Multiple Campaigns vs Branches vs One campaign perfected

[the_last_shmupper]

I know there are several shmups with branching maps and levels. More traditionally shmups have one campaign and still others that let you select your stages and the order you'll play them.

Are there any shmups with multiple campaigns? Such as beat all 6 stages, you're done but now there are 6 other stages! As always, I throw myself upon your vast knowledge.

I suppose it counts if there are alternate campaigns where the stages are the same, but enemy placement is different rather than enemies just getting more difficult.

In your opinions is it better to have branching levels rather than multiple campaigns? Like why have 3 campaigns of 6 levels when 1 level can branch into 3 and their ending lets you select 3 more and so on?

My personal thought is that branching would always result in a preferred next level. Assuming the player is allowed to chose rather than random luck or unlocking a certain level by whatever means either X play throughs or doing really well.

Again, I thank you all for the discussion and letting me make all of these topics.

[Shepardus]

Recca has a hard mode with new stages after you clear the game. I suppose the unlockable extra stages in Touhou games also count.

[Doctor Butler]

If you have different sets of stages, that requires multiple scoreboards, et al.

Having one core mode, with alternate routes along the way, consolidates everything, and allows you to include all the the game's content in that single mode.

[MathU]

Gradius Rebirth and Kingdom Grandprix do what I believe you're referring to well. When you beat them you somewhat start the games over but the levels are for the most part completely different from the previous ones.

Loops usually suck though. Especially the kind where they just make everything explode into more bullets. I don't like slogging through nearly the same thing once to get to the challenging part that generally becomes my reason to still be playing the game. A singular, complete "campaign" or branching pathways like Darius are preferred.

Also here's another thread that might interest you.

[mamboFoxtrot]

Another thing to consider is Megaman-style stage selection. Lords of Thunder is only STG I know of that used it, but I think one of the Thunder Force games is like that as well.

I suppose it counts if there are alternate campaigns where the stages are the same, but enemy placement is different rather than enemies just getting more difficult.

This sounds like an Arrange mode, which is pretty common on home ports of arcade games and other kinds of re-releases, though more commonly Arrange modes will change the mechanics more than the stages. Mars Matrix's Elite mode, though, keeps all the mechanics the same, but changes up the enemies to the point that it's basically an entirely new game.


Other than that I don't have a lot of experience with games with branching paths and such. I have IronClad and Shock Troopers, but have barely played them. The only thing else I can really think of is the Starfox games. The first one is kinda like a "multiple campaign" thing, but each campaign is a different difficulty mode. SF64 is more like "branching paths", but it's based on you doing certain things within the level. Again, though, the paths are different difficulty levels rather than just being different stages.

Either way, I generally like stage-branching (as long as none of the stages are just pallete-swaps of each other), but yeah, you do tend to end up settling on favorites, unless you just REALLY DAMN LOVE all the stages. Something to keep in mind with branching, though, is that you almost always start at the same first stage every time, which might feel a little repetitive at times. The first Starfox had different layouts for different difficulties, and Shock Troopers just has three completely different sets of stages that all converge on one final stage. Meanwhile, Shadow the Hedgehog has you doing Westopolis at least ten times if you want to get the true ending... sorry about none of these games I'm talking about being STGs, but, I don't think it really matters too much in this case.

Another thing to be aware of is that people who are really obsessed with scoring may have different reactions to a variable route. Some hate it because their stage choice is forced by which one is more high-scoring, while others may enjoy the process of figuring out which route is the best (or hate it). I'm not much of a score-chaser myself, so I just see any of these options you're presenting as "yay moar content!".

[the_last_shmupper]

A loop is very doable. MathU is right about how you need to slog through content before you face a challenge. I'd say that's a good reason for unlocking a loop where you can play it next time and you're not forced to keep going. Its just my personal opinion that I'd want different levels rather than more bullets or different patterns, but that's not out of the picture.

After reading the comments, people didn't seem that thrilled about loops, although reading about a mirror mode was interesting. I could do that with how I have things setup.

I can make a survival mode where you just keep going until you die. While I think that should be a mode. I think I'm at a point in my life where that just doesn't appeal to me. I could make one super easy, because my enemies are generated by commands and also placed on a map. So I'd just make the enemy generator churn out random enemies.

I never even thought about Mega Man selection style. While its a good style, I think it might break a flow of continuous progression. Of course I'm sure that something can just be programmed in where at the end of each level you fly your ship to a different part to enter.

Doctor had a good catch with the multiple high score boards with multiple campaigns. So many scoreboards....

About the yay more content. I'm at the point where I can just churn out levels pretty quickly. Of course there are no graphics to the levels to differentiate them right now. Since churning out levels is so easy, quick and efficient now, I feel like I should make 3 campaigns or at least branches. Of course I can always do 2 different modes, 1 with branches and let's say 18 levels and another mode with 3 campaigns of 6 levels each or whatever it turns out to be. Programming is beautiful, you can do anything with time.

Without stage graphics right now, I think the true test is to make a level feel different by enemies alone, but I'm not at that point, even with 40 enemy types. Different enemies just don't make levels feel different enough. That's why I need to branch out into like vine enemies or bizarre designs.

The only real catch to having 18 levels is the financial budget to make 18 unique looks, not to mention burn out. So I'd make all first levels have the same assets, even if the design is different. All second levels would use the same assets and so on. Then polishing them of course, but then the time is distributed amongst 18 levels instead of 6. I think all 18 levels might have different bosses, since that's not an issue, it just takes time to get interesting and engaging boss fights. Wow thinking about it, that might turn into 18 days or 150 hours of work... hmmm I'm second guessing 18 bosses now.

In a perfect world my mystery game would make enough sales to pay the graphic designer to make 6 new visual styles for 6 extra levels and then make an entirely new campaign for free, since its easy to make the levels.

[Shepardus]

Unlocking a loop to play later is basically an additional difficulty level, might as well offer it from the start without having to unlock it first.

Is Megaman-style stage selection where you choose the order of the stages as you play through them? Deathsmiles does something like that, and so does Touhou 12.8 (Fairy Wars). Fairy Wars also changes up each stage depending on the route you take, so every order is different but contains similar elements.

It may be easy to make levels but make sure you're polishing them as much as you can, better to make one really good route than a hundred mediocre routes (though admittedly the latter may be an easier sell to non-shmuppers).

[the_last_shmupper]

Unlocking a loop to play later is basically an additional difficulty level, might as well offer it from the start without having to unlock it first.

Is Megaman-style stage selection where you choose the order of the stages as you play through them? Deathsmiles does something like that, and so does Touhou 12.8 (Fairy Wars). Fairy Wars also changes up each stage depending on the route you take, so every order is different but contains similar elements.

It may be easy to make levels but make sure you're polishing them as much as you can, better to make one really good route than a hundred mediocre routes (though admittedly the latter may be an easier sell to non-shmuppers).

Mega Man style has you pick a stage, beat it then pick another stage.

Yeah I'll polish, because I'll be the first to get bored of them and spot things that are unfair. I put something in the game to keep track of just how many times I play each level. On the plus side, all of my messing around levels are 2 minutes without final bosses, so at least they're quick.

I tweak enemies and placement a lot almost each time I play through things. Like X is too close to Y. It would be better if an enemy did this.... its unfair if a randomly firing enemy can shoot within 50 pixels of you, although I think I might change that to 100. There's just no time to dodge. Larger enemies with consistent firing patterns will still fire and its the player's fault for getting hit.

Its unfair if an enemies are in a line and shoot south at you, you can't see the bullet to dodge it, so I fixed that. Offhand, those were today's polishing issues. Its just a lot of little details and nuances. Smoothing out flight patterns so they're natural and not laughably rigid as they used to be.

Its no bullet hell masterpiece though. In fact only the bosses are true bullet hell patterns though.

[Doctor Butler]

18 levels.

As long as the player is never forced to play for more than 30 minutes straight. Less is more.

[the_last_shmupper]

18 levels.

As long as the player is never forced to play for more than 30 minutes straight. Less is more.

As I've been playing a lot more shmups lately I've noticed 24 - 30 minutes seems to happen a lot and I think that's the appropriate amount of time before burnout happens. 6 levels * 4 minutes each = 24 minutes with wiggle room for longer levels. I can always make a save function, but with a 24 - 30 minute game is it that big of an issue even in modern times? Well maybe if your house is on fire and you were on the last level.... hmmm....

[mamboFoxtrot]

It'd be kinda weird to save and resume a 30 minute game. I mean, imagine starting an episode of some regular TV show or anime, stopping 18 minutes in, and then finishing the other 6-ish minutes another day.

I think all 18 levels might have different bosses, since that's not an issue, it just takes time to get interesting and engaging boss fights. Wow thinking about it, that might turn into 18 days or 150 hours of work... hmmm I'm second guessing 18 bosses now.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, Shock Troopers reused some bosses along its three different routes. Like, I remember at least the first and third stage boss being the same guy no matter what route I took.

But, I have to say, having three different stage layouts for each graphical style sounds kinda weird if they're all intended to be the same difficulty. I'm not saying it's wrong, but generally people make stage choices based on difficulty or aesthetic preferences. The only way I can think of it turning out so that people actually gravitate towards one version or another (or even remember which is which) is if the layouts are REALLY different and have some sort of design theme, like maybe one layout has tons of walls while the other has lots of popcorn rushes or something (okay, this example would probably cause a big scoring imbalance, but you get what I mean). But maybe I just don't quite get what you're trying to do with this.

[the_last_shmupper]

It'd be kinda weird to save and resume a 30 minute game. I mean, imagine starting an episode of some regular TV show or anime, stopping 18 minutes in, and then finishing the other 6-ish minutes another day.

I think all 18 levels might have different bosses, since that's not an issue, it just takes time to get interesting and engaging boss fights. Wow thinking about it, that might turn into 18 days or 150 hours of work... hmmm I'm second guessing 18 bosses now.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, Shock Troopers reused some bosses along its three different routes. Like, I remember at least the first and third stage boss being the same guy no matter what route I took.

But, I have to say, having three different stage layouts for each graphical style sounds kinda weird if they're all intended to be the same difficulty. I'm not saying it's wrong, but generally people make stage choices based on difficulty or aesthetic preferences. The only way I can think of it turning out so that people actually gravitate towards one version or another (or even remember which is which) is if the layouts are REALLY different and have some sort of design theme, like maybe one layout has tons of walls while the other has lots of popcorn rushes or something (okay, this example would probably cause a big scoring imbalance, but you get what I mean). But maybe I just don't quite get what you're trying to do with this.

You're right about the save. I've never needed a save with a shmup. It almost feels wrong. After playing a few I've started to play them standing up like the old arcade days... even when I'm still playing on a console. Once my legs start getting antsy after 20 - 30 minutes I realize that should be it.

If I do end up with 3 different stages per visual style, I'd just assess which level 1 is the hardest and make the three campaigns as difficulties. After churning out six levels to make one campaign. If anything making extra levels of the same look can help me evaluate which is better and belongs in the game.

The walls versus popcorn idea is good and would make everything feel different while still being the same visual style.

[Ed Oscuro]

In your opinions is it better to have branching levels rather than multiple campaigns?

Ultimately we can't avoid talking about development compromises. Some things are simply uncontrollable. Once you think about all the factors that go into choosing one presentation form or another, hopefully you'll decide not to hate the unavoidable choices developers face. Having a lengthy campaign or multiple branching campaigns might be nice things to have, or they might be superfluous and detract from the game. If money and time are short, anything that's not central to the experience can and must be cut.

In point of fact, your way of asking this question puts classics in the cold - games like Juno First or Galaga '88 (to give a latter example) do exceptionally well without all the latter-day production values getting in the way, and even then both games put a lot more effort into looking and sounding good than many of their own predecessors! Pretty late-model game designs aren't bad or anything, but they're not necessarily more efficient at turning money into fun than a simple idea executed well.

I know this might sound super picky, but the entire market is hampered by these beliefs from all quarters that shooting games must be elaborate to be fun. It does help with marketing, but it also makes many games too expensive to make, while mobile games' explosive profits may well start to slow as people demand yet more and more bling for their dollar, instead of more fun.

[Doctor Butler]

Exactly what Ed Obscuro said.

Anything non-essential to the core experience is bloat.
Never make frosting at the expense of the cake.