XRGB-mini Framemeister

[FBX]

I am having a problem getting my SNES to give me a stable image on the XRGB Mini, and I am not sure what is left to try. The thing is, I am fairly certain it worked fine on the XRGB Mini before the latest update (though I am not 100% on it because it's been a while; have been quite busy lately but I don't think I would have put my SNES back together if it wasn't working on the XRGB).

Anyway it's a US 1CHIP-02 model 1 (not a mini). I am getting mixed reports as to whether or not the 1CHIP-02 has CSYNC wired up (I know for a fact the 1CHIP-03 does not). Anyway, I cannot get a stable image on the XRGB Mini with this SNES. Illusion of Gaia for example will give me the intro, but as soon as the title screen comes up, it blanks out and says "no signal". I still hear the music.

To rule out it being my cable, I have a 1CHIP-01 and it works fine in the exact same setup.

I know it is not the console because it works fine over composite and s-video.

Anyway, what can be wrong? Just to rule it out, I ran a wire from the CSYNC pin on the encoder to pin 3 of the SNES A/V port and I got the exact same result.

Since composite video is pin 9, I tried switching the wire from pin 3 to that (just in case my cable was wired up to use composite video for sync or something). Same exact result.

Does anyone know what could be wrong? Thank you.

It could still be the console even if composite and S-Video work fine. One way to get to the bottom of it is to obtain an RGB Sync-on-Luma cable, or if you know how to do it yourself, swap the Csync pin inside your cable over to the Luma assignment. See if it works normally after that. Beyond that, you could also try messing with the Sync_Level, which is normally set to 9 I believe.

[darcagn]

I have the exact same issue going on with my 1CHIP-03 (modded for csync) console on 2.00a firmware. Frequent sync issues (picture bouncing up and down) and dropouts. It happens on a wide variety of games. Adjusting the SYNC_LEVEL setting helps but doesn't fix everything.

[Pasky]

Put a 75 to ground from the sync. Had the same problem with one of mine with Chrono Trigger, the text box would cause the screen to bounce. Guess the sync wasn't being terminated properly. Putting a 75 to ground fixed it.

[CkRtech]

Anyway it's a US 1CHIP-02 model 1 (not a mini). I am getting mixed reports as to whether or not the 1CHIP-02 has CSYNC wired up

I use a 1CHIP-02 as my primary SNES, and I am using pin 3 csync straight out. It was readily available at the multiout with no modification required.

Anyway, what can be wrong? Just to rule it out, I ran a wire from the CSYNC pin on the encoder to pin 3 of the SNES A/V port and I got the exact same result.

You can experience dropouts from the xrgb if your RGB signals are too strong/weak as well. Who made your cable? Is it an official SNES cable? If the capacitors aren't included in the cable or have gone bad (high possibility with official Nintendo RGB cable from what I have read), you will want to replace them. They are there to prevent DC current from flowing through the cable. It is possible that there isn't as much DC to remove from your 1CHIP-01 as there is in your 1CHIP-02, and that is why failed caps aren't needed as much.

This is just a theory. My actual experience with what appeared to be "sync issues" that were related to RGB was when I first hooked up a Capcom CPS2 to the xrgb and hadn't made resistance adjustments yet to get it to a decent output level (arcade RGB out is pretty strong).

[darcagn]

Whoops. I double-checked my setup and I had my SNES hooked up to XRGB-mini with sync-on-cvideo cable (the sync-on-csync was connecting my NES to my BVM). I switched to the sync-on-csync cable and that seems to have fixed the issues I was having, but I'll do some more testing later and make sure.

Either way though, the sync-on-cvideo cable was there and working fine before, so I still think something's changed in this department between firmware revisions.

[Hamburglar]

Yeah it has got to be something with the firmware now that I think about it. Knowing myself I would have never put my SNES back together if it wasn't working properly (I always thoroughly test).

I am using the official SNES RGB cable. I doubt they are the issue as my 1CHIP-01 works fine.

I will try putting a 75ohm resistor on the csync line, thank you! However, the old firmware definitely did not require this. Very odd!

Anyway wish me luck!

[FBX]

Yeah it has got to be something with the firmware now that I think about it. Knowing myself I would have never put my SNES back together if it wasn't working properly (I always thoroughly test).

I am using the official SNES RGB cable. I doubt they are the issue as my 1CHIP-01 works fine.

I will try putting a 75ohm resistor on the csync line, thank you! However, the old firmware definitely did not require this. Very odd!

Anyway wish me luck!

I don't understand how it could be the new firmware when my 1CHIP-03 works fine (and probably hundreds of others) with it. I still say you should give Luma a test as the sync line and see how it goes.

[xamievilx]

With HDMI1 "Direct" on i get a green line on the very bottom of my screen all the way across...i don't when this is off...if i have direct on (i'm assuming this is just pass-through right?) and then switch to RGB for my N64 i have a pink line across the right side...this goes away if i turn off and back on the unit or if HDMI Direct is not on (when i switch from HDMI to RGB) this doesn't occur...

any ideas?

i'm on the newest firmware

[Ed Oscuro]

The OLEDs have a problem with displaying blue colors. Not that it doesn't show a nice blue color, but more that it's speculated that the blue subpixels dies much faster than the others. I think they have improved on this though.

Yeah, that's a well-known problem. Unfortunately the correlation between improvements by researchers in the lab, and what actually appears on store shelves, isn't stated. One can go by the warranty period, but this is driven as much by assumptions on return rate as it is about the usage pattern. They aren't making useful claims for OLED like "100,000 hours!" as seen on the late plasmas.

[Hamburglar]

Yeah it has got to be something with the firmware now that I think about it. Knowing myself I would have never put my SNES back together if it wasn't working properly (I always thoroughly test).

I am using the official SNES RGB cable. I doubt they are the issue as my 1CHIP-01 works fine.

I will try putting a 75ohm resistor on the csync line, thank you! However, the old firmware definitely did not require this. Very odd!

Anyway wish me luck!

I don't understand how it could be the new firmware when my 1CHIP-03 works fine (and probably hundreds of others) with it. I still say you should give Luma a test as the sync line and see how it goes.

I am guessing it is the firmware because this exact SNES works fine on the old Framemeister firmware.

I never heard of using luma for sync. I thought it was only used as one half of s-video?

If I wanted to put a 75ohm resistor on the csync line, I guess I would have to life the csync in pin on the encoder, solder a wire to it, and wire it up to pin 3 or 9 of the AV port?

One thing I conveniently forgot to mention is that I did the Texas Instruments amp mod to this system (which completely gets rid of the vertical bar) but I am not sure why that would matter as 1) it worked fine in the old firmware and 2) csync is wired up (either because 1CHIP-02s have it wired up and also because I ran a wire myself just in case). I definitely installed the mod correctly though because it worked fine on the old fimrware and I was the first person to discover this mod fixes the vertical line


No clue why I no longer can get it to sync with the framemeister though. Is it possible even if the 1CHIP-02s have csync wired up internally by Nintendo that it still requires the 75ohm resistor?

[RGB32E]

they added a fourth subpixel that's all white. This will not only make the panel brighter, but I'm sure it will also lessen the wear on the blue subpixels as well.

The LG WRGB OLED design has all 4 sub-pixels illuminated by the same type of OLED light (yellow/blue stack). Hence, the blue sub pixel is just a color filter, not specifically a blue sub-pixel as found on Samsung's S9C OLED TV. In that case, the blue sub pixel is double the area of the red and green sub pixels, as blue life longevity is actually a concern ("direct-emission" RGB OLED, and not LG WOLED-CF). The primary purpose of the white sub-pixel is to compensate for the lower efficiency of color filter approach.

Too bad Samsung's has halted their pursuit of OLED TV in favor of WCG LCD - not to say that is entirely a bad thing, but it is when they're gaming friendly JS9500 is curved!

[RGB32E]

One thing I conveniently forgot to mention is that I did the Texas Instruments amp mod to this system (which completely gets rid of the vertical bar) but I am not sure why that would matter as 1) it worked fine in the old firmware and 2) csync is wired up (either because 1CHIP-02s have it wired up and also because I ran a wire myself just in case). I definitely installed the mod correctly though because it worked fine on the old firmware

ORLY? You ever try reverting the firmware? Or using a THS7374 instead? I was fairly optimistic in that post.

and I was the first person to discover this mod fixes the vertical line

I think the infamous "Drakon" deserves that credit? (Or not?)

No clue why I no longer can get it to sync with the framemeister though. Is it possible even if the 1CHIP-02s have csync wired up internally by Nintendo that it still requires the 75ohm resistor?

Sounds like your mod or cabling went bad. Best of luck sorting it out!

[FBX]

I never heard of using luma for sync. I thought it was only used as one half of s-video?

The luma signal also carries sync information just as composite video does. In fact, it's currently they way I have the original Playstation hooked up in RGB with Luma as the sync source.

[Xan]

The point of using luma on the Playstation is because with composite there can be some ugly checkerboarding on certain setups.

[RGB32E]

The point of using luma on the Playstation is because with composite there can be some ugly checkerboarding on certain setups.

Yes, this is really the only good reason - there is less cross talk noise on the RGB and audio lines when using luma instead of composite when lower quality cabling is used (e.g. standard cable used by RGA/RGC). It's reportedly much more of a problem with PAL systems than with NTSC systems.

The official Sony RGB cables do not exhibit this problem on NTSC systems since each signal runs on a mini coax.

[TheShadowRunner]

Yes, this is really the only good reason - there is less cross talk noise on the RGB and audio lines when using luma instead of composite when lower quality cabling is used (e.g. standard cable used by RGA/RGC). It's reportedly much more of a problem with PAL systems than with NTSC systems.

The official Sony RGB cables do not exhibit this problem on NTSC systems since each signal runs on a mini coax.

Hmm no, the problem isn't due to the cable's quality nor the system region.
I have a DTL-H1000 and official Sony RGB cable (all pure jpn & unmodded), the checkerboard issue is definitely there when using composite sync and totally absent when using luma sync.

But yeah while it definitely makes a difference on PS/PS2, from my experience on SFC csync = composite vid sync = luma sync, no difference whatsoever between them all.

I also doubt very much this is due to the Mini's firmware revision, Hamburglar I suggest you undo ALL mods and test again your 1CHIP-2...

[CkRtech]

Hmm no, the problem isn't due to the cable's quality nor the system region.
I have a DTL-H1000 and official Sony RGB cable (all pure jpn & unmodded), the checkerboard issue is definitely there when using composite sync and totally absent when using luma sync.

You mean when using composite video, right? There is no native csync output on the PS1/PS2 to my knowledge.

But yeah while it definitely makes a difference on PS/PS2, from my experience on SFC csync = composite vid sync = luma sync, no difference whatsoever between them all.

I don't know about SFC, but I have definitely experienced an ugly signal on a SNES when using composite video as sync on certain displays. As the NTSC consoles have native csync available with only 1CHIP-03 needing a patch cable, csync is the way to go.

I also doubt very much this is due to the Mini's firmware revision, Hamburglar I suggest you undo ALL mods and test again your 1CHIP-2...

Yeah. Hamburglar - that mod you mentioned in the 11th hour is definitely a big variable.

[RGB32E]

Hmm no, the problem isn't due to the cable's quality nor the system region.

A checker board effect can occur due to the type of cable used. Transmitting RGBCv down a 28 or 30 AWG multi-conductor cable (like used by RGA) often results in this artifact.

I have a DTL-H1000 and official Sony RGB cable (all pure jpn & unmodded), the checkerboard issue is definitely there when using composite [video as] sync and totally absent when using luma sync.

I've tested for this before with the cables I've built and didn't find the described issue. Do you claim that this is immediately noticeable on all HW revisions and all software?

But yeah while it definitely makes a difference on PS/PS2, from my experience on SFC csync = composite vid sync = luma sync, no difference whatsoever between them all.

People have also complained about "cross-hatching" with N64 RGB mods as well. *shrug*

[TheShadowRunner]

You mean when using composite video, right? There is no native csync output on the PS1/PS2 to my knowledge.

Oh yes sure, I mean composite video sync.

I don't know about SFC, but I have definitely experienced an ugly signal on a SNES when using composite video as sync on certain displays. As the NTSC consoles have native csync available with only 1CHIP-03 needing a patch cable, csync is the way to go.

Ah, I see, I was talking for the Mini. For SFC on the Mini, from my testing, csync = luma sync = composite video sync, I see strictly no difference. But yeah sure might as well go CSYNC since it's there.

[TheShadowRunner]

A checker board effect can occur due to the type of cable used. Transmitting RGBCv down a 28 or 30 AWG multi-conductor cable (like used by RGA) often results in this artifact.

Very possibly so, but in the PS1 case I believe it's inherent to the signal.

I've tested for this before with the cables I've built and didn't find the described issue. Do you claim that this is immediately noticeable on all HW revisions and all software?

No lol, I wouldn't generalize like this.
All i'm saying is your assumption that this is mainly a PAL / cable issue is wrong.

People have also complained about "cross-hatching" with N64 RGB mods as well. *shrug*

Ok but we're talking virgin PS1 on the Mini.

[RGB32E]

All i'm saying is your assumption that this is mainly a PAL / cable issue is wrong.

Well, I haven't been able to reproduce this on a variety of US HW models. Most of the people who complained about the PlayStation checkerboard effect in this thread were PAL users with generic/non official cables. There are some PlayStation games that do use full screen dithering, so that could explain your experience and why you believe my observations are wrong. Can you explain how the described issue isn't just cross-talk?

[TheShadowRunner]

Well, I haven't been able to reproduce this on a variety of US HW models. Most of the people who complained about the PlayStation checkerboard effect in this thread were PAL users with generic/non official cables. There are some PlayStation games that do use full screen dithering, so that could explain your experience and why you believe my observations are wrong. Can you explain how the described issue isn't just cross-talk?

No, I can't, I just relate my experience.
On a NTSC JPN PS1, using official Sony RGB cable, if I don't use luma sync instead of the factory composite video sync, I get the checkerboard effect. This is very noticeable on Bloody Roar 2 scrolling background in the menu.

[austin532]

People have also complained about "cross-hatching" with N64 RGB mods as well. *shrug*

Ok but we're talking virgin PS1 on the Mini.

I believe cross hatching for N64 and PS1 is used for dithering and as like any other system, it's not noticeable when using composite.

[Fudoh]

On a NTSC JPN PS1, using official Sony RGB cable, if I don't use luma sync instead of the factory composite video sync, I get the checkerboard effect. This is very noticeable on Bloody Roar 2 scrolling background in the menu.

you don't need any game to check that. The orange rectangle logo during the PS1's boot up is usually completely checkerboard-free on NTSC systems, but it's ridden with checkerboard artefacts on PAL systems.

[TheShadowRunner]

you don't need any game to check that. The orange rectangle logo during the PS1's boot up is usually completely checkerboard-free on NTSC systems, but it's ridden with checkerboard artefacts on PAL systems.

Ah hmm I dunno anything about PAL systems.
Btw, the exact same happens (checkerboard when using composite vid sync instead of luma) on a PS2 NTSC JPN SCPH-50000 when it's outtputing PS1 games (also tested with bloody roar's 2 menu).

[Xan]

I believe cross hatching for N64 and PS1 is used for dithering and as like any other system, it's not noticeable when using composite.

The effect in question has zero to do with this. I thought this was mostly known here since it certainly doesn't come up for the first time...

From my experience, this interference typically occurs as a translucent gray "diamond mesh", and is mostly noticeable on solid, saturated color fields rather than the full screen image. That was with a generic RGB cable and modded PAL PS1. I can't exactly remember if it occured on both PVMs and consumer CRTs, but it was rather obvious on the PVM.

And as far as the N64 is concerned, I don't think it's one of those systems with widely noticeable dithering, at all. The effect is probably more visible on early PS2 games than on the N64. This is most likely a myth that stems from this video. Cheap N64 S-Video cables just use the composite pin instead of luma. Watch the fixed version and you will see that the "dithering" on S-Video is gone.

[Hamburglar]

I also doubt very much this is due to the Mini's firmware revision, Hamburglar I suggest you undo ALL mods and test again your 1CHIP-2...

Yeah. Hamburglar - that mod you mentioned in the 11th hour is definitely a big variable.

While I understand why you'd say that, keep in mind it definitely worked when I first did the mod many moons ago. And my system was never opened again since then.

I was the lunatic who bought like 14 different SNES motherboard revisions a few years back in an effort to get rid of the vertical line (I even physically desoldered the encoder from the SNES and manually wired all pins externally to rule out picture noise) when one day a few years ago I decided to try the TI amps I had leftover from the N64 I was modding and it not only worked but got rid of the vertical bar. I do this out of passion for old consoles, I don't sell them or do mod services for people or anything.

Anyway I have the resistors for the R, G, and B lines. I lifted the output pins on the encoder, and tapped them directly to the A/V port. I even desoldered the R, G, and B pins from the A/V port itself so it was no longer even touching the motherboard; only the wire/resistor coming from the R, G, and B input lines.

I also discovered a few years ago that mounting a female s-video port on an SNES gets rid of the vertical line but I will be honest, I found that one out by accident (it was an SNES mini and quality s-video cables were becoming hard to find). I just adapted the SNES mini mod to work with an actual s-video port. Simple and yet it fixed it.

Anyway my point is that I definitely left out an important piece of information but I definitely am aware of the SNES' inner workings and didn't screw anything and to please trust me when I say that I don't think it's my mod, I think it is something with the Framemeister. For the few seconds that I get a picture in sync, the image is beautiful. If it looked strange I would agree it's probably the mod, but it looks great for the few moments it works.

I managed to get Zelda 3 to play for about 5 minutes but then the picture just completely went out of sync again.

One thing I conveniently forgot to mention is that I did the Texas Instruments amp mod to this system (which completely gets rid of the vertical bar) but I am not sure why that would matter as 1) it worked fine in the old firmware and 2) csync is wired up (either because 1CHIP-02s have it wired up and also because I ran a wire myself just in case). I definitely installed the mod correctly though because it worked fine on the old firmware

ORLY? You ever try reverting the firmware? Or using a THS7374 instead? I was fairly optimistic in that post.

and I was the first person to discover this mod fixes the vertical line

I think the infamous "Drakon" deserves that credit? (Or not?)

No clue why I no longer can get it to sync with the framemeister though. Is it possible even if the 1CHIP-02s have csync wired up internally by Nintendo that it still requires the 75ohm resistor?

Sounds like your mod or cabling went bad. Best of luck sorting it out!

I did not try reverting the firmware. I actually thought that was something that companies weren't really allowing any longer (like they do on phones). I will revert and report back.

Drakon and I did go back and forth for months trying to figure the vertical line issue out (I also went back and forth with many other people on other forums as well); I think he might have replaced the actual encoder in his with a Sony one or something eventually. He's more of an s-video and CRT guy anyway. But yeah I was the one that figured out that the THS 7314 inside the SNES fixed the vertical bar (I am not trying to pat myself on the back or anything, it was just something I was obsessed with). This was around the same time some very smart dude (I forget his username) on the Sega16 forums was posting fixes that require these large capacitors in several different places (I don't think the actual solution was ever solidified though). Around that time I really got frustrated and fed up, I put the amp in (simply because the A/V pins and encoder are very similar on an N64 and I figured I would bypass the encoder entirely; lifting the pins just like on the N64 mod) and it fixed it to my amazement (someone smarter than me looked up the datasheet of the THS 7314 after I told them the fix and he said it's because the 7314 has an "image cleaner" built in). This was like my passion project for like 2 years straight (this is going back a few years now). I have no idea if his mod with the Sony encoder fixes the line or not. I never bothered to try it because the encoders are quite a bit more expensive than the amps and also the image quality is perfect if you are using RGB from the SNES after installing the amp and bypassing the internal RGB outputs so a new encoder seems excessive unless you are trying to remove the vertical line and you use composite or something.

It's definitely the THS 7314. I know this because I was testing with extras I had from my N64 RGB mod (I think Digikey or Mouser made me buy 5 at a time).

It is definitely not the cabling, because I have 3 SNES/N64 RGB cables (two of them are the official Nintendo brand SFC ones rewired for Euro scart as my XRGB Mini has the Euro adapter) and all 3 of them give me the same issue.

Anyway I'm rambling; sorry. Just trying to answer all replies. Hopefully I can figure out why I keep losing sync. I would swear it is the lack of csync in late SNES models but supposedly the 1CHIP-02 has it wired properly and even if it doesn't, I manually wired it up to pin 3 and still, I lose sync constantly.

I did also mod it with an SPDIF/TOSlink/optical audio port but unless that's drawing so much power along with the amp and an SD2SNES that I am losing sync because of it, I can't think of what the heck else is going on.

[Chocograph]

Does the amp fix background noise that you see on the dark blue/green colors? Static noise or power noise or whatever...I removed the vertical bar with the capacitor on the power line and the video chip so that's not a problem at all anymore. I barely see the other image noise but if it's possible to do something about it I'd like to try for fun.

[Hamburglar]

Does the amp fix background noise that you see on the dark blue/green colors? Static noise or power noise or whatever...I removed the vertical bar with the capacitor on the power line and the video chip so that's not a problem at all anymore. I barely see the other image noise but if it's possible to do something about it I'd like to try for fun.

Yeah it does, the image is perfect when you bypass the internal encoder.

The only thing you'll still see is if you are using an SNES Mini, there's a very obscure "ghosting" abnormality that is almost impossible to notice (even for an obsessed lunatic like me) and that is if in the first stage of Super Mario World, if you go near one of the mountains (they are in the background) you can kinda see a ghost/silhouette of Mario in the mountains. It's almost completely impossible to notice under any normal conditions though. Anyway my point is that it's an issue with the all-in-one chip design and the amp won't fix it.

Nothing looks better than a 1CHIP with the Texas Instruments amp mod, though. It's perfection!

[Fudoh]

Nothing looks better than a 1CHIP with the Texas Instruments amp mod, though. It's perfection!

what's the downside to just keeping the original encoder and applying the known fix for the vertical bar problem ?