weapon fires, the screen jerks. Shmups are supposed to be fast paced, and having a jittery screen because of your own cannon fire is totally unacceptable.

And the one thing that the SNES/SFC should excel on, they messed up. The audio is even worse in TS than it is in TFAC -- it's almost like you're listening to a poorly ripped MP3 of the arcade tracks -- everything's washed out. Maybe that's what they did.... rip the arcade tracks to tightly compressed sound bites. It would explain a lot.

So all in all, TFIII is more polished than TS thus making it a lot more entertaining. Crank up the game level to mania and it's as much fun as the latest Cave shooters. Which is why TFIII always makes my top 10 lists.

Slowdown was a common problem that plagued early SNES/SFC games. The SNES/SFC ain't known for it's shoot 'em ups primarily because about 90% of them have slowdown issues.

[M0nk3y]

(and I don't know why since the SFC had wideloads of wonderful shmups).

They're more or less all shit. 2nd worst shooter console next to Neo Geo.

I too have to disagree with you there. The Neo may not have the quantity of shmuppery that graced the MD or PCE, but what it does have is quality. Out of the 14 Neo shmups, I'd say that only Ghost Pilots is real shit. The rest range from good, Sonic Wings 2/3, to uber amazing: BlazingStar/Pulstar. And no, I've never played the CD-exclusive Ironclad.

Anyhow I love TF 3 & 4. Two of the best MD shmups. I've only had a short go on TS, but I really couldn't get in to it.

[Alpolio]

Honestly I've played and love TFAC to the point where I find Thunder Spirits an inadequate port and TFIII to be overly easy and not very well paced.

TFIII is really easy on normal mode, but Mania mode is definitely a challenge. I find most Technosoft shooters to be at their best in Mania- I'd recommend giving it a try if you haven't already.

You know, I was thinking that a lot of these people probably don't know how to access the options menu. The Options should be listed on the title screen, because the game is a lot more fun on Mania mode. And it also gives you access to the autofire on the SNES/SFC copy. But for some stupid reason, the developers saw fit to hide it.

For the Genesis/MD: At the title screen, hold A + B + C, then press Start.

For the SNES/SFC: At the title screen, hold Select then press Start.

[Fenrir]

They're more or less all shit. 2nd worst shooter console next to Neo Geo.

Well, of course this is just your opinion, and as long as I respect it, I don't agree. Apart from the other answer you received, which is perfectly legitimate, I bought a lot of shooters in my SNES life and I found some excellent ones and many great ones - I don't have to list them of course because we all know what I'm talking about. They surely outnumber the shmups I had fun with on the MD, Nes, MS and so on. I think it's the second best shmup console after PCE and its spawn. Speaking of 8-16 bit of course. From 32 bit on it's all another matter. But, as far as it goes, even mine is a completely personal opinion and can differ from others.

It seems there are some fanboyism issues going on here. Genesis/MD is capable of great things with its sound, check out Devil Crash or anything Technosoft really.

What can't differ is this one. I'm 30 years old, mate, and I've been exposed to this debate for like 13 years - on magazines, with friends, on teh intr@net - and it seems like it's got no end. You can tell me that there are some fantastic soundtracks on the MD (and I agree - I'm not a fanboy fyi, I don't really care if a console is from Sega or from Nintendo or from Commodore - my fave 16b console is SNES, my fave 128 is DC and I despise the N64), but what I was implying is that the sound chips on the MD are indeed worse than the ones of SNES. Some people managed to exploit them quite well, but the peaks of a MD can't really compete with the peaks of a SNES. The MD worked fairly bad with TVs too, as it tended to have "shrieky" musics; on the NOMAD or via headphones it was confortably better... one over all, the "QUACKQUACKQUACK" Ken shouted when performing an Hadouken. It's like the 100th time I start a discussion about this so let's better skip this one before it gets out of hand. But I've got a mandatory "I love MD" before leaving the hall.

Back to TS, I think they made a bad mistake messing up with the max laser. I've been noticing that of course the sprite is too big, expecially when the shooting pods are added. It's so big that the sprites on screen start flickering, the game slows down and the shoot FX is a bit too high, disturbing the BGM itself as it goes. When you shoot with other kinds of weapons the game is considerably smoother. Anyway, nearly the 99% of people think that TS is no match with TFIII, even though there are better shooters on other 16 bit systems than the TF saga. At the time TFIV came out, many said that it was the non plus ultra SHMUP on any console, maybe because the MD was disperately craving for something to fight the SNES that was eating all the cake, month after month. It's not a case that we're talking about a MD exclusive. By the way, my copy of Spriggan of course was laughing its arse off

[Ceph]

(and I don't know why since the SFC had wideloads of wonderful shmups).

They're more or less all shit. 2nd worst shooter console next to Neo Geo.

Do you sometimes listen to yourself talking?

[Neon]

@ BrianC - more or less agree with you on all points.

(and I don't know why since the SFC had wideloads of wonderful shmups).

They're more or less all shit. 2nd worst shooter console next to Neo Geo.

Do you sometimes listen to yourself talking?

@ Fenrir: I don't mind if people's opinions differ from mine.

@ both of ya: Come on man. http://www.classicgaming.com/shmups/xen ... /snes.html

I know Rob likes Bio Metal and Space Megaforce has a great soundtrack (but it's Compile, ugh) but that's about all there is to it. Genesis has Toaplan games like V-V, Fire Shark, and they're better than all those. Saying people liked TFIV just because the Genesis totally sucked next to SNES just smacks of bias, if not fanboyism, sorry. Have to agree SNES has better sound and graphics, though it's a matter of taste and much moreso the quality of the composition.

SNES is a great console for platformers and RPG's - not shooters.

[Marc]

SNES is a great console for platformers and RPG's - not shooters.

Not shooters? Gradius III and U.N. Squadron? R-Type III? The Parodius series? Maybe not verts, probably agree with you there, but the SFC had an awsome line up of hori's - most of which stayed exclusive 'till the Saturn and PS.

[Neon]

Gradius 3 - better on PS deuce

UN Squadron - Capcom soundtrack aside, really meh. The whole shop thing for one.

R type 3 - There are better hori's in the world.

Parodius is of course far better on PS/SS.

Why bother with such mediocrities/worse ports when SNES has Yoshi's Island, Hoshi no Kirby 3, Do re mi Fantasy, Ganbare Goemon IV...

Though we're really getting off topic now. The point of the original post: Does Thunder Spirits suck? Answer: Yes, exponentially so. Pick up TF Goldpack 2 on Saturn if you must play AC.

[ROBOTRON]

The Genesis version of TF3 is far superior to SNES...even the soundtrack is better.

[Alpolio]

SNES is a great console for platformers and RPG's - not shooters.

Yeah, I'm in total agreement. Back in 1992, the slowdown and flicker in Thunder Spirits, Gradius III, Super R-Type, ect, ect, ect, was a complete turn off to me when I was shopping for a 16-bitter. And things like this review (link), from a 1992 Buyers Guide, didn't help matters either. Not all SNES shooters are bad, but it seems like for each good SNES shooter, I can name 5 Genesis shooters that are better in every respect.

If the SNES/SFC developers had of spent as much time & money on shmups as they did on Zelda & Donkey Kong Country..... well, dare to dream.

[Ceph]

next to Neo Geo.

Claiming that SNES shmups are "all more or less all shit" is obviously is a dumb thing to say, but I actually meant the other part of your statement.
You say Neo Geo is the worst console there is for shmups. I'd recommend watching Kiken's Neo Geo shooter special, you may find it enlightening.

What is more, a few days ago you stated you could "count the number of good Dreamcast games on one hand".

This and the above left the impression that sometimes you say (or type) things without - how can I put it without being offensive - thinking about it very much indeed.

PS. N64 and Master System, now those are bad consoles for shmups.

PPS. Macross Scrambled Valkyrie is a great SNES shooter, try it sometime, chances are you'll like it. And by the way, Super Aleste and R-Type III, Axelay, 100% Cotton, Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius and Phalanx aren't half bad, either.

[CIT]

PS. N64 and Master System, now those are bad consoles for shmups.

No way dude, Master System had some sweet shmups back in the day. Power Strike (Aleste) and Power Strike II, Fantasy Zone, etc.

_____________________

Parodius is of course far better on PS/SS.

Actually, it's 100% the same game, but with load times, so I think SNES is better. Gokujo and Jikkyou are better on the 32 Bit systems though.

[captain ahar]

PS. N64 and Master System, now those are bad consoles for shmups.

No way dude, Master System had some sweet shmups back in the day. Power Strike (Aleste) and Power Strike II, Fantasy Zone, etc.

for real, though.

as far as the SNES goes, i can think of 10 shmups off the top of my head that are worth playing, 5 oof those worth playing through multiple times.

[CIT]

Since I'm big on lists, here's my SFC shooter shortlist just for the hell of it :

- Axelay
- Cosmogang The Video
- Cotton 100%
- Gokujou Parodius
- Gradius III
- Jikkyou Oshaber Parodius
- Macross Scramble Valkyre
- Parodius da!
- Pop'n Twinbee
- R-Type III
- Spriggan Powered (yes, yes, I know most people hate it, but I actually think it's really cool...)
- Super Aleste <--- Best SFC shooter! Almost no slowdown! Compile = Gods!!!


Others of interest, but non-essential:

- Area 88
- Bio Metal
- Darius Twin
- Darius Force
- Flying Hero
- Phalanx
- Sonic Wings
- Super E.D.F
- Thunder Spirits

[llabnip]

Since I'm big on lists, here's my SFC shooter shortlist just for the hell of it :

I love my SFC... but more for RPGs and Platform games. I wouldn't go so far as to call the shooter games 'shit' since I think the following are essential SFC games:

- Axelay
- Macross Scramble Valkyre
- Pop'n Twinbee
- Super Aleste
- R-Type III

And I really like :

- Phalanx
- Super Earth Defense Force
- Un Squadron

Eight shooters ... I guess I like the SFC for shooters after all! I still think the MD is far superior for shooters... Toaplan rocks!

FYI... Seven Force - your Sale/Trade signature still points to the old forums. Not sure if that will eventually map over or if you should change it.

And to Bloodflowers and/or anyone else that helped get the forums back up and running - THANKS! It's normally a thankless and tiring task to keep things like this up and running. You should ask for some paypal donations to help cover upkeep costs, domain registration, etc. I'd support the effort.

[Fenrir]

- Super Aleste <--- Best SFC shooter! Almost no slowdown! Compile = Gods!!!

And, correct me if I'm wrong, Super Aleste was the first SHMUP on the SNES PAL, right? (even though I own the US one) It came out after the first wave of super soccer super tennis super this and super that. Even if it isn't true, no problem anyway since I find it one of the best SMUPs available on the system. Ingenious and with great graphics.

ps don't forget that masterpiece that is SWIV.

Fact is that there have been so many incredible RPGs on the SNES that the console came out of excellence for that, and many good genres were overshadowed.

[zinger]

Come on, Cotton 100%??? There are some awesome background graphics in this game, but aside that there's really nothing good about it. I found Super Aleste to be too slow-paced and simply lacking good ideas, looks great too though.

I guess it depends on how picky you are, I just can't play any of the SFC shooters. I'm kinda sick of non-arcade shooters in general, although there's still a bunch of interesting ones (Gynoug and Gleylancer being my favourites).

[CIT]

FYI... Seven Force - your Sale/Trade signature still points to the old forums. Not sure if that will eventually map over or if you should change it.

Ah, yes, thanks. Actually the thread is out-of-date anyway, I'll put up some new stuff I want to sell, later this week, though.

And of course you're right about the MD being the overall better shooter system.

[CIT]

And, correct me if I'm wrong, Super Aleste was the first SHMUP on the SNES PAL, right? (even though I own the US one) It came out after the first wave of super soccer super tennis super this and super that. Even if it isn't true, no problem anyway since I find it one of the best SMUPs available on the system. Ingenious and with great graphics.

Hmm, I'm not sure actually, since I basically just bought imports and didn't keep track of the PAL market that much. It was definitely one of the earliest SFC shooters though. Super R-Type and Gradius III were really early too though.

Actually Super Aleste was the first SFC shooter I owned. After several month of deliberation (and being tempted by Gradius III many times), I bought the Japanese version of Super Aleste. And I didn't regret it!

Fact is that there have been so many incredible RPGs on the SNES that the console came out of excellence for that, and many good genres were overshadowed.

Yes, I absolutely agree! SFC is actually a really good arcade style gameplay system. Maybe the shooters have some problems because of the underpowered processor, but there's some really fine action games. Ninja Warriors, Hagane, Assault Suits Valken, Wild Guns, Kiki Kaikai (Pocky & Rocky), Goemon, etc, etc.

[Neon]

next to Neo Geo.

Claiming that SNES shmups are "all more or less all shit" is obviously is a dumb thing to say, but I actually meant the other part of your statement.
You say Neo Geo is the worst console there is for shmups. I'd recommend watching Kiken's Neo Geo shooter special, you may find it enlightening.

What is more, a few days ago you stated you could "count the number of good Dreamcast games on one hand".

This and the above left the impression that sometimes you say (or type) things without - how can I put it without being offensive - thinking about it very much indeed.

PS. N64 and Master System, now those are bad consoles for shmups.

PPS. Macross Scrambled Valkyrie is a great SNES shooter, try it sometime, chances are you'll like it. And by the way, Super Aleste and R-Type III, Axelay, 100% Cotton, Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius and Phalanx aren't half bad, either.

N64 and Master system worse? Yeah, probably. I don't really care for console wars, I don't spend too much time thinking about this crap.

Anyways, don't be so ridiculous. I wouldn't make a sweeping statement like that unless I had tried every SNES/NG shooter. Macross is terrible. May I recommend a real hori like G. Darius or Border Down.

Good Dreamcast exclusive games (note that I judge games by gameplay and not graphics): Doki Doki Idol Star Seeker, Super Street Fighter II X (PS/SS/GBA don't count here, yes I know you found the GBA one decent BrianC, I didn't), Border Down, Mars Matrix, the Gigawings, and possibly Under Defeat. I guess I do have a few extra fingers

[Rob]

Come on, Cotton 100%??? There are some awesome background graphics in this game, but aside that there's really nothing good about it. I found Super Aleste to be too slow-paced and simply lacking good ideas, looks great too though.

Thanks for posting this. Sometimes I think no one else is put off by endlessly boring shooters. Add: POP N TWINBEE. Neat cartoon graphics don't make this or any other unchallenging, repetitive 60+ minute chore worth playing. Really.

[captain ahar]

yeah cotton 100% was broken. paralax layers belong in the background.