Ikaruga is actually a really good game

[Squire Grooktook]

Both games have enjoyable atmosphere and style, and the endings are part of that. However this thread is mostly about the gameplay. Specifically some of the poorly thought out arguments against it.

Thinking more about what Geist said, I feel like the "Uhhhhh" moments are present in Dodonpachi too. The difference is that Dodonpachi outright kills your chain where Ikaruga allows you to maintain it. To me, the former would be a bigger "uhhhh" moment, and criticizing Ika on that front is more a case of being made that it's too forgiving, rather then too restrictive.

[Obscura]

Given the direction this thread is going, why are more of you not playing Raiden III, the game where the entire score system IS literally "speedkill everything as fast as you can"?

[xxx1993]

People have said Radiant Silvergun is one of the longest shmups ever created. But I digress, there are longer games out there. As I said, now that I'm fully powered up, it takes an hour to beat. And I care about the ending. I'd rather have an ending where the world is saved rather than one where everyone is doomed to repeat the same mistake over and over again.

I don't think Saturn mode can be beaten in under an hour unless you're madly skilled. RSG is one of the longest shmups ever, the average is about 25 minutes.

No-one gives a shit about the ending, it has absolutely no impact on the game whatsoever (and personally I prefer a bleak alternative to the same old fanfare standards.)

How is the game long if you're overpowered and you maxed out your credits/lives?

[Squire Grooktook]

People have said Radiant Silvergun is one of the longest shmups ever created. But I digress, there are longer games out there. As I said, now that I'm fully powered up, it takes an hour to beat. And I care about the ending. I'd rather have an ending where the world is saved rather than one where everyone is doomed to repeat the same mistake over and over again.

I don't think Saturn mode can be beaten in under an hour unless you're madly skilled. RSG is one of the longest shmups ever, the average is about 25 minutes.

No-one gives a shit about the ending, it has absolutely no impact on the game whatsoever (and personally I prefer a bleak alternative to the same old fanfare standards.)

How is the game long if you're overpowered and you maxed out your credits/lives?

???

Radiant Silvergun is more then hour long on those conditions.

Most other shmups are under 25 minutes.

Pretty clear cut.

[Shepardus]

How is the game long if you're overpowered and you maxed out your credits/lives?

How does the number of credits you can feed affect the length of a game? Credit feed and jack up your power in any shmup and it's going to be "short," but if you actually play it with the tension it was meant to be played with then that short length will actually make sense, and Radiant Silvergun is relatively long, with maybe its shorter path in arcade mode being average length.

[pegboy]

This thread really makes me want to play Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun. I feel really bad for owning both of these games and never putting any real time into them.

[juonryu2nd]

I think Hellsinker is a game that handled its length well with Short Mission.

[Skykid]

People have said Radiant Silvergun is one of the longest shmups ever created. But I digress, there are longer games out there. As I said, now that I'm fully powered up, it takes an hour to beat. And I care about the ending. I'd rather have an ending where the world is saved rather than one where everyone is doomed to repeat the same mistake over and over again.

I don't think Saturn mode can be beaten in under an hour unless you're madly skilled. RSG is one of the longest shmups ever, the average is about 25 minutes.

No-one gives a shit about the ending, it has absolutely no impact on the game whatsoever (and personally I prefer a bleak alternative to the same old fanfare standards.)

How is the game long if you're overpowered and you maxed out your credits/lives?

I'm starting to wonder if you've even played it.

[Strikers1945guy]

Don't you all feel a shmup even close to an hour in length is just too much? Since we are on the topic. I'm not counting loops or extended modes here, just your general normal run length to beat the game once.

Loops are great and all seriously, and I prefer those to shmups that just drag on forever. If the 1st loop is only 20 minutes I can credit feed in the beginning to learn some later stages pretty well that will help me clear it faster and prepare me for the next loop. A game that's 45 minutes for a single clear is just boring to sit there and trudge through.

Pretty sure Varth is guilty of this too and ALMOST Pink Sweets >_>

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm not here to defend Radiant Silvergun, but...

Don't you all feel a shmup even close to an hour in length is just too much? ...A game that's 45 minutes for a single clear is just boring to sit there and trudge through.

When it's done well, I find it the opposite of boring. There's something about keeping tension and mental engagement so high for so long, that really scrambles your nerves and causes a massive feeling of catharsis when you finish. I haven't played through RSG, but I have gotten that feeling from Metal Slug 3 and Gradius V.

Obviously there's a reason for the whole standard length, but something challenging norms every now and then isn't a bad thing.


Anyway back on topic: You still haven't answered my question Strikers1945guy. Have you cleared Ika? And if so, how on earth did playing "dot eater" make the game easier, considering it means you have 30x as much shit flying around on screen?

[ACSeraph]

Anyway back on topic: You still haven't answered my question Strikers1945guy. Have you cleared Ika? And if so, how on earth did playing "dot eater" make the game easier, considering it means you have 30x as much shit flying around on screen?

So, while I havent cleared it I actually had a lot more success with Dot Eater than normal play. It requires some really precise execution but the lack of suicide bullets allows for much more straightforward memorization. Certain parts of the game are definitely easier this way. I assume the easiest way to clear would be to play passively for the most part and only shoot on parts that are especially hard to Dot Eat your way through.

[Squire Grooktook]

Anyway back on topic: You still haven't answered my question Strikers1945guy. Have you cleared Ika? And if so, how on earth did playing "dot eater" make the game easier, considering it means you have 30x as much shit flying around on screen?

So, while I havent cleared it I actually had a lot more success with Dot Eater than normal play. It requires some really precise execution but the lack of suicide bullets allows for much more straightforward memorization. Certain parts of the game are definitely easier this way. I assume the easiest way to clear would be to play passively for the most part and only shoot on parts that are especially hard to Dot Eat your way through.

How far did you play into the game this way?

First stage, maybe second, I can see.

But everything on stage 3 will be worse, and the infamous "flower" on stage 4 is an overwhelmingly clusterfuck without shooting, whereas the strategy for beating it normally is an extremely simple and consistent rotation.

Like seriously, if you wasted all the time learning to pacifist stages in order to survive, I'd say you wasted massive amounts of time. The strategies for just shooting everything are massively simpler, lower execution, and more consistent. I honestly can't understand where people are getting this from. Any part of the game that's easy to pacifist will be even easier to just mash and shoot through without chaining, and any part of the game that's challenging will require ten times harder execution and reading abilities then if you just shot everything.

[ACSeraph]

I can actually get through stage 3 that way, it's not nearly as hard as you would expect. 4 gets really rough though. The big issue in Dot Eater is death by enemy collision; the paterns are definitely easier to me.

However this may just be because I fucking suck at Ika. I get extremely confused about what color I currently am/need to be. In Dot Eater I dont have that problem. But don't get me wrong, I'm not learning DE as some kind of survival work around, I just straight up find it more fun to play than normal Ika.

[Squire Grooktook]

I can actually get through stage 3 that way, it's not nearly as hard as you would expect. 4 gets really rough though. The big issue in Dot Eater is death by enemy collision; the paterns are definitely easier to me.

However this may just be because I fucking suck at Ika. I get extremely confused about what color I currently am/need to be. In Dot Eater I dont have that problem. But don't get me wrong, I'm not learning DE as some kind of survival work around, I just straight up find it more fun to play than normal Ika.

Don't even think about trying stage 4 like that. The flower will murder you to hell and back, and it's not hard at all if you just use the simple rotating strategy.

I'd also say stage 3 is objectively harder pacifist. All the little gun turrets and shit in the opening can be instant killed from behind walls (thus, with no fear of retaliation) by absorbing the block lasers and using homing shots (as opposed to maneuvering through denser corridors with enemies and turrets shooting at you). The final phase of the closing gate section (before the mini boss) has only one color at a time and is much tighter without shooting the enemies. The only part I can think of that might be harder is when the lasers come from the walls in the speed up section, but you'd have to be really silly to intentionally shoot same colored enemies before switching there, and you have enough room to macro dodge the suicide bullets anyway.

If you're playing for survival, there is no reason to indulge in dot eating.

[ACSeraph]

Yeah I'm not though, I'm playing for DE. Trust me I can definitely see the points where things are harder without shooting. DE is just a different beast. I definitely agree stage 4 is a bitch, but 3 I learned in a single evening, so that one can't be that bad.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah I'm not though, I'm playing for DE. Trust me I can definitely see the points where things are harder without shooting. DE is just a different beast. I definitely agree stage 4 is a bitch, but 3 I learned in a single evening, so that one can't be that bad.

Oh okay.

Stage 3 is indeed not that bad, but my point is that it's harder with dot eater then it is just shooting everything. The argument being made here is that if you're playing for survival, you should just pacifist and not shoot anything, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

[ACSeraph]

^I think it depends on the section. If you just want to survive you should known when to stop shooting. For example the last stretch of stage 2 is for sure easier without shooting. DE is hard though for sure, the trouble caused by it outweighs the benefit.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah. There are individual sections which are pretty much scoring mini games that can be ignored or attempted depending on how confident you are, but almost everything that's designed to kill you will be easier with a shooting approach IMO.

Hell, I'd say there are a lot of sections where chaining is less dangerous then DE.

[Strikers1945guy]

Has nothing to do with just absorbing bullets and not shooting all game. My point is that any crazy pattern that comes along you can't dodge, simple jus tdot eater it. I find myself trying to dodge shit I don't need to in ikaruga cause I forget what polarity I am when the shit hits the fan. When there's a crazy pattern of all white bullets stage 5 jts like "fuck dodging that " change polarity. Sit there for 2 seconds

Ikaruga isn't the easiest game of course but playing for survival AKA dot eater isn't mount everest.
.

[Strikers1945guy]

I feel I need to also say that the polarity switching is a cool idea .It should have been used all the time when there was a mix of black and white bullets however. Having a shit load or a crazy pattern of ONE POLARITY is downright stupid when I can just switch sit there and absorb it all.

If I had to constantly switch to find the lesser bullet density in a pattern for advantage during dodging that would have been a bit more fun.

Throw a horribly constrained scoring chain system on top and I want to play this game about as much as I want to see my mother in law, never or in a hole.

[Skykid]

When it's done well, I find it the opposite of boring. There's something about keeping tension and mental engagement so high for so long, that really scrambles your nerves and causes a massive feeling of catharsis when you finish.

I think this is the most pertinent point about RSG. It was an attempt to break away from shmup norms, and there's nothing wrong with diversity - it's a rare thing in the genre.

But RSG is about approach really. Whereas regular shmups are akin to superb episodes of TV shows, something to bomb through and feel good, RSG is more like a good, lengthy novel. You need to commit to it and then digest it piece by piece, but when you're in the thick of it - part of that constantly evolving, epic space war - it's a pretty special experience.

At the same time my problem with it is probably the same as most people's: I want to be really good at it, but it requires so much time and attention I fail to run with it long enough to divide and conquer.

[Squire Grooktook]

I find myself trying to dodge shit I don't need to in ikaruga cause I forget what polarity I am when the shit hits the fan.

That's because you screwed up the route. It's no different then if you screwed up a route in Dodonpachi or Ketsui and had to navigate a wall of pink bullets.

The basics of surviving or scoring in Ika aren't that different from many other shmups.

What do I do to survive in Dangun Feveron? I stream bullets, tap dodge, and speed kill things so that I don't have to deal with "crazy patterns". The only time I sight read/react to "crazy patterns" is on the handful of bosses that have some rng to them. And this same statement applies just as much to Ika. You position yourself, move yourself and kill things according to a plan so that you don't have to deal with crazy complex mixed bullet patterns. When you get to the bosses who are random-ish, you sight read.

When there's a crazy pattern of all white bullets stage 5 jts like "fuck dodging that " change polarity. Sit there for 2 seconds

The whole point of that section is that it's a scoring challenge with no survival difficulty that comes as a moment of mercy before the final boss (who is pure sight reading and harder then everything in the game combined). You're supposed to speed kill it as fast as posible by point blanking and unleashing the homing shot with perfect timing, then switching color, unleashing an opposite colored homing shot to kill the next one, repeat. That section (which also shows up in Rob's review, WHAT A COINCIDENCE) is just bonus points that you can get more of with good execution.

Ikaruga isn't the easiest game of course but playing for survival AKA dot eater isn't mount everest.
.

Nobody is arguing that it is, but saying survival "is just dot eater" is misinformation considering it's harder then a survival "shoot everything" game plan.

I feel I need to also say that the polarity switching is a cool idea .It should have been used all the time when there was a mix of black and white bullets however. Having a shit load or a crazy pattern of ONE POLARITY is downright stupid when I can just switch sit there and absorb it all.

There really aren't that many phases in the game that throw only one bullet at you. If they do, you have to work for it by properly positioning yourself and preemptively absorbing and killing things. The same way you'd avoid uber complex patterns in most shmups.

Seriously, how many sections in the game can you name besides that stage 5 scoring stretch that have only one polarity at a time?

[Strikers1945guy]

The first 2 stages are too easy to bother switching polarity when playing for survival and stage 5 has a few safe spots of just one polarity crazy patterns.

Look I don't hate Ikaruga I'm just saying for normal survival which we all know 75% of people are playing for, the mechanics aren't gold

For score, the game becomes much more apparent that's how it was designed (duh I guess) but jts not much more liberal that ANY DDP crap chain system.

[Squire Grooktook]

The first 2 stages are too easy to bother switching polarity we playing for survival

Really.



So you don't switch colors here? Disregarding the massive laser, I'm curious why you'd find it easier to manually squeeze through the tight gaps in those black/white spirals as the opposite color.

when playing for survival and stage 5 has a few safe spots of just one polarity crazy patterns.

Those parts aren't "safe spots". They're pure score bonuses. It's like when another shmup throws a bunch of medals or zakos who barely shoot back at you for a score bonus for a boss. It's basically a "hey, thanks for making it to the final stage! the next boss is hella hard so have some free points though! you can get more if you kill this stuff with finesse though!"

The fact that the only part you can name specifically just happens to be a prominent joke from Xoxak's review leads me to believe that you are basing your knowledge of the game on that joke/troll review.

Look I don't hate Ikaruga I'm just saying for normal survival which we all know 75% of people are playing for, the mechanics aren't gold

I disagree. My experience with Ika for survival wasn't much different then any of the other shmups I've 1cc'd lately.






I really don't want to get into a fight here, but I really do feel that there's a lot of misinformation about the game floating around. It's a different experience from other shmups, just like Mars Matrix/Gunbird 2/Ketsui are all different experiences from eachother, but it's not as alien and sterile as people make it out to be. It's based on the same skills and fundamentals, even if they are applied differently IMO.

[Blinge]

saying survival "is just dot eater" is misinformation considering it's harder then a survival "shoot everything" game plan.

Seriously, playing for survival by switching polarity as little as possible is far easier. Suicide bullets on normal aren't a problem as long as you remember the cardinal rule: dont blow something up and instantly switch.
If dot eater's so easy I'll be expecting some clears on the Ikaruga score board soon then. Apparently no one's got past stage 3 yet..

[mastermx]

Yeah ika is unique. When I cleared it on normal I didn't have to sight read and dodge bullets. Most of the game you just need to know when to switch. Compare that with DOJ or CCWI where you must dodge and sight read at nearly most sections of the game.

I love Ika it's not sterile, but you have to appreciate it for what it is, and apart from bosses, stage 5 and hard mode, playing normal for survival has little bullets dodging/tap dodging etc.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah ika is unique. When I cleared it on normal I didn't have to sight read and dodge bullets. Most of the game you just need to know when to switch. Compare that with DOJ or CCWI where you must dodge and sight read at nearly most sections of the game.

What about the final boss :3

I'd also argue that with a proper route, you don't have to sight read and dodge in DOJ's first loop outside of one or two spots.

I know I didn't do a lot of "sight reading" when playing most of Dangun and Dragon Blaze. I really don't see the big difference people make. Honestly, "sight reading" is really only necessary if there's some element of randomness in the pattern (which, in my experience, is mostly absent from many cave games).

[Cagar]

Yeah ika is unique. When I cleared it on normal I didn't have to sight read and dodge bullets. Most of the game you just need to know when to switch.

Either you 'cleared' it with continues or I'm calling this statement bullshit.

[Squire Grooktook]

This kind of reminds me of the recent point about "which requires more memo on the first loop, Cave or Psyikyo".

The thing is, sometimes these games might give the illusion of having more "dodging" because they're easier to flail around in, even though you ultimately end up playing them the same way. A lot of Cave games are very static, but you get to spam bombs and flail around on the first loop when you don't know what you're doing, giving the illusion that the game is more about dodging, even if that's not the way you play the game in the long run.

At the end of the day, the only thing that truly determines how much "dodging" there is, is how much randomness is present. Some games have more, some games have less. I don't think a lot of the games that are held up as having more "dodging" then Ika have that much more.

[PROMETHEUS]

I'd also argue that with a proper route, you don't have to sight read and dodge in DOJ's first loop outside of one or two spots.

No I don't agree at all. I don't know what it would be like with a 100% survival route ofc easier than any scoring route but in DOJ you get to read and dodge all the time in first loop. Stage 1 no more than a few times probably but boss definitely (bit hard in fact if you hyper^^), stage 2 quite a few spots right from the beginning to the end, at least 10 potential danger spots!, + all the boss, stage 3 has a few easy sections once it is routed but there are still quite a number of spots including ofc midboss (hard dodges here before and during if you're trying to chain it as well!) and the boss, + last pattern of boss is actually pretty high difficulty (end game like difficulty), stage 4 is more methodical there is less reading in the very beginning but gotta move precisely then you quickly need to read&dodge again some pretty hard spots, +boss definitely, and stage 5 yeah plenty of spots + the boss totally read&dodge man! [and then ofc there is second loop]