Are you an Introvert/Anti-Social person ?

[Xyga]

2 kinds of people:
1) Victim of societal programming
2) Broken free of societal programming

Yeah and group #2 is usually poorer, though not obsessed with wealth as much as #1.

But seriously broken harbour, 30% ? that's very optimistic IMHO. I'd say #2 are more about 10% or even 5% now.
I don't count how many people I thought were #2 and totally came out as #1 when shit started hitting the fan a few years ago.

[broken harbour]

But seriously broken harbour, 30% ?

That's been my experience, your mileage may vary.

[system11]

I would argue that many people out there don't know that there's a choice between the blue and red pills.

That's because there isn't.

There's a whole box of red and blue pills, one pair for every decision you make on every day of your life.

[broken harbour]

This is sort of related...

For the last number of years, I've lived with a motto of "What you put in front of you is what you get". So if you choose to believe that everyone around you is terrible, they will live up to that expectation. -Potentially making you more introverted and/or anti social (those aren't the same thing but for the sake of keeping this thread somewhat on track...)

At my day job I have several subordinates. When I started 3 years ago, within a month I figured out they were slackers, didn't think ahead, and seemed generally dishonest and unmotivated. Instead of firing them at the first opportunity, I instead decided to make it known to them that I expect a lot from my employees. What happened? They pulled up their socks and all of them still work here, they still occasionally drive me nuts but the batting average is much improved. I would argue that what I put in front of myself (in this case: I have good employees and expect them to perform at a high level) in turn got me just that. Had I just accepted the fact that they were useless then that's exactly how they would have acted.

Same in my personal life, my friends and family (for the most part) became way better people when I decided that they could be better people, and when they needed to know that, I politely told them.

I would argue that many people out there don't know that there's a choice between the blue and red pills.

That's because there isn't.
There's a whole box of red and blue pills, one pair for every decision you make on every day of your life.

I personally don't think it's that complicated, I find (again its just my personal experience) that people are either awakened to the societal matrix of reality around them, or not, or in extreme cases, so heavily invested in the matrix that they refuse to awaken themselves.

[Squire Grooktook]

Nah I think System11's viewpoint is more accurate.

[broken harbour]

Nah I think System11's viewpoint is more accurate.

Defeatist thinking. Understandable, as it's the path of least resistance, so it's the path most take.

I prefer the world view that I'm in charge of my own destiny, for better or worse. Not in absolute terms obviously, we can't always control the wind but we can adjust our sails, so to speak.

I used to be extremely introverted, but it wasn't making me happy, so I changed that aspect of myself, because I steer my boat on the sea of life. Every aspect of your personality is a choice, many people don't understand that, or don't want to understand it.


*** This concludes my weird rambling about personality traits, the matrix, and your personal destiny on a video game forum. ***

[MintyTheCat]

Jesus, where in England is all that the norm? I've lived in the East and South East, have friends up North and in London. And it's been easy not to associate with arseholes.

Anyway, introverted isn't the same as antisocial so the title is a bit odd.

I agree with your point anti-social vs. introverted - one is passive the other is active.

I've lived in a few places in the UK. It does vary. Main issue is how the place is being run these days. But there's a definite "every man for himself" and "up yours" kind of thing in place these days. It lacks a social fabric. I find it most pronounced between those in their 45+ to 60 age range.

Best examples of things brimming over would be the Student Demos back in 2010 and the riots in 2011 around the country.

London, by far is the nastiest place above all I can handle a couple of days then it's 'eject! eject!' for me.

UK generally has a very poor respect for quality of service, doing a good job, fostering pride in ones work, etc. Essentially, the arse fell out of it and there is little to no semblance of social fabric these days.

Some account of how things changed and why:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Careless-State- ... less+state

[broken harbour]

UK generally has a very poor respect for quality of service, doing a good job, fostering pride in ones work, etc. Essentially, the arse fell out of it and there is little to no semblance of social fabric these days.

I see this in Canada where I live as well. I think that is the general feeling in the air in most western countries.

A friend of mine from here moved to Tokyo 2 years ago and is coming back for a visit in September, he's already shuddering at the thought of having to order food at a restaurant and getting whatever the staff feels like giving him.

[Squire Grooktook]

Nah I think System11's viewpoint is more accurate.

Defeatist thinking.

No, I think it's the opposite. You keep being a decent person every day and putting in effort. You keep "taking the red pill" instead of just taking it once and being done with it.

[MintyTheCat]

I feel that Broken Harbour is largely getting at out perspectives being chosen based on our own interests.

We cannot get into the Psychology and Philosophy here but I agree - to an extent you select what you will and interpret as you can based on many factors: culture, education, social position, status, religion, etc. All experiences essentially give you a vector that you use to filter all around you at any point in time and it changes constantly.

If I go through a bad situation or experience I try to see the good in it and see what I can understand from it. I also "bound" situations - 'what's the worst that can happen? Does it matter? Could it matter? Do I care?".

I got into a discussion with a woman last week in Berlin and she was fighting some statements I had made. For her she wanted to either accept or reject a concept outside her remit. For me, I can pretty much put my head in and out of a set of concepts as I need to. I understand that there are many forms of Logic and sometimes logic never matters. The main issue I find is that each 'type' of person tends to idealise one form and way over all others. E.g. some people value intelligence over all things. To me this is a joke. I feel most people have only part of the story and only a tiny part of the necessary understanding.

Ok, that's enough bullshit for one evening

[Shepardus]

Nah I think System11's viewpoint is more accurate.

Defeatist thinking. Understandable, as it's the path of least resistance, so it's the path most take.

I prefer the world view that I'm in charge of my own destiny, for better or worse. Not in absolute terms obviously, we can't always control the wind but we can adjust our sails, so to speak.

I used to be extremely introverted, but it wasn't making me happy, so I changed that aspect of myself, because I steer my boat on the sea of life. Every aspect of your personality is a choice, many people don't understand that, or don't want to understand it.


*** This concludes my weird rambling about personality traits, the matrix, and your personal destiny on a video game forum. ***

I don't see how your world view, that you're in charge of your own destiny and your personality through choices, is at odds with what system11 said about there being a red pill and blue pill for every decision you make rather than people being binary. If anything they're supporting views.

I've met plenty of very smart people who haven't been "awakened" to how much more awesome shmups are than whatever casual mobile games or other "mainstream" games they play, but they simply don't care. That doesn't mean they don't care about other parts of their lives, though, nor does it mean that they're "blue pill" sheeple who refuse to think independently.

[MintyTheCat]

Nah I think System11's viewpoint is more accurate.

Defeatist thinking.

No, I think it's the opposite. You keep being a decent person every day and putting in effort. You keep "taking the red pill" instead of just taking it once and being done with it.

Ah, this is a carry over from Catholic influenced cultures Some times the negative is very necessary. Think of it as something that offers you traction. Splitting the world into 'good' vs. 'bad' you get no where

I came to the conclusion that there is only will.

I forgive you completely for applying this "good" and "bad" filter - it is what they try to have us all yield to in our type of cultures.

It breaks down at higher Ethics and indeed it breaks down completely for anything that is a physical phenomena - e.g. boiling water is neither "good" or "bad" - it simply is.

[broken harbour]

Ah, I think I misunderstood what system11 was getting at. When I read his statement I took it as 'there's no choice between the red and blue pill'. Many people feel like they don't have a choice over their destiny, who they are etc.. either because they haven't awakened to the fact that they do have a choice, or they choose to believe they don't have a choice because frankly it's way easier to go through live that way.

Am I making sense? I'm extremely sleep deprived today...

[Squire Grooktook]

Ah, this is a carry over from Catholic influenced cultures Some times the negative is very necessary. Think of it as something that offers you traction. Splitting the world into 'good' vs. 'bad' you get no where

I came to the conclusion that there is only will.

I forgive you completely for applying this "good" and "bad" filter - it is what they try to have us all yield to in our type of cultures.

It breaks down at higher Ethics and indeed it breaks down completely for anything that is a physical phenomena - e.g. boiling water is neither "good" or "bad" - it simply is.

That's an entirely different philosophical debate though.

I don't really agree with your standpoint on a few levels. I have my own view on love, the will, what is the good, etc. but I only talk about such things with extremely close friends/family. Definitely one way in which I'm introverted, heh.

Anyway, my point was that I don't see the whole "one day you wake up and are enlightened and you're great" viewpoint. Whatever you apply that to, the binary view isn't really accurate.

[MintyTheCat]

Ah, I think I misunderstood what system11 was getting at. When I read his statement I took it as 'there's no choice between the red and blue pill'. Many people feel like they don't have a choice over their destiny, who they are etc.. either because they haven't awakened to the fact that they do have a choice, or they choose to believe they don't have a choice because frankly it's way easier to go through live that way.

Am I making sense? I'm extremely sleep deprived today...

There was a philosopher a while back (forget who and it barely matters) that took the notion of a hybrid concept as something formed from two existing concepts.

In German: Hand (hand) + Schuh (shoe) = Handschuh (glove)

That would be the Delta version of the concept applied - two converge. The other version is the Star whereby if you are given two concepts they diverge and I would encourage anyone to breaks all concepts until you cannot go any further.

There is always another option so long as we can perceive it - and that's the hard part, we get fixed all the time. Applied to Shmups you will know exactly what I mean "no, there will never be a bullet there" / "no, an enemy would NEVER appear there"/etc. But we all know that there is a bullet/enemy there and this is the action of our hard ideas set.

We do need to have things concrete though for many things but not for everything.

The real ability is to be able to summon both and all forms as and when we need them but to banish them as soon as we do not - that's the really hard to accomplish

[broken harbour]

There is always another option so long as we can perceive it

That's what I'm getting at, #1's tend to have blinders on limiting their perception, #2's have broadened their perception and now see/understand they have choices they didn't see before.

OK, i'm not even sure I'm making sense to myself anymore, time for a nap...

[MintyTheCat]

Ah, this is a carry over from Catholic influenced cultures Some times the negative is very necessary. Think of it as something that offers you traction. Splitting the world into 'good' vs. 'bad' you get no where

I came to the conclusion that there is only will.

I forgive you completely for applying this "good" and "bad" filter - it is what they try to have us all yield to in our type of cultures.

It breaks down at higher Ethics and indeed it breaks down completely for anything that is a physical phenomena - e.g. boiling water is neither "good" or "bad" - it simply is.

That's an entirely different philosophical debate though.

To you perhaps but to me they are all valid and the same.

I don't really agree with your standpoint on a few levels. I have my own view on love, the will, what is the good, etc. but I only talk about such things with extremely close friends/family. Definitely one way in which I'm introverted, heh.

I do not need you to agree with me You either need to agree with me or not agree with me for yourself.
Indeed the only truth you can ever know is the one you perceive for yourself and again it changes all the time
What is good or bad is the current result of those factors I listed in an earlier post and to all the experiences you have passed through.

Anyway, my point was that I don't see the whole "one day you wake up and are enlightened and you're great" viewpoint. Whatever you apply that to, the binary view isn't really accurate.

I would say as our lives are a continuum and we may indeed find one or many or no points of enlightenment(s) that it is a constant action.
Many of us will be aware of the "penny dropping" for some system or concept that we struggled with. I know I have gotten over things eventually - hence my reference to traction.

[Squire Grooktook]

I would say as our lives are a continuum and we may indeed find one or many or no points of enlightenment(s) that it is a constant action.
Many of us will be aware of the "penny dropping" for some system or concept that we struggled with. I know I have gotten over things eventually - hence my reference to traction.

I think this topic should be viewed in more practical terms, though. For example, behavior.

In my experience, a change in belief system does not often effect an immediate change in behavior (although this depends on what belief system). Changes in behavior (whether we're talking about something as philosophical as "being good" or something as practical as work place efficiency or improving a skill, etc.) are usually gradual and the result of long term effort.

I don't think a lifestyle change can (generally) be easily triggered by "waking up" and embracing a particular worldview. For some people and certain worldviews, maybe, but I'd say that instant change is rare rather than the norm.

[MintyTheCat]

There is always another option so long as we can perceive it

That's what I'm getting at, #1's tend to have blinders on limiting their perception, #2's have broadened their perception and now see/understand they have choices they didn't see before.

OK, i'm not even sure I'm making sense to myself anymore, time for a nap...

Yes and no I would say.

I found many people NEVER commit to anything even when it is irrefutably proven and necessary. It is a carry over in that some people cannot trust themselves to commit - this boils down to confidence. You may recall the story of the Donkey and the two bales of hay:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan's_ass

The Donkey when given two choices fails to make a choice and eventually dies.

On a 'higher level' all people are like this when you get under the surface as we have to either accept something new or reject it and "go with what we know". It is very tempting to reject everything 'new' and unknown as we 'know' more but wisdom tells us that the more we understand the less we know.

[broken harbour]

I'd say that instant change is rare rather than the norm.

Awakening doesn't have to be instant, my own awakening was over a couple years, and hasn't necessarily ended yet.

[MintyTheCat]

I would say as our lives are a continuum and we may indeed find one or many or no points of enlightenment(s) that it is a constant action.
Many of us will be aware of the "penny dropping" for some system or concept that we struggled with. I know I have gotten over things eventually - hence my reference to traction.

I think this topic should be viewed in more practical terms, though. For example, behavior.

"Should" or "could"? Let us take it to be should for you and could for me here.

In my experience, a change in belief system does not often effect an immediate change in behavior (although this depends on what belief system). Changes in behavior (whether we're talking about something as philosophical as "being good" or something as practical as work place efficiency or improving a skill, etc.) are usually gradual and the result of long term effort.

In my experience I have found that the relation is not linear or even curved as you have raised. Rather it is based on how it affects us at the time.
Why do we remember emotionally charged situations more over than sombre, mundane ones? Why do accidents, fights, martial arts activities, etc. seem 'slower' to us?

There is a model used to account for these stark changes in belief:

http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/CAT.ART.HTM

Catastrophe Theory accounts for non-linear changes. Apologies for the Maths - ignore the details.

I know of some Psychological works that relate to this but would have to find refs.

I don't think a lifestyle change can (generally) be easily triggered by "waking up" and embracing a particular worldview. For some people and certain worldviews, maybe, but I'd say that instant change is rare rather than the norm.

I did a lot of maths and martial arts over the years. I found that sudden "eurekas" also occurred and co-existed with that of gradual awareness too. To my mind both methods are correct and yield true results: the gradual nurturing one and the sudden realisation.

You may recall falling on your arse as a toddler - that sudden "oh wow - how did I get here?!?!?" - experience that we all go through - that's an example of the sudden realisation

[MintyTheCat]

I'd say that instant change is rare rather than the norm.

Awakening doesn't have to be instant, my own awakening was over a couple years, and hasn't necessarily ended yet.

I call this "The Wedge". At any point along the Wedge's line at the current depth it sees and knows all. But should you push the wedge down the line extend and it grows. For each level there is a plateau and it only works one way: you can push down but never go back up. This is why we mature over time and much of what we knew before as concrete, true and fact changes over time. We actually go through cycles and phases and they are not linear but some lower levels of development a linear system gives us a framework at least - think of grades earn in lower school but why there are fewer 'grades' once you leave school.

It can end but it shouldn't really end until we end

[Squire Grooktook]

I did a lot of maths and martial arts over the years. I found that sudden "eurekas" also occurred and co-existed with that of gradual awareness too. To my mind both methods are correct and yield true results: the gradual nurturing one and the sudden realisation.

Yeah, that's true (though, given the direction this conversation has taken, I feel hesitant to use the word "true" given that it might have untold philosophical and metaphysical implications )

Although, as I said, I'm not saying that dramatic over night change doesn't happen. More that I don't think they are common or absolute in the way Broken Harbour originally described them.

[Shepardus]

I hope I'm not the only one who has no idea what this thread is about anymore.

But FWIW I'm not a fan of the term "awaken" because it suggests two ways of thinking, one of which is right and one of which is wrong, when in reality if you asked people you'd find that different people can consider very different and opposing states to be "awakened."

[MintyTheCat]

I did a lot of maths and martial arts over the years. I found that sudden "eurekas" also occurred and co-existed with that of gradual awareness too. To my mind both methods are correct and yield true results: the gradual nurturing one and the sudden realisation.

Yeah, that's true (though, given the direction this conversation has taken, I feel hesitant to use the word "true" given that it might have untold philosophical and metaphysical implications )

Although, as I said, I'm not saying that dramatic over night change doesn't happen. More that I don't think they are common or absolute in the way Broken Harbour originally described them.

Hehehehe. Quite, but logic as a family of logics can be true, false or doesn't matter. As such, we apply the 'truth' to the situation we are in. I use a star shaped screw driver for some and as such there are truthes. The closest we get and it is very hazy in some situations to a truth would be something like a mathematical identity or axiom or some proof but even that breaks down at one level or another.

When we get down to Quantum-Mechanics or Chaos Theory or all manner of other disciplines it breaks again. The art is knowing how it breaks, sometimes why it breaks and then working out how to either prevent it from breaking or to adopt another tool or discipline that will not break for the problem at hand.

Overnight is not even a hard limit here; more over an instant change in belief can be effected given the magnitude and pressure the individual is under at the time.

This is why violence, rape, poltergheist activity, BDSM, interrogation, etc. all can yield profound and instant changes in ones beliefs.

[broken harbour]

I hope I'm not the only one who has no idea what this thread is about anymore.

I think it started with a general feeling of a few people in a round about way saying "I'm introverted because people are assholes" and then I tried to interject with "well how you react to that is a choice" and then I rambled too much, and now somebody mentioned BDSM...

[Squire Grooktook]

The closest we get and it is very hazy in some situations to a truth would be something like a mathematical identity or axiom or some proof but even that breaks down at one level or another.

Well, a hotdog is made of meat is true. A hotdog is made of atoms is also true. Sometimes it just comes down to semantics.

Overnight is not even a hard limit here; more over an instant change in belief can be effected given the magnitude and pressure the individual is under at the time.

This is why violence, rape, poltergheist activity, BDSM, interrogation, etc. all can yield profound and instant changes in ones beliefs.

As I said, I'm not talking about whether it can happen or not. More likelihood/commonality in relation to the specific viewpoint/ethos Broken Harbour was talking about.

[MintyTheCat]

As I said, I'm not talking about whether it can happen or not. More likelihood/commonality in relation to the specific viewpoint/ethos Broken Harbour was talking about.

That would boil down to the individual and how they filter/assess their world and how grounded they can and often need to be.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^Which is exactly what I acknowledged. It's a matter of rarity, not possibility.

[MintyTheCat]

I hope I'm not the only one who has no idea what this thread is about anymore.

I think it started with a general feeling of a few people in a round about way saying "I'm introverted because people are assholes" and then I tried to interject with "well how you react to that is a choice" and then I rambled too much, and now somebody mentioned BDSM...

Yes Some of us have gone off on a tangent. But, well, being extroverted/introverted often comes down to how we perceive ourselves and others as raised previously in this Thread.

BDSM is one example that I gave of something that can illicit a sudden change in belief but that is most certainly only one example out of many.

Quite a hardcore discussion for a Shmup site I would say