Bad sequels

[llabnip]

What don't you like about the close attacks, for one?

I generally don't like special attacks of any kind other than an occasional bomb. I generally don't like getting close to enemies and when I do, the last thing I'm thinking about is a close attack - I'm usually backing off. You could argue that I should re-learn to play but I'd rather enjoy the games I enjoy in the style I'm accustomed to enjoying them. For some odd reason I enjoy Radiant Silvergun with the wealth of different attacks so go figure...

Fun and "cadence" (how the game carries itself, I guess),

I'm using cadance to describe the overall pacing and 'vibe' (as D puts it) of the game. Gunbird just gels for me. I dig it. Less so for GB2. Asthetics covers visual style as well as artistic style and level design - all of which I'd give the edge to Gunbird (though I love the crisp colors of the autum-like level in GB2).

The interesting thing is that a few years ago you would be hard pressed to find anyone on these board who didn't think the original Gunbird was superior to GB2, but times have changed. Anyway, shooters are like art to me... I can't always describe the techical merits of a game but I know what I like. For me, the original Gunbird just outpaces GB2 in terms of fun (both in terms of simpler gameplay, better ramp-up difficulty and a more distilled move-shoot-bomb mechanic), asthetics (graphical style, level design, character design) and cadence (pacing and overall 'vibe' as you progress through the game). That, and I can't stand the goofy lollipops on Marion's special attack...

[llabnip]

so I'm not bored by repetitive gameplay so long as the game is fun.

I think "fun" officially has lost all meaning after this sentence. Game = repetitive like working an assembly line, game still miraculously "fun."

Repetitive but fun... like Kaboom. My most favorite game of all time. The game is basically the same from play to play - the bombs will always fall at 13 per second in a combination of patterns (the limit of what could be pushed through the 2600 architecture) but there is still tremendous skill required to master both the long-term concentration needed to keep sharp and short term bursts of hand-eye-coordination to keep the bucket covering ground. I find this mastery fun. I find great games like Ikaruga like that as well... more puzzle than game as you attempt to master predictable enemy and bullet patterns in an attempt to get a bit further on a single credit. Some people enjoy repetitive activities such as workouts or jogging or <fill in activity>. These can be both relaxing and fun even if they are repetitive tasks. I'm sorry if that explanation is not good enough to describe what I mean by 'repetitive but fun'. Most of the games I enjoy (classic arcade and console games from the early Eighties) are often described as 'repetitive' by others... I've come to the conclusion that they are right. But I love them nonetheless.

That's not to imply that all repetitive tasks are fun! Far from it. Your example of working on an assembly line doesn't seem fun to me (though maybe it would be for... someone?! Doubtful). I didn't mean to imply that repetitive=fun (most of the time, it doesn't)... only that there are some simple and repetitive games that I find fun. Gunbird is one of them. I'm not the best with words so I'm guessing this was somehow lost in translation. If so, I apologize.

I also want to restate that I enjoy Gunbird 2 (I actually enjoy pretty much anything by Psikyo!)... just not nearly as much as the original. I realize this opinion is in the minority. But you like what you like.

[Rob]

Repetitive but fun... like Kaboom. My most favorite game of all time. The game is basically the same from play to play - the bombs will always fall at 13 per second in a combination of patterns (the limit of what could be pushed through the 2600 architecture) but there is still tremendous skill required to master both the long-term concentration needed to keep sharp and short term bursts of hand-eye-coordination to keep the bucket covering ground. I find this mastery fun.
...
Some people enjoy repetitive activities such as workouts or jogging or <fill in activity>.

From your description I think I've played a Kaboom clone on the PC long ago and enjoyed it, but I think that game is a lot more variable and challenging than Gunbird. Every game is like a scrambled/arranged version of the last. Gunbird is always the same. There are a lot of 3-bullet type patterns. Pac-Man, Tapper, etc. are fun but a scripted game like Gunbird needs more complexity (attack patterns) to be interesting after multiple plays (I would think).

I think people jog more for health than the activity. If people could sit all day and be healthy very few people would exercise at all. People do repetitive things for health, money or because they are bored. That leaves boredom to explain this!

Another unwanted thought re: shooters as relaxation. I can relax playing a challenging shooter, by being immersed in the challenge. Shooters require some level of thought, even Compile's. This is why they must be well thought out challenges (for me). It's really agitating to not be able shut the brain off completely while being forcefed (forced scrolling as they are) these half-assed challenges. At least in an RPG you can play while comatose. Playing Gunbird is like being painfully aware of the brain operating at 2%.

[Zweihander]

Psyvariar 2.

If you actually need a reason, I will list them...

[Fighter17]

Raystorm and Raycrisis

Disagree, I love Raystorm a lot and I like Raycrisis too.

[PsikyoPshumpPshooterP]

BIG and I will agree on this one


Vasara 2 blowz

[gameoverDude]

Here are a couple I can think of:

Silpheed: The Lost Planet
Shienryu Explosion (Not enough resemblance to Shienryu)

Not so bad but still somewhat disappointing is 1944. Raizing should have given it a few more planes and kept the game in Tate. Don't forget about it, but don't expect it to be another 19XX.

[IlMrm]

That, and I can't stand the goofy lollipops on Marion's special attack...

200 points each!

Does Sengoku Ace and Blaede have auto-powerdowns?

[Ghegs]

Does Sengoku Ace and Blaede have auto-powerdowns?

Ace does, Blade doesn't. I agree that it's a bit unorthodox element, but hardly breaks the game - you just have to time picking up the powerups so you're at full strength when it's really needed.

Oh, and personally the first Gunbird grabbed me more as well - I wanted to clear the first loop and I played the game until I did (and a bit more). The sequel hasn't hit me in the same way, at least not yet.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Salamander II was competent at best.

The game felt far too 'cartoony' compared to it's predecessor. Some of the tunes were a bit cheesy and the rendered graphics looked really out of place. Gameplaywise, it offered no real surprises. A real disappointment for me.

[CIT]

Raystorm and Raycrisis

Disagree, I love Raystorm a lot and I like Raycrisis too.

Fine, if you love them, but do you think they're better than Rayforce/Layer Section?

[captain ahar]

tetsujin oh is a step down from the first.
edit: a BIG step

I would have to disagree. I think it's an improvement in every way. It's more balanced (difficulty), has more weapon choices, better music, etc.

with toaplan games though, i like the rhythm that the older ones had, and tesujin oh, just kills that aspect of the game.

[D]

Actually I don't think you can compare Ray Force to Ray Storn & Ray Crisis. The former is TATE and has 2D graphics. The two latter are YOKO and have 3D graphics.
Game Tengoku 1 & 2 (again TATE and YOKO)
RSG & Iky (again YOKO and TATE)
These are spiritual successors

The gunbird arguments surprise me. someone said that years ago everyone thought GB1 was better than GB2. But, now people are starting to hate GB1. People are starting to hate DP and GB1. This sudden prequal hation fascinates me

[cigsthecat]

For the record, I don't hate Gunbird. It's just that it's in no way a better game than Gunbird 2.

[Ganelon]

Silpheed PC > Silpheed SCD > Silpheed PS2
Spriggan > Spriggan mark2 > Spriggan Powered

[CIT]

Ah, yes, Spriggan. How could we forget?

Although I actually rather like Spriggan powered. The score mechanics are way ahead of their time - bullet scratching in a SNES game, wow! O_o

Speaking of:

Alesta series - I'm talking about MUSHA and Robo Alesta, both great games though (some of my faves). I don't know anything about the earlier incarnations. Was there one for mastersystem or TG16, or was MUSHA the first?

The series in chronological order:

Aleste, MSX
Aleste, Mark III/SMS
Aleste II, MSX
Aleste Gaiden, MSX
Musha Aleste, MD
Super Aleste, SFC
GG Aleste, GG
Dennin Aleste, MCD
Power Strike II, SMS (generally held to be part of the series, though it never carried the name Aleste)
GG Aleste II, GG

[TVG]

i think truxton 2 is nonsense while the first is really great.
the weapons are sucky compared to the first one, the pace is TERRIBLE (kinda like RTF, theres waaaay too much phases with nothing on screen) and the difficulty is poorly balanced, with 10 minutes of basically nothing, then a super tight phase, then nothing, etc...
i tried really hard to like it, but couldnt. it looks neat tho.

[Turrican]

Power Strike II, SMS (generally held to be part of the series, though it never carried the name Aleste)

I would take that out... I mean, the similarities are there of course, because it's Compile... But going by that logic, you should put in there Gunhed as well.

[zinger]

Power Strike II, SMS (generally held to be part of the series, though it never carried the name Aleste)

I would take that out... I mean, the similarities are there of course, because it's Compile... But going by that logic, you should put in there Gunhed as well.

I agree. PSII (SMS) has some 1930's bounty hunters theme, and has nothing to do with the Aleste series. Power Strike II for GameGear though, is the same as GG Aleste II.

[DC906270]

i think truxton 2 is nonsense while the first is really great.
the weapons are sucky compared to the first one, the pace is TERRIBLE (kinda like RTF, theres waaaay too much phases with nothing on screen) and the difficulty is poorly balanced, with 10 minutes of basically nothing, then a super tight phase, then nothing, etc...
i tried really hard to like it, but couldnt. it looks neat tho.

herehere i agree wholeheartedly with this, sir

[Fighter17]

Raystorm and Raycrisis

Disagree, I love Raystorm a lot and I like Raycrisis too.

Fine, if you love them, but do you think they're better than Rayforce/Layer Section?

I like Raystorm better than Rayforce.


I like them in order:

Raystorm
RayForce
Raycrisis

[Rob]

someone said that years ago everyone thought GB1 was better than GB2.

They thought a lot of things while we weren't around.

[Nemo]

The gunbird arguments surprise me. someone said that years ago everyone thought GB1 was better than GB2. But, now people are starting to hate GB1. People are starting to hate DP and GB1. This sudden prequal hation fascinates me

I don't remember people ever liking DP more than DDP, DDP was voted "best shmup ever" basically every time the poll/voting arose. As far as GB, there were a few people that held that opinion with strong feelings so others that hadn't played both much adopted their stance. On the whole, I'm glad people more make informed judgements these days.

Spriggan > Spriggan mark2 > Spriggan Powered

That's not really fair since Spriggan Powered wasn't even done by Compile.

[doctorx0079]

Not a shmup but I have to mention, Nastar Warrior. Oh. The pain.