Why no love for Fever SOS (Dangun Feveron)?

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Woman please what does that even mean? That I don't judge games for myself? Yeah you're cool and not a sheep because you don't like IKD ok cool man.

[Some-Mist]

lets take one of cave's most unique games and make it like the majority of their catalog...

I like ikd and all... but if cave were to release a new ip, I'd 100x over take a new ygw title or something more unique opposed to another dodonpachi title or ikd clone.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Yeah I'm not sitting here saying make it just like another game. I have no idea what he would do with it. What I do know is everything he has ever touched has been great except when he specifically tries to make a game un-Cave like (Deathsmiles). So I can't see him failing here or anywhere. He makes the funnest games ever in my opinion.

[Some-Mist]

he was a programmer on guwange and that was just kinda alright..

many people didn't like progear either in which he was a programmer, although that's my personal favorite cave game.

[Squire Grooktook]

Guwange is fantastic too, and another example of a unique and experimental style that's also super fun. I wish Cave had continued to make games like this on the side, outside of the later YGW titles most of the stuff from the second half of their life is a little too formulaic IMO.

Patterns are sometimes annoying and don't make me want to keep at it and it doesn't really feel like Cave.

Stage 3 boss is literally one of my favorite things ever conceived of in a shmup. Patterns are great.

Well, if I have one complaint, it's that it could use more patterns like the ones on that boss. Absolutely brilliant.

When you say "make it more Ikeda like" I'm immediately thinking focus modes, chaining, denser patterns and slow tap dodging through them...basically the antithesis of what makes this game great and unique. No thanks.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

The bosses were probably programmed by different people.

[M.Knight]

There's already loads of great IKD-style CAVE shmups so I don't see why would anyone want Dangun to lose its uniqueness and become exactly like the other CAVE games.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I don't see IKD's games as being all the same. I don't even see Akai Katana as "the same" as Akai Katana Limited, much less a hypothetical Dangun vs. everything else.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't see IKD's games as being all the same. I don't even see Akai Katana as "the same" as Akai Katana Limited, much less a hypothetical Dangun vs. everything else.

I feel there's a lot of similarity between most of IKD's games, but this extends to the danmaku genre in general. This is, to me, a problem with modern shmups.

These days, for most danmaku shooters, 90% of what's unique about the game comes from a scoring system that's overlayed on top of a very formulaic fundamental set up. You get your small hitbox, your focus mode, and some scoring system to go along with both...and that's it. Sure, some games have faster bullets and some have slower but denser patterns, as well as a gimmick every now and then (Guwange and Galuda, come to mind, though the former is a part of the same experimental period that spawned Dangun), but for the most part the majority of danmaku games aren't nearly as distinctive as many older shmups IMO.

Back in the Taito/Konami/Irem days, many more games felt fundamentally different IMO. Not only were the pattern styles (fast vs slow, dense vs sparse, etc.) and hazards in each game different, but hitbox size varied much more radically, forcing different kinds of maneuvers. Speed was a much more tangible benefit beyond macro dodging because with a larger hitbox you'd need to move farther and faster to get out of the way of bullets and hazards. And on top of all those fundamentals, you'd also get an interesting gimmick to set the game apart. R-Type's Force Pod, Gradius's Options, X-Multiply's Tentacles, Rayforce's laser, Recca's Bomb, etc. etc. even beyond that there were environmental hazards, power up systems, etc...

Now I know that modern scoring systems are very deep, and the way they force you to play will ultimately create very different game plans, but for me they lack the overt personality of the classics.


Anyway, to return to Dangun, it's a game that immediately and fundamentally stands out from other danmaku games on two levels:
-Most Danmaku games you focus and tap through most dense patterns, Dangun forces you to move blindingly fast to speed kill and macro everything.
-Most DAnmaku games have you Hold down the button to automaticly damage the boss with your laser or whatever the fuck. Dangun's sub weapons force you to aim and time your sub shots against boss weakpoints.

You don't just score differently, you dodge differently and you shoot differently from most danmaku shmups. That's more then the vast majority of them can say IMO.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I don't know why you'd want a bigger hitbox unless a game is just way too easy or why you would want to lose the ability to control your movement better but if that's what you're into then that's cool with me.

[Some-Mist]

how can uncontrollably manic edge of your seat intensity be any fun?

[neorocker]

this thread in 2012: "great, different, and completely bonkers game, doesn't really feel like cave at all"
this thread in 2015: "doesn't feel like cave, it's shit"

Cave fans tend to hate anything that plays remotely oldschool.

Ikeda should have taken it and fixed it before release.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

how can uncontrollably manic edge of your seat intensity be any fun?

I have had fun playing it, I get what you're saying, I just have a hard time taking it seriously. Different for different sake is not interesting. Anyway you guys are assuming a lot. It's not like IKD can't make fast bullets. What I'm saying is everything he touches turns to gold.

[Giest118]

Again: Dangun Feveron is perfect. Any alterations that would have been made to it by Ikeda would have placed blemishes on an otherwise divine piece of fine art.

[neorocker]

What I'm saying is everything he touches turns to gold.

What I do know is everything he has ever touched has been great except when he specifically tries to make a game un-Cave like (Deathsmiles).

feveron isn't particularly cave-like so by this logic it'd be absolute crap if he touched it. it's very much excellent (maybe perfect? i can't think of any beneficial changes) as is and you probably want a different game, all things said.

[cave hermit]

What I'm saying is everything he touches turns to gold.

Objects touched by IKD only turn to gold if the proper hand type is used: if the touch chain counter value is below 100 or the hundreds digit is an even number, the right hand must be used. Otherwise the left hand must be used.

Also IKD must be in hyper mode while touching in order to get the maximum amount of gold possible out of each touched object.

[Strikers1945guy]

Dangun is amazing. I really like all the hated cave games (Pink Sweets, Ibara, Dangun).

Guess I enjoy the Non Ikeda games more? I love me some Mushi but the crazy slowdown, endless streams of billions of pink bullets gets dull. Dangun is so fast paced and the disco men you have to collect feels like Yagawa medal chining to me so I love it.

[Obscura]

What I'm saying is everything he touches turns to gold.

Objects touched by IKD only turn to gold if the proper hand type is used: if the touch chain counter value is below 100 or the hundreds digit is an even number, the right hand must be used. Otherwise the left hand must be used.

Also IKD must be in hyper mode while touching in order to get the maximum amount of gold possible out of each touched object.

IKD being in hyper mode causes the touch-chain counter to go up faster, but it doesn't cause the amount of gold released from an object to increase. To maximize gold accquired from an individual object, he has to use hyper mode to increase the touch chain counter value, but then continue the touch chain with the proper hand with his hyper mode available not not active.

[Special World]

I don't see IKD's games as being all the same. I don't even see Akai Katana as "the same" as Akai Katana Limited, much less a hypothetical Dangun vs. everything else.

I don't know why you'd want a bigger hitbox unless a game is just way too easy or why you would want to lose the ability to control your movement better but if that's what you're into then that's cool with me.

I can only see these arguments existing in a world where STGs are so marginalized that Cave has a monopoly on player experience. I love Cave—love 'em to death, Futari being in my top three games of all time—but to almost any analysis their games are *completely the same*. All the surface-level mechanics are the same. Rapid shot, focus, fast vs slow, waves of bullets that tear through popcorn enemies instead of needing to be properly aimed, etc. Ikeda makes a damned fine game, no doubt about it, but I'd rather live in a world where Cave can actually surprise me, where a new Cave game is more than a scoring system skinned over Dodonpachi.

To me this is an echo of what's going on in first person shooters, where everything is Call of Duty, and if it isn't, well it damned well better be soon. Call of Duty 4 was a revolutionary game, no doubt about it; I still think Call of Duty 4 is a very good game. But I didn't need Modern Warfare 2, or Black Ops, or Advanced Warfare, and I certainly didn't need Battlefield, or Bioshock Infinite, or any other cookie-cutter wannabe. Aiming down the sights was great—for Call of Duty 4. Clicking the sticks to run was great—for Call of Duty 4. Killsteaks were great—for Call of Duty 4.

So when I see a comment like "Why would you want a bigger hitbox [unless there's something wrong with your game]?" or "why wouldn't you want to control your movement better [by using this 20+ year old mechanic]" I have to wonder... do you not have any love for the rest of the genre? Sure sure, nothing in my book is beating Futari Black Label, though Mars Matrix and Eschatos come pretty damned close. But what about, say, Gate of Thunder, Darius Gaiden, Gradius, Star Parodier, Battle Garegga, Zanac, etc etc etc? There are more ways to make an incredible STG besides Cave's way—and Cave has already made incredible STGs that break their own mold. I'm not saying, "oh, Muchi Muchi Pork should be like this" or "oh, Dodonpachi should be like that." All I'm saying is that Dodonpachi has been iterated on, what, ten or fifteen times so far? Do we need another precision-molded Cave STG? I'm happy to get another one, but I'd much rather have something new. Maybe let Yagawa have his last chance in the sun, and then do something completely different. There's much more to the genre than rapid shot, focus laser, this is the perfect ship speed now and forever, amen.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I grew up with the genre and been using emulation since 2000. There are a few non cave shooters that I still like like garegga and batrider and strikers but to me IKD makes games that are so much more fun than most other shooting games that I wouldn't waste my precious game time with most other games (but I do give them a chance, even tried sine mora). I don't even have time to master the best so why spend time on others that I don't enjoy as much. Also there is nothing else you can do with arcade controls to control speed unless you do something apeshit sloppy like pink sweets. Like I said before, different for different sake isn't interesting to me and the differences most other games have are like a downgrade to me. Just my taste in the genre, I know what I like. Like the thought of unplugging akai katana limited to play a hori by say any other company, I would never do that unless I was sick to death of it somehow. It completely dominates.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't know why you'd want a bigger hitbox unless a game is just way too easy or why you would want to lose the ability to control your movement better but if that's what you're into then that's cool with me.

Hitbox: Different hitbox sizes force you to move differently. They can force you to move more, they can force you to move faster (ie: with a 1 pixel hitbox vs a 1 pixel bullet hitbox, you only need to move 1 pixel to get out of the way. with a 10 pixel hitbox vs a 8 pixel bullet hitbox, you have to move at least 9 pixels out of the way). They can make the game feel more "visceral" and make different kinds of patterns feel more tense. Hishouzame feels amazingly intense thanks to its hitbox size and speed, as does Darius 1. I actually prefer small-ish hitboxes, but large hitboxes aren't outdated design, they give unique strategies and tactics to the their games.

Rayforce is another example of a game which feels endlessly tense and visceral thanks to it's larger hitbox size. The sense of terror as a bullet scrapes past the hull of your ship in that game is like no other.


Speed: It's not about losing the ability to control your ship. A game that throws ridiculously dense patterns at you while you're moving at light speed feels like shit to me, yes.

However, a game that gives you an exciting, thrilling move speed, and then designs patterns and hazards that are intuitive and advantageous to dodge at a high speed (ie large bullets, macro dodging, keeping up with enemies etc.) is the epitome of hyperactive fun to me.

The fact that most dodging is done whilst moving like a snail is something that's put me off from most danmaku games.

Like the thought of unplugging akai katana limited to play a hori by say any other company, I would never do that unless I was sick to death of it somehow. It completely dominates.

Well, if that's the way you feel, then I guess you're a IKD fan and not an STG fan...not that there's anything wrong with that . Whatever floats you're boat, but probably not a good critic on other stg's then if you have utterly no ability to see any appeal in them.

Personally, I like Ketsui and DOJ, but there are more fun games to me, and I like the genre as whole.

I just have a hard time taking it seriously. Different for different sake is not interesting.

But it's not different just for different sake, the playstyle of the game is very well thought out and logical, on top of being very exciting and manic. You also haven't given any real complaints about it besides "the patterns feel annoying", which isn't really arguable. Like I said, it seems like it's just not for you (because IKD is the only thing you like), in which case calling it "bad" because it doesn't conform to your own personal tastes is a bit much.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Well, if that's the way you feel, then I guess you're a IKD fan and not an STG fan...not that there's anything wrong with that .

Sort of yeah, these days. I came here when cave-stg shut down. I like Yagawa too though and other people who have worked at Cave, Joker Jun, Namiki etc. And don't know which parts of games IKD wrote vs. other programmers so, Cave fan.

[vector7]

Call of Duty 4 was a revolutionary game, no doubt about it; I still think Call of Duty 4 is a very good game. But I didn't need Modern Warfare 2, or Black Ops, or Advanced Warfare, and I certainly didn't need Battlefield, or Bioshock Infinite, or any other cookie-cutter wannabe.

Revolutionary?! Seriously?! Maybe there are some "revolutionary" things in multiplayer (which i doubt), but there was nothing revolutionary in single player. Also first battlefield came out earlier than first cod, though maybe you talk about the resemblance between later battlefields and cods (can't say anything about that since i only saw some videos, not interested in playing them at all). And i don't see why bioshock infinite is a cod wannabe.

[Special World]

The gameplay style of Call of Duty 4 was *massively* different from other FPS games, on consoles at the very least. That heavy, clunky style of game hadn't eally been done before; up until then everything was an arena shooter like Quake 3 or Halo or else they were a standard WW2 shooter that was scarcely different. COD4 was a vast mechanical overhaul, its closest cousin was Gears of War and it was majorly different from that even. I should say that I've mostly played multiplayer, the single player campaigns are very cookiecutter and so the freshness of the mechanics never shone through. The new Battlefield games may as well be called "Call of Duty on big maps." Bioshock Infinite may have a different focus from Call of Duty, but it uses the exact same controls and features incredibly comparable gameplay. It very heavily masquerades as a game it's not, but at its heart it's no different from any modern military shooter, hence a lot of the criticism that its story is at odds with the gameplay.

[vector7]

Huh, cod4 was released near the end of 2007, i doubt consoles didn't had anything similar. At the very least they had previous cod's and they were much closer to modern military shooters than to ut and q3. I think cod4 is just an evolution of it's predecessors, not revolution. And in my opinion to call bioshock infinite (i'm not a big fan of it btw) "at its heart it's no different from any modern military shooter" is similar to "every shmup is basically the same". Sorry for offtop.

[ColonelFatso]

CoD 4 is a lot like CoD 1, 2 and 3 (and the Medal of Honour games that preceded them), except with more automatic guns. It actually plays a bit faster than the previous games, at least on PC (SMG run speed is good and there are lots of places to abuse id Tech 3 physics quirks like strafe-jumping and the like). It's a solid, fun multiplayer experience, but nothing revolutionary in any sense. People thinking it's revolutionary or even 'fresh' kind of remind me of the people who thought games like Halo or Goldeneye were revolutionary or fresh when all they did was bring stuff that had been on PCs for ages to consoles (especially in Halo's case, which is basically just Unreal meets Half-Life with a story cribbed from Larry Niven).

On topic, Dangun Feveron is easily my favourite Cave game, because it's not a typical Cave game; not a slight on people who do like the standard Cave mechanisms, they're just not for me, whereas the intensity of Dangun suits me perfectly.

[copy-paster]

The problem with Dangun is too many disco men onscreen, other that the game is excellent.

[trap15]

Too many disco men? Or not enough?

[Squire Grooktook]

Not enough.

[JBC]

I've always loved Dangun Feveron. It's actually more geared towards my taste than the majority of the DonPachi games & other Cave shmups. I also prefer Guwange over most of their stuff. Both are basically perfect.

In fact I'd say my top three are -

3. ESP Ra.De
2. Dangun Feveron
1. Guwange