XRGB-mini Framemeister

[graubart]

after applying my v1.11 settings to the v2.00a fw, the picture looks less sharp and smeary to me. can somebody confirm this?

[eightbitminiboss]

after applying my v1.11 settings to the v2.00a fw, the picture looks less sharp and smeary to me. can somebody confirm this?

If you just upgraded, then settings may have defaulted to their original settings. Verify you are outputting at your proper viewing resolution.

[graubart]

after applying my v1.11 settings to the v2.00a fw, the picture looks less sharp and smeary to me. can somebody confirm this?

If you just upgraded, then settings may have defaulted to their original settings. Verify you are outputting at your proper viewing resolution.

[nissling]

What consoles are you using? You should recalibrate from scratch anyway rather than just using your old settings over again.

[RowanDDR]

I'm about to order a Framemeister (yay)! What adaptor(s) will I need? I suppose my consoles fall into two categories;

• RGB Scart: SNES (PAL with 60hz switch), Dreamcast (PAL), N64 (Jap, RGB modded), V-Saturn (NTSC?).
• Component: PlayStation 2 (PAL), GameCube (PAL)

So although most of my consoles are technically PAL, I don't run any games at 50hz, they're all either modded for 60hz (SNES) or running USA 60hz games anyway (via modchip etc).

Am I right in thinking I need this for component?
http://solarisjapan.com/collections/mic ... ble-female

...and this for so called "Euro SCART"? (we just call it SCART here in the UK)
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/eur ... r-for-sale
or do I need the CSYNC version?? My SNES model is a "3 dots of doom" version, if that matters.

Other concern here is that my N64 is JAP, so does that mean my N64 RGB SCART cable is JP21 rather than EuroSCART? (I'm guessing no, as I've only ever used this with normal TV's here in the UK)

Thanks guys!

[nissling]

Am I right in thinking I need this for component?
http://solarisjapan.com/collections/mic ... ble-female

Yes.

...and this for so called "Euro SCART"? (we just call it SCART here in the UK)
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/eur ... r-for-sale

Yes.

or do I need the CSYNC version??

No. You can adjust the Sync level on the Framemeister anyway.

Other concern here is that my N64 is JAP, so does that mean my N64 RGB SCART cable is JP21 rather than EuroSCART? (I'm guessing no, as I've only ever used this with normal TV's here in the UK)

What matters is how the cable is wired. If you haven't had any issues with running it on a European consumer set there's no reason to worry. JP21 is basically impossible to find on a TV in Europe.

Good luck!

[FBX]

after applying my v1.11 settings to the v2.00a fw, the picture looks less sharp and smeary to me. can somebody confirm this?

If you just upgraded, then settings may have defaulted to their original settings. Verify you are outputting at your proper viewing resolution.

Check each and every setting to make sure it was the same as before.

[eightbitminiboss]

after applying my v1.11 settings to the v2.00a fw, the picture looks less sharp and smeary to me. can somebody confirm this?

If you just upgraded, then settings may have defaulted to their original settings. Verify you are outputting at your proper viewing resolution.

I can read. Settings may have changed is all I'm saying. You might want to check just in case. 1.11 to 2.00 is a big jump.

[kjoy045]

Hey Guys!!

Thank you for the help with the N64! I used the settings someone had listed above and it does make a difference. I should mention the pawn shop had the n64 plugged in composite to a lcd television and looked incredible not sure how maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me. This leads me to my next two questions I guess.

Scanlines made a huge difference when I turned them on for N64 I actually enjoyed them however the spacing on them in 720p looks off and I can only seem to change the lower two settings for the lines anyone have any best case suggestions? Also any idea where to get the svideo only cable for n64 I'm starting to think the mod board will be less expensive @ 25$

#2 I am using a ps2 slimeline connected via component to dterminal and playing ps1 games through this for now (not sure if ps3 direct hdmi would be better). FBX I tried loading your profile for ps1 on ps2 and found the picture to be incredibly noisy and also didnt fill the screen? Just to confirm I should still have this set on 1080p 4:3 settings? Any ideas for this one?


Thanks guys for any and all help

[FBX]

Hey Guys!!

#2 I am using a ps2 slimeline connected via component to dterminal and playing ps1 games through this for now (not sure if ps3 direct hdmi would be better). FBX I tried loading your profile for ps1 on ps2 and found the picture to be incredibly noisy and also didnt fill the screen? Just to confirm I should still have this set on 1080p 4:3 settings? Any ideas for this one?

No idea why it would be noisy. It's perfectly clean on my end. But yes, there's going to be a black border on the top and bottom in order for the pixels to be properly scaled. Remember that almost all PS1 content is 240p, so scaling that 4x would come up with 960 pixels tall, which is obviously shorter than 1080. If you scale to 5x, then you get 1200 pixels tall, which will cut off a portion of the top and bottom of the graphics on a 1080 screen. Lastly, scaling to 4x like my profiles does ensures the scanlines will be uniform on a 1080p display.

So the 4x scale mode is a benefit of 2-fold: Uniform pixels and uniform scanlines (if you want scanlines).

Stretching the graphics to fill the screen would lose both those advantages, and cause scrolling artifacts on the vertical axis.

[Ed Oscuro]

ps2 slimeline

Well that's your problem right there

The PS2 certainly does have that reputation, and I don't know whether it is affected by choosing the phat (HDD compatible) or slimeline models. I didn't see any video noise on my own slim, but I was using all analog equipment (the XRGB 2+ is analog, I believe) which seems to be more forgiving than the Framemeister.

[RowanDDR]

Thanks nissling

[MojoBox]

Hey Guys!!

Thank you for the help with the N64! I used the settings someone had listed above and it does make a difference. I should mention the pawn shop had the n64 plugged in composite to a lcd television and looked incredible not sure how maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me. This leads me to my next two questions I guess.

Scanlines made a huge difference when I turned them on for N64 I actually enjoyed them however the spacing on them in 720p looks off and I can only seem to change the lower two settings for the lines anyone have any best case suggestions? Also any idea where to get the svideo only cable for n64 I'm starting to think the mod board will be less expensive @ 25$

I'm not immediately sure about the scanline spacing being off. Are you using a 720p or 1080p TV? If you are using a 720p TV then it's probably unevenly scaled because most 720p TVs are actually 768 lines. If you are on a 1080P tv and are outputting at 720p it should be correct. I have noticed before an apparent uneveness of scanlines on the N64 due to contrast/brightness/saturation settings, call it an optical illusion. Try toning down saturation and/or brightness or increasing the value of the scanlines themselves to alleviate this.

Also, there are two pairs of settings for scanlines based on your output resolution. One set is for use at 720/480p ouput and one at 1080p output (used to be called Scan A and Scan B, but I think that's changed). Depending on your current settings one of the two sets will be grayed out and can't be changed.

As for the pawn shop, if it was an older 720p LCD than it almost certainly handles 240p content better than a newer 1080p set will. 1080 is non-integer multiple of 240 while 720 is exactly x3 (and 768 is 3.2, while 1080 is x4.5) so the scaling is better. A friend of mine has my old 720p Westinghouse LCD and the N64 straight in to it via S-Video looks SUPERB, better than via the Mini (which, incidentally, I hooked up to it and got uneven scanline spacing). But it's literally the only thing it does better than my 1080P LG so I can deal.

Speaking of S-Video, you can get a great set on Amazon by searching for "Gamecube S-Video Cable (Bulk Packaging)" and choosing ZTNetStore as the seller under Used & New. Note their item description: "This item is new, in bulk packaging and is GUARANTEED to be as pictured with ONLY the s-video connection. NO YELLOW COMPOSITE." That is what you want. Any of the other sellers will send you a S-Video/Composite hybrid and those are not wired properly and will only output composite signal over the S-Video connector. It will cost you about $14 shipped assuming your in the US, and they will work for SNES/N64/Gamecube.

Sorry to write a book, but this happens to be right up my alley

[darthjones]

How do games look when using a non-RGB NES with a Framemeister? Are there any online resource with actual screenshots? All of the screenshots that I've seen so far feature RGB-enabled systems...

[eightbitminiboss]

How do games look when using a non-RGB NES with a Framemeister? Are there any online resource with actual screenshots? All of the screenshots that I've seen so far feature RGB-enabled systems...

Not a screenshot, but here's a YouTube of it in action on a AV Famicom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6ZDMvGZcd4

Might have to jump a few minutes into it and realize he just got the thing and may not be setup correctly.

[nissling]

I think they're using a DVD recorder for footage while playing through the Framemeister on their TV so it doesn't show what composite looks like on the Mini.

Konsolkongen has given us some screenshots though.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 92#p862092

[austin532]

How do games look when using a non-RGB NES with a Framemeister? Are there any online resource with actual screenshots? All of the screenshots that I've seen so far feature RGB-enabled systems...

It looks OK. Not terrible and better then just hooking it straight to the TV but it's nowhere near as good as RGB. Dot crawl and color bleeding is obvious. If you tweak around with the settings and enable scanlines you can get it looking decent.

[FBX]

How do games look when using a non-RGB NES with a Framemeister? Are there any online resource with actual screenshots? All of the screenshots that I've seen so far feature RGB-enabled systems...

9:38 to 9:45 in this video shows a direct side-by-side comparison of composite with and without usage of a Framemeister:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43dzrCAfU3A

[darthjones]

Thanks for the info. Looks like I need to upgrade my NES and get RGB cables for my other systems before investing in a Framemeister. Good to know...

[kjoy045]

Hey Guys!!

#2 I am using a ps2 slimeline connected via component to dterminal and playing ps1 games through this for now (not sure if ps3 direct hdmi would be better). FBX I tried loading your profile for ps1 on ps2 and found the picture to be incredibly noisy and also didnt fill the screen? Just to confirm I should still have this set on 1080p 4:3 settings? Any ideas for this one?

No idea why it would be noisy. It's perfectly clean on my end. But yes, there's going to be a black border on the top and bottom in order for the pixels to be properly scaled. Remember that almost all PS1 content is 240p, so scaling that 4x would come up with 960 pixels tall, which is obviously shorter than 1080. If you scale to 5x, then you get 1200 pixels tall, which will cut off a portion of the top and bottom of the graphics on a 1080 screen. Lastly, scaling to 4x like my profiles does ensures the scanlines will be uniform on a 1080p display.

So the 4x scale mode is a benefit of 2-fold: Uniform pixels and uniform scanlines (if you want scanlines).

Stretching the graphics to fill the screen would lose both those advantages, and cause scrolling artifacts on the vertical axis.

I think maybe it is the fact that I messed with multiple settings at the same time and this caused things to go a little wild. My television is 1080p so I will try again tonight on the ps2 slim and a ps3 hardwired and see what I get for ps1 performance.

For the scanlines on the n64 because my tv is 1080p but the n64 settings has it set at 720p. I do notice a distinct deviation in spacing. I will try changing the settings mentioned in another post and see what success I have. I will post pictures if I have no success from that standpoint as well and see how it goes. I will do the same with the ps1 results.

Anyone have any experience with sega saturn profiles?

Thanks

Kyle

[Artemio]

Because on the test suite you don't actually have 480i/p material. You have 240p material output as 480i/p.

The suite does have material at 480p, in the Wii, DC and GC versions. Those tests in particular - horizontal and vertical lines - are shown in 480p, as well as the grids and checkerboard.

[Fudoh]

Of course you're right. I was refering to the patterns he was using.

Artemio, if you want to add something useful especially for the Mini, some diagonal line patterns in 480p would exactly show if the Mini's V_SCALER setting it properly set for 480i/p material or for 240p material.

[FBX]

Of course you're right. I was refering to the patterns he was using.

Artemio, if you want to add something useful especially for the Mini, some diagonal line patterns in 480p would exactly show if the Mini's V_SCALER setting it properly set for 480i/p material or for 240p material.

Also a slow vertical scroll test with those same diagonal lines for 240p, 480i, and 480p would be awesome. I use vertical scrolling to home in on integer-based scaling of the Framemeister, so that would be a big help in that department.

[RGB32E]

Any of you use this circuit to connect a Dreamcast to the XRGB-mini?

[eightbitminiboss]

Any of you use this circuit to connect a Dreamcast to the XRGB-mini?

Isn't that pretty much what the beharius' Toro does?

[Artemio]

Of course you're right. I was refering to the patterns he was using.

Artemio, if you want to add something useful especially for the Mini, some diagonal line patterns in 480p would exactly show if the Mini's V_SCALER setting it properly set for 480i/p material or for 240p material.

Also a slow vertical scroll test with those same diagonal lines for 240p, 480i, and 480p would be awesome. I use vertical scrolling to home in on integer-based scaling of the Framemeister, so that would be a big help in that department.

Working on both, will develop the wii version first and beta test it if you are interested.

[darcagn]

Isn't that pretty much what the beharius' Toro does?

Yes. I created that image before beharius made the Toro though.

RGB32E -- I still use that circuit to play DC games, have never had a problem with it. It is basically the combination of the Dreamcast VGA-out circuit plus a h+v sync combiner circuit found online. beharius also gave me a free Toro to beta test, and of course it works just the same, but I still use my own cable because it's a nice all-in-one solution. pics here: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 -- the toggle switch that's built into the SCART connector is the 15/31khz mode switch for games that don't support VGA mode. the third cable coming out of the dreamcast in the last pic is spdif.

[RGB32E]

Isn't that pretty much what the beharius' Toro does?

Yes. I created that image before beharius made the Toro though.

RGB32E -- I still use that circuit to play DC games, have never had a problem with it. It is basically the combination of the Dreamcast VGA-out circuit plus a h+v sync combiner circuit found online. beharius also gave me a free Toro to beta test, and of course it works just the same, but I still use my own cable because it's a nice all-in-one solution. pics here: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 -- the toggle switch that's built into the SCART connector is the 15/31khz mode switch for games that don't support VGA mode. the third cable coming out of the dreamcast in the last pic is spdif.

Thanks darcagn! Have you compared that circuit to what the Toro does for sync combining?

I checked with Tim about the circuit and was given feedback that it can be improved by adding a 470 ohm series resistor on the CSYNC output to make it more compatible with 75ohm sync inputs as found on the XRGB-mini (SCART too), increase longevity of the IC, and reduce crosstalk in cabling. The original description for the original circuit (VGA2RGBS) stated that the output was intended for >1kOhm sync input and not 75ohm, hence the 470 ohm resistor. Going to give this a try soon, and integrate it into the VGA box I built that features a metal enclosure and fancy RCA connectors!

Looks like your DC is SPDIF modded! Nice!

[opt2not]

Yes. I created that image before beharius made the Toro though.

RGB32E -- I still use that circuit to play DC games, have never had a problem with it. It is basically the combination of the Dreamcast VGA-out circuit plus a h+v sync combiner circuit found online. beharius also gave me a free Toro to beta test, and of course it works just the same, but I still use my own cable because it's a nice all-in-one solution.

Could I just use this to build a H+V sync combiner for other applications? Minus the RGB lines? I've been looking around at different sync combining circuits to build, and while I'm still a noob at electronics stuff, your image is so simple to understand, I feel confident I can build this.

[RGB32E]

This is the non-Dreamcast specific schematic:



So, R1-4, D1-2, and C1-3 can be omitted for generic use. Also add a series 470 ohm resistor to IC1 pin 11 should be added for either application, and connect CSYNC output.