Why don't you try hard?

[pestro87]

Remember, Valhalla can only be attained by those who die in battle


If you guys have the time and effort to keyboard-warrior this thread, you have the time and effort to try harder

In all seriousness though, ultimately I couldn't care less what other people decide to do with the games that they own. Also, if you want something to change, you gotta do it yourself. Ask yourself what you are doing today that will contribute to this change. You need to set an example, you can't just expect people to change - that's not how this world works. You want more skilled players on here? Cool, are you practicing your routes today so that you can improve?

For me personally, I currently really enjoy learning more about the Futari God Mode so I'll keep working on my score, been at it for ~1.5 years now. Having that said, I couldn't care less if I happen to be the only one on here playing this game or if I'm the only one on here who likes to play for score. Like I said, I enjoy working on it so therefore, I'll keep doing it. It's quite simple really.

[Blinge]

This thread had some major potential; higher level players encouraging collective improvement would be great. However, I'm not seeing encouragement.

I still consider myself relatively inexperienced shmupwise, and since joining the forum all I've really done is chased various 1cc's and joined a couple of tournies. I think I can get better and my steps to do so are thus:
>scrub
>first 1cc
> try out different games/styles for a better understanding of the genre, get more clears
> find game I really like, learn to score it (in my case, Ikaruga)
and/or chase more difficult goals like a DDP 2-ALL or Garegga clear
> really get into scoring a game and climb the leaderboards for it.

The first shooter I played was Progear on a cab in London, I loved it. I got MAME and the only shmup I wanted to play was Progear. JWS explained the concept of a 1cc to me, suggested I stop credit feeding
Played maybe an hour or so a day, "I want to beat progear. Gotta clear progear." Getting that 1-ALL was awesome, and it gave me confidence. I said 'yeah, this genre is for me! I think i'm alright at it.' That's why I'm here; that initial positive reinforcement and the possibility of playing and clearing more great games. I have a decent handful of clears now and am hunting larger game.

So seeing chum/Icarus/Eaglet, people I consider to be among the sys11 top tier, essentially saying that 1ccs are nothing is a real slap in the face.

A great start to the community "growing up" would be to stop fetishizing 1ccs. 1cc is a basic goal, that to anyone with basic ability, won't require a lot of work in most games.

I absolutely agree with this, and have even said as much on public channels. I never did understand the obsession with building the largest collection of 1CCs going. 1CC'ing a game - a 'scrubby' single loop clear at the least in multi-loop games, if we're making a distinction - isn't remotely difficult at all and only requires a small amount of intelligent, focused practice, and it doesn't really speak to the level of your abilities if you're panic-bomb-spamming and fumbling your way to the end.

I've never thought this forum nor the attitudes of better players were elitist and was amused by new members/banned members claiming it was. Until now.

So what's the alternative old chum? Delete the "your latest 1cc" thread? Tell someone who's just cleared Ketsui the first time to git gud and come back with a real triumph?

1cc's are so "fetishized" precisely because they're a good milestone. A tangible example of efforts coming to fruition. Unless you three have been sat on mastery mountain for so long you literally cannot remember what it was like when getting a 1-ALL offered any sort of challenge. Well god damn, just put yourself in someone else's shoes for a minute. I figure most of this forum are a mid-tier level of player who are predominantly clear-chasers.

I don't see how undermining people's accomplishments is supposed to encourage better play or raising of the game. Can't believe a miserable cunt like me is typing this but surely, surely a positive approach is more effective.

Oh and Eaglet, I'm not sure what you're getting at about stress management at all. Getting stressed at work or having to write something for a deadline is nothing like the 'stress' I feel when I'm about to die in a shmup and lose a great run. I don't feel shmupping is helping with my life at all, I wish it would! But that's just me..

tl;dr Don't shit on people's milestones if you want them to continue further up that path!
Encourage raising of the game if that's what you really want.

[Eaglet]

To me, it's not stress but excitement, but I'm just saying I can see how some other people might not enjoy it. And I can respect that.

Oh and Eaglet, I'm not sure what you're getting at about stress management at all. Getting stressed at work or having to write something for a deadline is nothing like the 'stress' I feel when I'm about to die in a shmup and lose a great run. I don't feel shmupping is helping with my life at all, I wish it would! But that's just me..

Acute stress has nothing to do with long term stress. Acute stress is precisely the kind of excitement you feel when your body releases adrenaline to put you in a fight/flight situation. This is one of the things shmups are excellent for, in my opinion.
Some people tend to choke in this kind of situation though. The stimulus becomes too much and as a result it either leads to extreme tunnel vision or just a complete lock-up.
Handling this acute stress is very much a skill that can be developed and it's something that would come in handy whenever you experience a situation where you've got to make decisions on the fly.
Granted, the level of acute stress that you experience from games is a lot lower than what you'd feel when yourself or someone else is in danger, but it's still the same kind of reaction.

Hope you understand what i'm saying.


edit: Also Blinge, i can't speak for the rest, but i think i've made it clear that 1CCs are an accomplishment. The thing is though, it's only a small stepping stone in a long journey.
What i think most of us want is a change in perception where the 1CC is not put on a pedestal and seen as a huge accomplishment in a game, because it honestly isn't.
Clearing the first loop of a two or multiloop game isn't even close to being halfway to mastery.

edit 2: Wow, thanks trap

edit 3: Good job on the clear Special! You seem to have understood what we've been talking about.

[trap15]

@Blinge

That's the thing though, 1CC's are a very early first step to scoring. In the grand scheme of the depth of these games, they are nothing. This community seems to mostly be stuck in the mindset of a 1CC is the end-all be-all goal for any shooting game, when it's barely scratching the surface of a large number of them.

[Special World]

I believe they've overstated the case a little bit due to frustration with a lack of meaningful competition at their level. For myself, a 1CC is a massive accomplishment and I know that's true for a lot of people on these forums. I was getting pretty upset last night because I was trying to hold myself to somebody else's ideal of what I should be capable of, and that combined with the knowledge that I wasn't *really* going for a particularly tough clear put me through some mental turmoil. That being said, I do think Icarus and Grooktook were being pretty supportive.

The original point of this topic was just "try your hardest to 1CC your game—but then keep going." I think there was frustration with people 1CCing (or not) their games and then just tossing them aside. Somewhere along the line it turned into a war, and I was probably more worked up than anyone.

Instead of getting (somewhat rightfully) upset, take the time and play a game. Don't hold yourself to anyone else's standard. But if any of the advice in this topic is actually useful and not just agitating, then pick it up. I'm pretty bad at these games (forum standards!), but I put in a lot of practice last night and cleared Eschatos. Now I'm trying to clear hard mode, and after that maybe I'll try refining my scoring style. Probably I'll end up going back to grad school and forgetting all about this.

If you're 1-ALLing Progear, you're probably better than me. Keep on shootan! And if I'm not inspirational enough for you, take some inspiration from Yotsubane himself:

[Blinge]

Acute stress has nothing to do with long term stress. Acute stress is precisely the kind of excitement you feel when your body releases adrenaline to put you in a fight/flight situation. This is one of the things shmups are excellent for, in my opinion.
Some people tend to choke in this kind of situation though. The stimulus becomes too much and as a result it either leads to extreme tunnel vision or just a complete lock-up.

Understood. But do you think it's actual adrenaline? Cause I was under the impression that adrenaline is only secreted when there's real danger. And heh, yeah.. I totally got flustered and threw away my last two PB beating Ikaruga runs due to chokes. I'm assuming as I do more full runs this'll become less of a factor.

@Blinge

That's the thing though, 1CC's are a very early first step to scoring. In the grand scheme of the depth of these games, they are nothing. This community seems to mostly be stuck in the mindset of a 1CC is the end-all be-all goal for any shooting game, when it's barely scratching the surface of a large number of them.

Right, of course I get that. My point was to those who want people to move beyond this; I don't think the tone/condescension/contents of this thread are a good way of going about it.
It doesn't matter if they're 'nothing.'
how about a "well done mate, now how about improving that score?"

Someone who's yet to get a clear will probably feel like shit, seeing this thread. It's not a great motivator.

inB4 man up, deal with it faggot etc.

If you're 1-ALLing Progear, you're probably better than me. Keep on shootan!

Haha cheers Speshy but I'm not insecure about my own ability believe it or not, I still feel on the up, as it were.

[Eaglet]

Understood. But do you think it's actual adrenaline?

I'm honestly not sure, but i think it is. Seeing as how adrenaline is secreted in situations that do not involve any real danger as well.

"It's all in the mind" etc. etc.

[yorgje]

once i tried to score and then some fuckin elitist scumbags told me my scores were shit and now I'm just a memepusher

[Special World]

Haha cheers Speshy but I'm not insecure about my own ability believe it or not, I still feel on the up, as it were.

Didn't mean to imply! I think that shmups forum often has a... certain type of attitude problem, where people can't see others' point of view. But even so, it is pretty cool that there's like, one forum in all of (US) shmupping that pretty much dominates the scene. Even if I don't agree with everyone, it's cool that I can [post thing] and actually get a proper response.

[CWM]

I still think that effort is better allocated towards getting more people into shmups in general rather than trying to convince the existing community that they're doing it wrong. Introduce more people, and the ones with the inclination to compete in a single game will eventually float to the top naturally. Unwittingly antagonizing "1cc collectors" by undermining the value of their accomplishments is unlikely to help, I think.

You seem to have spurred Special World into action with it, though, so maybe I'm wrong?

By the way, Special, as someone roughly around your skill level (it seems like), I've recently confirmed the veracity of Prometheus' "You improve the fastest by only playing a single game." claim, I think. Some people have given you advice to the tune of "Play a lot of different shooters to improve your general skills", but I think that's not correct. Hopping from game to game forces you to waste time on adjusting to each one's design sensibilities, which can be wildly different (even if you move between similar styles, like I've learned recently about Cave and Psikyo). Focusing on one game eventually allows you to intuitively grasp the basic gameplay features (like ship speed, hitbox sizes, level and enemy design, etcs), and focus on dodging and shooting better with minimal distractions. If you can't play one game for an extended period of time, try to play similar ones. My three cents, anyway. Grats on your progress in Eschatos.

[Special World]

I definitely agree. There are too few STG fans in the West, and the genre needs more of a presence in general to have the sort of community that it has in other countries. Granted, I think US players are a little bit lazier than many other countries in general when it comes to games, but... that's not a problem? A lot of people don't really want to go all in on one game or genre. It'd probably be good for me, though, as I generally flit around between way too many games. I'm already planning on getting Hatsune Miku DX and Super Mario Maker in September, and the month hasn't even started yet. I just play way too many games, no way around it.

At any rate, people can and should be proud of their 1CCs. If you're way past that point—whether or not you consider yourself to be a good/elite/competent player—then you're obviously gonna focus on something else. But that shouldn't be used as a measure of judgement against people who haven't reached your level of skill yet.

As for myself, this was really a "perfect storm" type situation. I made a topic about how much I love Eschatos. Then Eschatos was announced for a Steam release. I wrote a blog post about why the game is so incredible, which I'll be putting up around the release date. And then a topic comes along saying "what's a game you really love? Play it." So that's what I did. I don't think it really would have happened any other way. But this is my last weekend of break, and so it's as good a time as any to get down with some games. And it just so happened that I was able to get the normal clear and double my score. And then I practiced hard mode today, and went back to normal and ended up doubling *that* score by beating the final boss with five lives remaining(!).

So I think it was worth the stress—but it couldn't have happened any other way, on any other week. So I understand if people see this topic, and they didn't have a perfect storm of events, and the topic just pissed them off. Because it's been pretty incendiary throughout. But I wouldn't say I didn't get any support. People gave me advice on how to go about 1CCing a game, and some ideas seemed good while others seemed like junk. So I took the good ideas and played way too many games for one weekend, and ended up doing pretty well for myself.

[Squire Grooktook]

By the way, Special, as someone roughly around your skill level (it seems like), I've recently confirmed the veracity of Prometheus' "You improve the fastest by only playing a single game." claim, I think. Some people have given you advice to the tune of "Play a lot of different shooters to improve your general skills", but I think that's not correct.

My viewpoint is that playing lots of different shooters without committing to any can improve "fundamental" skills, bu no matter what you do, the fundamentals increase at a sloooooow rate. Like over the course of years. If you want to see real progress in a game, playing that specific game and learning it will help you increase your fundamentals and help you improve at that game overwhelmingly faster.

Same thing applies to fighting games imo.

[Eaglet]

I think you're all taking the "play lots of shooters" part out of context. Of course hopping from game to game will not give you any steady progress and keep you at a similar skill level (if you don't invest any particular effort in any of them). What i mean by playing different games and what i think the others mean as well is that once you've gotten somewhat proficient at one it will be evolving to challenge yourself at another game, with another set of rules.
To me, the most important aspect of not blindedly focusing on one game only is that you're more likely to find the game that really fits with you. One that you always enjoy playing, even when you've put a loooot of hours into it. To me, that game is Garegga. To others it's DOJ, Ketsui or some Touhou game.
I think finding that one or two games that really click with you is one of the things that will help you develop the fastest since you'll never see playing it as a chore, but just fun all the way.
It's weird how after about 3,5 years of on and off playing i'm still excited whenever i get to the start of stage 2 in Garegga and see what the birds will yield that particular run.

[Softdrink 117]

Wow, this thread is interesting.

I tend to agree with Icarus, Bananamatic, chum, and trap. Clears are great -- they're a great sense of accomplishment and a mark of familiarity with a game, and they're always just plain fun to get. But they're not necessarily the end goal. Scoring is where a lot of the depth and complexity of games (and the genre as a whole) starts to emerge.

That's not to say that going for clears is worthless; I have a tendency to clear games that I enjoy, but am not engaged with enough to want to play for score. But I don't make the mistake of thinking that I've mastered the game, or even necessarily done anything all that great. In my mind, the 1CC can be the end goal of your relationship with a game, but that should be a conscious decision on your part, not just an assumption. If building a long list of clears is what satisfies you within this genre, I don't see anything wrong with that at all -- but in my opinion, you should always be trying to figure out what is satisfying for you about these games, instead of taking pride in the number of "achievements" you've unlocked.

That's certainly still my biggest struggle with this genre, and with gaming (and life) in general. I have a few STG accomplishments that I'm somewhat proud of, but most of them aren't clears (or at least, the act of clearing wasn't really what was important), and I don't consider myself an expert at any of the games I play.

So there's $0.02. I'm incredibly sleep deprived and exhausted after running a marathon stream and a convention booth for the last two days, so I hope this post makes sense, lol.

[Special World]

I don't really think people were arguing that clears are an end goal, though. It's just more like... for some of us, a clear is such a massive achievement that we're not even going to look past it until we're at that point. Whereas more skilled players can achieve a clear in the first two days of playing a game, so that clear is basically the starting point for how they want to play the game.

Granted, there are certain games that I approach from a "clear it and it's done" perspective, like R-Type or Lords of Thunder. But that's not typically my mindset going into shooting games. Some just lend themselves to only a 1CC, while others have a larger depth available once that 1CC is achieved.

[yorgje]

This wouldn't be an issue if people just didn't expect to be praised for menial achievements. You're not entitled to anyone's adoration, and if you've already internalized this then who cares if someone else doesn't think a 1cc is anything great, you accomplished it for yourself anyways. IMO until you start playing for yourself, you'll always be perceived as just some status-chasing casual, which isn't necessarily a bad way to live your life (since perceived relative social standing tends to have a large impact on one's satisfaction), but I think that most people who have pushed the games further hold the opinion that this kind of motivation will get you nowhere. Because honestly, once you start to score, anybody who doesn't play your category has no idea how difficult anything you do, and so for the entire 8 years or whatever between when you start scoring and when you WR, your social label is a static "training for WR" even as you see your own gameplay improving by huge leaps and bounds.

[chum]

So what you're saying is that people should delete their 1ccs.

Oh you misguided elitists...

[CWM]

I think you're all taking the "play lots of shooters" part out of context. Of course hopping from game to game will not give you any steady progress and keep you at a similar skill level (if you don't invest any particular effort in any of them). What i mean by playing different games and what i think the others mean as well is that once you've gotten somewhat proficient at one it will be evolving to challenge yourself at another game, with another set of rules.
To me, the most important aspect of not blindedly focusing on one game only is that you're more likely to find the game that really fits with you. One that you always enjoy playing, even when you've put a loooot of hours into it. To me, that game is Garegga. To others it's DOJ, Ketsui or some Touhou game.
I think finding that one or two games that really click with you is one of the things that will help you develop the fastest since you'll never see playing it as a chore, but just fun all the way.
It's weird how after about 3,5 years of on and off playing i'm still excited whenever i get to the start of stage 2 in Garegga and see what the birds will yield that particular run.

I agree, and I think this is the most natural answer to Icarus' "Why do beginners collect so many cheesy clears?" question. My point was more that if you want to improve your "fundamentals", then focusing on a single game or a series of similar games (like Cave bullet hells, or Touhous, or Yagawa auteur-shmups) will let you do that most efficiently.

This wouldn't be an issue if people just didn't expect to be praised for menial achievements.

The only "issue" brought up in this thread is that of competitive players (Bananamatic, Icarus, and others) being unhappy with how many people around here play shmups competitively. They're the ones who want to change the status quo. I certainly haven't seen any "I am so amazing for having cleared Futari Original" posts on this forum.

[iconoclast]

I certainly haven't seen any "I am so amazing for having cleared Futari Original" posts on this forum.

But I thought we decided that people only like Futari because they cleared BL Original

[Shepardus]

Just keep challenging yourself to do things you haven't done before, that's what it's all about, isn't it?

If you love a game enough, you can keep going as far as you want beyond the 1cc, but if not, no reason to force yourself to play something you don't like. Simple as that, really.

I certainly haven't seen any "I am so amazing for having cleared Futari Original" posts on this forum.

But I thought we decided that people only like Futari because they cleared BL Original

I have to admit that is my favorite mode and the only one I've cleared.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

But I thought we decided that people only like Futari because they cleared BL Original

Futari probably does get a fair bit of popularity for having a mode that's easy to 1CC. It's also got a major gap between a bad clear score and a fantastic clear score. If you purposefully ignore scoring and just get enough to get both extends, the rank will never jump up in stages (and can be easily controlled by bombing if you do). A low clear could easily be just 200 - 300 mil. Due to how the scoring works and can be heavily increased by pointblanking, high scores can reach up to the 3 billion range. That's a pretty hefty gap, and a 1CC is really just scratching the surface of what the game offers.

I think that's probably what may be disappointing to score players; seeing capable people posting clears of games but not bothering to go back and invest any additional time on learning the scoring after clearing it. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong on working towards 1CCs because when you're new to the genre or when it's a difficult game, there's no denying it's an achievement. But it really should be seen as a stepping stone - once you clear a game, you should spend a bit of time seeing if you can then improve your score! A great score without a 1CC can feel just as unsatisfying as a 1CC with a bad score...

But that's also assuming you actually enjoy the game's scoring. There's some games out there where the dodging and patterns are fun, but I can't stand the scoring system. I think people should be encouraged to try learning to play for score, but I also don't think players should be shamed if they're really not into a game's scoring system.

[CWM]

I certainly haven't seen any "I am so amazing for having cleared Futari Original" posts on this forum.

But I thought we decided that people only like Futari because they cleared BL Original

I'm new, so I wouldn't know. Then again, I liked Futari less the more I played it, so maybe I should've stopped at the Original clear...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Then again, I liked Futari less the more I played it

Why?

[iconoclast]

I'm sure one of the reasons why Futari is popular is because it has modes that cater to all types of players. There are plenty of easier games to clear than BL Original, though.

I'm new, so I wouldn't know.

I was just referencing shump farm stupidity from the past.

[Kollision]

Why spend so much time on one game only when there are so many out there waiting to be experienced?
I say 1CC with the best result I can and move on.

Life is too short and there are other things I want to do with it as well.

[CWM]

Then again, I liked Futari less the more I played it

Why?

Too much slowdown, to put it simply. I also didn't like the scoring system in Original, trying to learn it was my least fun experience with a shmup to date, I think. Mostly the slowdown, though. I can elaborate, but don't want to derail this thread any further.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think I'll only go for a high score if:

1: I really like the game to the point that I would be replaying it again and again every so often even if there wasn't any score at all.

2: The scoring system is something I genuinely like and enhances the experience for me.

So for example Rayforce and Cho Ren Sha 68k (probably Dangun Feveron too now). All are mad fun, and I would be replaying them every so often even if they didn't have score counters at all. But they also have great scoring systems that cater to what I like (dodge more and don't get hit). So I do try to improve my score in those games, because it's what I would be trying to do anyway. Of course, even these games I don't play on a weekly basis, preferring to keep things fresh. But I have made serious progress on them playing a few credits per month (if that).

On the other hand, Ghouls and Ghosts is a game I replay every so often, and scoring is meaningless in that. So I just play it for survival each time, and am perfectly happy with that.

When I like a game, but not too much to keep replaying it every so often, then:

Why spend so much time on one game only when there are so many out there waiting to be experienced?
I say 1CC with the best result I can and move on.

Life is too short and there are other things I want to do with it as well.

This. Some might say "you haven't really experienced the game if all you did was survive it!" but if the scoring is about doing things that I don't care about, don't like, or have no interest in doing, then I have no qualms about missing out on that part of the game, whilst going for a run of the things I do like.



Also, honestly, I really don't see how people think "this place would be so much more interesting if more people stepped their game up". Would it? I really can't see what that would bring to the forum. Maybe more complete ST threads on the strategy forums, but I don't see it vastly improving the topics of conversation at all. The things you read in super player interviews (like the ones posted earlier) are pretty much the same lines you see repeated on this forum ad nauseum.

I think the absolute best and most interesting posts made here are by guys like BIL, who are just great writers with great tastes and ability to analyze games, but aren't really dedicated score players at all.

[Bananamatic]

Also, honestly, I really don't see how people think "this place would be so much more interesting if more people stepped their game up". Would it? I really can't see what that would bring to the forum. Maybe more complete ST threads on the strategy forums, but I don't see it vastly improving the topics of conversation at all. The things you read in super player interviews (like the ones posted earlier) are pretty much the same lines you see repeated on this forum ad nauseum.

that's because interviews don't discuss the games in detail (and the garegga/batrider ST aside, neither has anyone on this forum, really)
when you have 2 people playing the same game and both could write a paragraph about every single enemy wave, it becomes more interesting, especially if you care about the game too

seriously though, is anyone still wondering why shmups are dying if even people inside the community don't enjoy the aspect that offers the most content?

[Squire Grooktook]

Also, honestly, I really don't see how people think "this place would be so much more interesting if more people stepped their game up". Would it? I really can't see what that would bring to the forum. Maybe more complete ST threads on the strategy forums, but I don't see it vastly improving the topics of conversation at all. The things you read in super player interviews (like the ones posted earlier) are pretty much the same lines you see repeated on this forum ad nauseum.

that's because interviews don't discuss the games in detail (and the garegga/batrider ST aside, neither has anyone on this forum, really)
when you have 2 people playing the same game and both could write a paragraph about every single enemy wave, it becomes more interesting, especially if you care about the game too

So it's the ST's then. Shmups Chat will still be mostly the same then, in my opinion.

seriously though, is anyone still wondering why shmups are dying if even people inside the community don't enjoy the aspect that offers the most content?

It has nothing to do with what people on this forum do or don't do. And most people here do put lots of time into their favorite games. Whether they make progress or focus on the competitive aspect (and many do) of the genre isn't really relevant to that, since they're still getting their "money's worth" and enjoyment out of the game either way.

If I wanted to be a dick, I could probably try to turn this argument around (as some have) and claim that "focusing too much on the hardcore" is what "killed" the genre. But honestly, I don't believe it's either. shmups aren't mainstream because technology (and the gimmicks technology brought) passed the genre by, and most mainstream players followed the shiny.

-

Anyway, one other thought about this thread:

I think, ultimately, a hardcore player telling a casual player to "step up their game" is just as stupid as a casual player telling a hardcore player to "stop being a tryhard and get a life".

We've all probably read or encountered those articles or arguments about the validity of playing to win, going full shmup, making the game your waifu, etc. As Sirlin said, playing a game competitively and playing to win is good, holy, and pure. Because it's the way you enjoy playing it and the way you get the most fun out of the experience.

But you know what else is good, holy, and pure? Other people playing the game the way they like to play it, because they get the most fun out of the experience that way. Telling people to try harder because it's more fun is missing the spirit of these arguments. "I play for fun" is not a dumb statement because playing competitively is the only way to get the most fun, it's a dumb statement because everyone plays the way they find most enjoyable.

Believe me though, I've been there. I've had groups of friends who would play nothing but games that I thought were dumb and boring. And I would think to myself "damn, why don't these guys at least try something more 'hardcore'?". But most of them have at least tried at some point. And at the end of the day, I have to remember that they have their own goals for what they want to experience in a game, and I have mine. If they're not into it, they're not into it, and there's nothing wrong with that. Furthermore, such a thought is especially more shaky on a forum like this, where it's almost guaranteed that nearly everyone has at least tried to play that way.

[Shepardus]

Shmups Chat would likely look pretty similar to what it is now, but Hi Scores and Strategy would have some more activity. And really, the Strategy subforum could really use some more activity. Stuff like the Battle Garegga and Armed Police Batrider STs, and annotated videos like this one of DOJWL or Icarus's Special Demonstrations series, show that there's tons of depth to be explored that, if shared, helps everybody whether they're trying to score or just survive. Unfortunately even if some people know their games at this level of depth, the info I can find is often pretty limited. A more "active" community is more likely to document their findings and contribute to guides, which in turn helps more people dig deeper into games and fully appreciate them. I myself started lurking these forums because of the Battle Garegga ST and trying to find information about Akashicverse -Malicious Wake-.