XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Moonwalker]

Thank you for your answer Fudoh and thank you for your profiles FBX!

[Tomdominer]

Hey FBX,

Is there a guide to creating these profiles? I guess you need the exact output from the console / game and then use the scale values to enlarge them the right amount of times to get some sort of multiple of 1080p? The problem is that I find the XRGB "zoom / scale" menus totally counter intuitive. Also, it takes so long to actually see the picture that zooming by hand takes FOREVER.

I was hoping to try my hand at creating a profile for "Saturn High-Ten Bomberman", which in ten player mode goes into some sort of progressive widescreen signal. Also, creating some saturn profiles in general would be good!

Any pointers on how to calculate what all the settings should be would be greatly appreciated.

[FBX]

Hey FBX,

Is there a guide to creating these profiles? I guess you need the exact output from the console / game and then use the scale values to enlarge them the right amount of times to get some sort of multiple of 1080p? The problem is that I find the XRGB "zoom / scale" menus totally counter intuitive. Also, it takes so long to actually see the picture that zooming by hand takes FOREVER.

I was hoping to try my hand at creating a profile for "Saturn High-Ten Bomberman", which in ten player mode goes into some sort of progressive widescreen signal. Also, creating some saturn profiles in general would be good!

Any pointers on how to calculate what all the settings should be would be greatly appreciated.

Unfortunately it is very tedious, but Artemio's 240p Test Suit on the Genesis for example was a huge help in showing me where I needed to align the picture to the graphics:

1. In using the Visual_Set functions to align the masking, I used Artemio's grid test patterns for 320 and 256, which show the edge of the active graphics in red. Pressing the C-button lights up the overscan area, and this let me know how close I was getting to completely blocking it out. This part was even more tedious because the Framemeister has to blank and repost the video after each adjustment of the H & V Widths and well as the H & V Positions. So it took an hour or so of fine-tuning these settings to a perfect border mask.

2. Once I got the Visual_Set functions perfectly set to the edges of the Genesis graphics, then I had to experiment with different combinations of Zoom_Size and Zoom_Overscan until the scaling was perfect. For that, Artemio's vertically scrolling grid let me know when I nailed the perfect 4x. Now thankfully the Framemeister updates these adjustments on-the-fly, but because the combinations required to nail integer-perfect scaling are pot luck, it becomes much like trying to crack a combination lock. You just keep trying different combinations until that scrolling grid shows zero scaling artifacts, and that's when you know you nailed it. Further confirmation of 4x-perfect scaling can be done by turning Zoom off and checking Smart_2x. If the picture takes up the same vertical space as Smart_2x, you know you're at 4x 240p. For this, I used pieces of tape on my TV screen that marked the exact vertical borders of Smart_2x, and those tape markers acted as guide posts when I would try to dial in the Zoom settings.

3. Lastly comes aspect correction. For both square pixels and TV, I would use a tape measure and write down in inches the vertical size of the 4x image. Then I would use simple math to determine how many inches wide the image should be based on that vertical measurement. Then I would adjust Zoom-Width until the horizontal was at the correct aspect ratio. For 5x, I would multiply the 4x measurements by 1.25 and adjust Zoom-Width accordingly.

Anyway, the main thing to remember when wanting to do integer-perfect scaling 1080p profiles is to check vertical scroll either in a test rom or in a game that features it. It should be liquid smooth if properly scaled.

[FBX]

Just ordered an RGB-modded N64, so those profiles will be forthcoming in about a week.

I'm also considering going back and streamlining some of the other profiles to take advantage of the Visual_Set masking technique. I know I should be able to do this for the Master System mode profile (Genesis Power Base converter), so I'll work on that one right now to see what I can do for it.

[Fudoh]

Just ordered an RGB-modded N64, so those profiles will be forthcoming in about a week.

these won't work for all RGB modded N64 units. Heavily depends on the board revision and possibly the mod as well. Remember those false contouring artefacts you saw on 480p PS2 signals ? I get the same on my RGB modded N64 (japanese unit) with H_SCALER set to lower values like 4 or 5. I have to go to 10 to make it look ok. http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg

But definitely let us know how your N64 turns out!

[Galgomite]

Thanks FBX!

[FBX]

Just ordered an RGB-modded N64, so those profiles will be forthcoming in about a week.

these won't work for all RGB modded N64 units. Heavily depends on the board revision and possibly the mod as well. Remember those false contouring artefacts you saw on 480p PS2 signals ? I get the same on my RGB modded N64 (japanese unit) with H_SCALER set to lower values like 4 or 5. I have to go to 10 to make it look ok. http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg

But definitely let us know how your N64 turns out!

Well that sucks to know. I'll give it a try anyway. The one I ordered is an original charcoal console with the RetroRGB amp circuit.

Just got done re-vamping the Master System mode Genesis profiles. I'll upload them after I get done watching a TV show.

[austin532]

I'm also considering going back and streamlining some of the other profiles to take advantage of the Visual_Set masking technique.

What other console profiles need to be tweaked? It would nice if it was possible to reduce the dithering with NES, SNES, and Genesis while still keeping a sharp picture.

[FBX]

I'm also considering going back and streamlining some of the other profiles to take advantage of the Visual_Set masking technique.

What other console profiles need to be tweaked? It would nice if it was possible to reduce the dithering with NES, SNES, and Genesis while still keeping a sharp picture.

Well what you're asking for there is a filter rather than a mask. We'd have to wait for a firmware update that includes such a feature. Besides that, I rather like seeing the dithering. About the only drawback I've seen thus far to sharp PQ is on the Genesis with some games banking on the CRT's ability to blur alternating graphics, which they used to make transparency effects like waterfalls.

With regard to the masking technique I've been using, I was thinking about special profiles like the Super Game Boy, where I could set the mask to the borders of the Game Boy graphics, and that would remove the need for the user to have to turn off the SGB border. In this case, they would simply load the profile. It's worth a look anyway to see if I can pull it off.

Anyway, I've uploaded the new Genesis Master System Mode profiles in the package:

Code: Select all

Updates/changes Aug 31st:

Added a Genesis Master System Mode profile for 4x that is both masked and scanline friendly. Also made some horizontal adjustments to the 5x profile.

Now I will point out that some MS games add in a scrolling border, which not be confused with the actual graphics border. An example of this is Phantasy Star, where the left side has a coded-in scrolling border, but battle scenes & labyrinths are set to the full width.

[Xan]

This effect isn't dependent on CRTs, it's dependent on the composite video signal. Big difference.

[FBX]

This effect isn't dependent on CRTs, it's dependent on the composite video signal. Big difference.

If that's the case, then I almost want to shame the coders responsible for that, but I guess you can't really blame them for playing to the most common denominator.

[Xan]

It's just a hardware limitation of the Genesis having a smaller color palette compared to the SNES. They still wanted to pull off some advanced (for the time) effects, and these effects looking ugly on S-Video/RGB was the drawback on the given hardware.

[Moonwalker]

I tried out a lot am not happy with the way 1080p looks with scanlines, even with FBX´s profiles. The problem now is, I can´t get it right in 720p anymore. Could anyone please help me with the new scanline settings? Is there way to reset the settings otherwise?

Thanks in advance!

[FBX]

I tried out a lot am not happy with the way 1080p looks with scanlines, even with FBX´s profiles.

They only look decent in 4x profiles, and I found a setting of 80 and 100 look best for scanlines there. Also of course set your TV to full pixel (no overscan) to ensure the scanlines will be uniform. Lastly, remember to make sure ZOOM is turned on as my profiles rely on it being on.

[Smashbro29]

I tried out a lot am not happy with the way 1080p looks with scanlines, even with FBX´s profiles.

They only look decent in 4x profiles, and I found a setting of 80 and 100 look best for scanlines there. Also of course set your TV to full pixel (no overscan) to ensure the scanlines will be uniform. Lastly, remember to make sure ZOOM is turned on as my profiles rely on it being on.

I don't know, 5x isn't so bad.

Personally speaking, I can't stand black space. I like to get it as big as possible while keeping all proportions perfect.

[Moonwalker]

I tried out a lot am not happy with the way 1080p looks with scanlines, even with FBX´s profiles.

They only look decent in 4x profiles, and I found a setting of 80 and 100 look best for scanlines there. Also of course set your TV to full pixel (no overscan) to ensure the scanlines will be uniform. Lastly, remember to make sure ZOOM is turned on as my profiles rely on it being on.

I don't know, 5x isn't so bad.

Personally speaking, I can't stand black space. I like to get it as big as possible while keeping all proportions perfect.

Same for me with the black space, but I need my scanlines nicely as well. That´s why I want to go back to 720p. I will try with the 100 and 80 settings FBX suggested.

[FBX]

I will try with the 100 and 80 settings FBX suggested.

80 - 100 actually (in order on the scanline menus). It looks hot to me when I try it on the 240p consoles, and I'm not really a fan of scanlines.

[Moonwalker]

80 and 100 work like a charm in 720p mode, thanks a lot!
Is there an easy way to mask the picture for NES and Mega Drive Overscan games without loosing the scanlines?

[12345]

Just ordered an RGB-modded N64, so those profiles will be forthcoming in about a week.

these won't work for all RGB modded N64 units. Heavily depends on the board revision and possibly the mod as well. Remember those false contouring artefacts you saw on 480p PS2 signals ? I get the same on my RGB modded N64 (japanese unit) with H_SCALER set to lower values like 4 or 5. I have to go to 10 to make it look ok. http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg

But definitely let us know how your N64 turns out!

I think I got this aswell. It can be fixed by setting Sharpness to 1 though, like with 480p content.

[FBX]

80 and 100 work like a charm in 720p mode, thanks a lot!
Is there an easy way to mask the picture for NES and Mega Drive Overscan games without loosing the scanlines?

Actually I meant those settings for 1080p 4x scale profiles as I've not tried them for 720p.

And no, there's no 'easy' way to mask them, but it can be done. My 1080p Genesis profiles are fully masked and work with scanlines.

[FBX]

Heavily depends on the board revision and possibly the mod as well. Remember those false contouring artefacts you saw on 480p PS2 signals ? I get the same on my RGB modded N64 (japanese unit) with H_SCALER set to lower values like 4 or 5. I have to go to 10 to make it look ok. http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg

But definitely let us know how your N64 turns out!

Just got the console in the mail today and the RGB is FLAWLESS! I asked the seller and he said he used the following guide:

http://retrorgb.com/n64rgb.html

I've got Doom 64 loaded up and I'm using the JP-21 Csync cable from my SNES. The graphics are crisp and clean, and the colors are perfect.

So at any rate, the profiles will be based on the original charcoal N64 & the mod technique used in that retrorgb link. I'll get a set done shortly and uploaded.

[RGB32E]

Tim's N64RGB will give a brighter and sharper image than the THS7314. Time to return your N64 for a different mod...

[Moonwalker]

80 and 100 work like a charm in 720p mode, thanks a lot!
Is there an easy way to mask the picture for NES and Mega Drive Overscan games without loosing the scanlines?

Actually I meant those settings for 1080p 4x scale profiles as I've not tried them for 720p.

And no, there's no 'easy' way to mask them, but it can be done. My 1080p Genesis profiles are fully masked and work with scanlines.

Really? The scanlines all look bad as soon as I have Zoom on...
Maybe I do something wrong?

EDIT:

I hooked up my x360 with 480p to the mini and give out 720p and get two problems. First there is an unsharp 1 pixel area left and right of the screen and second the picture seems to be stretched vertically. I cant see top abd bottom. Does anybody know about this?

[AndysSeveredHead]

Well, I don't know what's changed, but my U2414H monitor recognized my Framemeister this time. Fired it up, and basked in its beauty!


.......annnnnnd a nice, big blotch of light bleed in the upper right corner. Apparently, this is a thing with IPS monitors. Anyone else deal with this problem and find it unbearable? I'm hesitant to start a wild goose chase with returns and exchanges if the problem will never truly go away. Fudoh, you own a couple of these, right?

[xamievilx]

Heavily depends on the board revision and possibly the mod as well. Remember those false contouring artefacts you saw on 480p PS2 signals ? I get the same on my RGB modded N64 (japanese unit) with H_SCALER set to lower values like 4 or 5. I have to go to 10 to make it look ok. http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg

But definitely let us know how your N64 turns out!

Just got the console in the mail today and the RGB is FLAWLESS! I asked the seller and he said he used the following guide:

http://retrorgb.com/n64rgb.html

I've got Doom 64 loaded up and I'm using the JP-21 Csync cable from my SNES. The graphics are crisp and clean, and the colors are perfect.

So at any rate, the profiles will be based on the original charcoal N64 & the mod technique used in that retrorgb link. I'll get a set done shortly and uploaded.

awesome, looking forward to the profiles

[Fudoh]

Fudoh, you own a couple of these, right?

no problems with that over here.

[FBX]

Tim's N64RGB will give a brighter and sharper image than the THS7314. Time to return your N64 for a different mod...

Actually it looks perfectly sharp and is at the correct brightness when I compare it to S-Video on my other unmodded N64, so I'm happy with it as is.

At any rate, I am running into a bit of a problem in that the N64 has 3 different modes: 256x224, 320x240, and 640x480i. It seems pre-existing profiles already work great on these modes, specifically the SNES 4x for the 256 mode, the PS1 progressive profile for 320 mode, and the PS1 interlaced profile for 640 mode. The problem is we don't have a definitive list of which games use which mode. I heard Mario 64 uses 256 mode while Zelda OoT uses 320 mode.

I suppose I'm going to have to play through the library on an emulator and generate a definitive list like I did the Genesis 256 mode... Pain in the ass...

[Gered]

As you may be aware, some N64 games switch between modes for things like menus / gameplay, etc. (e.g. going from 320x240 to 640x480i in a menu). For example, I know Majoras Mask switches to 480i when you open the Bomber's notebook, but otherwise is in 240p.

Will make putting together such a list a royal pain in the ass for sure.

[FBX]

As you may be aware, some N64 games switch between modes for things like menus / gameplay, etc. (e.g. going from 320x240 to 640x480i in a menu). For example, I know Majoras Mask switches to 480i when you open the Bomber's notebook, but otherwise is in 240p.

Will make putting together such a list a royal pain in the ass for sure.

It's all very similar to the list I made for the Genesis, where I had to make detailed notes on the mid-game mode switching. This is definitely one finicky problem about the Frememeister. For example, I loaded up Resident Evil 2 on the N64, and it does so much mode switching when it detects the expanded memory, that the Framemeister practically stays constantly blanked out while it tries to keep up. It's effectively unplayable on the Framemeister unless you use the default memory pak.

[Pasky]

Can anyone explain why there is a significant color difference between HDMI and DVI output modes? DVI seems more accurate HDMI green's are very bright compared to the DVI output mode.