End of level screens... yay or nay (chaining through levels)

[pokemon123]

wow never thought i'd agree with something trouserplank said. And yep last shmupper plz no stage long /game long chaining.

[the_last_shmupper]

trouserplank was a little bitch

dont listen to him

As troll as your posts have been, I've implemented a lot of your stuff with settings to enable them. Ammo + speed for chains via settings, I'll keep the game long chains via settings with its own high score roster.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah TrouserPlank is notorious for shitting up threads with "WHY CAN'T I BEAT GAME???" rants.

I actually partially agree, not a fan of chaining. Then again, it all comes down to taste, and some complaints about chaining could be made about all scoring systems to an extent.

[the_last_shmupper]

I'll be honest and say the point I have playing a game is to beat it and move on. Chaining, side quests, optional stuff just doesn't appeal to me anymore. With that being said.... forcing myself to play my own 4 minute "first level," over fifty times now I've gotta say the chaining makes it more fun than without chains. Without chains it was pretty meh. Even with chains on playthrough #30 it was getting meh again. Then I added dynamic explosions and its infinitely more fun with or without chains. Michael Bay it up!

[BIL]

For new friends: DTP is the forum's pet scrub. Nobody's sure where he came from but after some mutual abuse we decided to keep him. DTP is a bit like an endearingly naughty puppy, but instead of eating shoes and weeing on things he complains about shooters and provides much quote gold.

I don't see how I can get any better. The reason I am not improving is because I am as good as it is possible to be.

He's a bit older now and not as rambunctious but you can never count that rascal out!

[Squire Grooktook]

I'll be honest and say the point I have playing a game is to beat it and move on. Chaining, side quests, optional stuff just doesn't appeal to me anymore. With that being said.... forcing myself to play my own 4 minute "first level," over fifty times now I've gotta say the chaining makes it more fun than without chains. Without chains it was pretty meh. Even with chains on playthrough #30 it was getting meh again. Then I added dynamic explosions and its infinitely more fun with or without chains. Michael Bay it up!

Even if you're not replaying a game, scoring systems give you something engaging to do in places that you've already mastered.

There's really no reason not to include a good scoring system if you have the time and smarts to design one. If players don't like it, they can ignore it. If they do like it, it gives them more replayability and things to do if it ends up being their favorite game ever.

Myself, I don't really need in depth scoring systems to enjoy replaying a game. If it has some fun rng dodging and whatnot that keeps things intense and reactive on future playthroughs, then that's enough to get me hype for a replay. That being said, if a scoring system is really fun, I don't mind getting addicted to it at all.

I would also recommend playing a ton of games before designing one. Your tastes and preferences might shift dramatically the more you really learn about the genre. I know mine have. I've gone from:

I hate bullet hell, large hitboxes for life > bullet hell is the only way, everything else is trash > I enjoy both styles, and appreciate the respective strengths of both. I hope to find games with the best of both worlds.

[the_last_shmupper]

So I can understand and see why people hate chaining throughout a game and hate pattern memorization, but allow me to say that wouldn't such things benefit those that invest the time to play again and again to be rewarded with larger high scores? Just trying to play devil's advocate and see the other side of the coin.

Plus, well having a mega uber multi level chain did kinda mess up end of level stats for a while. I had to put in and change a few things to include level by level chains while maintaining the full game chain.

I've started playing a lot more shmups that have been mentioned and recommended here in these topics. I feel like I can take away something positive and fresh about everything that I've played. I've always enjoyed shmups, but up until the past 6 months I fell out of shmuping. Probably not what anyone wants to hear from someone making a shmup, but they're just so addictive and beautiful.

I still need to cut down on my player hit box and its always on my mind fighting a bullet hell boss. Its still possible to not get hit, but it feels like it should be easier. The only thing keeping me from making the smaller hit box is wall collision detection. I need 2 hit boxes, which is possible, it just hasn't been a priority yet. I've already trimmed down the player hit box to make it easier to slip through narrow passageways. otherwise having the ship hit box the same size as the corridor was nearly impossible to get through. Shaving it by 2 pixels helped so much.

[pokemon123]

well tbh i wouldn't mind chaining as long it isn't like an all or nothing system and forcing you to memorize every single little thing (DOJ and Ikaruga)

[Squire Grooktook]

It's a matter of preference. Some people might find the ultra punishing "your whole stage score goes to shit if you drop a chain" systems more exciting, others might find it just too demanding or frustrating.

Similarly, chaining itself is a matter of preference. I personally prefer systems where you're urged to kill everything as fast as possible, rather than stagger kills for chains. But some people also like the rhythm of chaining and whatnot.

I recommend playing around and deciding what you find most fun in the long run.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

DDP style chaining is awful. It's way, way too rigid, and a single mistake in the stage can cost you dearly. Of course, this is assuming we're talking about full-stage chains in DoDonpachi or Guwange (which is full level). Basically, kill an enemy too quickly or a bit too late, etc, and you drop the chain. If you need to go off-course to dodge something difficult, your chain is going to drop. Daifukkatsu and Saidaioujou are more forgiving about this as their hyper mechanics allow you to much more easily use it as a saving grace, but still drop a chain on a death. The games are fun, but it's in spite of the chaining mechanics, not because of it. As previously stated, games that allow for more free-form execution and experimentation (Ketsui for instance) without destroying your score meter completely for a mistake are much more friendly to players.

I'm okay with games that punish scores for dying mid-stage (Giga Wing, Blue Wish Resurrection) but bombing enemies and killing them how you like shouldn't seriously hurt your score. A good example of this is Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 Original. You have a meter that you build in each stage that affects the value of point items, similar to a chain, but you are not punished with loss on your meter for killing enemies the 'wrong' way (aside from getting a smaller number of point items). You can freestyle more effectively without feeling like even the tiniest mistake costs you massively. Bombs take off from your meter, but the meter loss is such that you can bomb during stages and still get very respectable scores. Note that the Black Label remixed ver reverses this - bombs seriously damage your scoring potential, whereas dying does not, so people wanting to score will generally ignore bombs...

End of level screens are nice. It's nice to have the option to stand up and stretch for a minute. After you've beaten a difficult boss you generally need a breather!

as well end-screens with images explaining part of the story like Cave games (Espgaluda 1 and ESP.DA.RADE. has text too).

Yeah. I liked Giga Wing's stage dialogue too - making the transition screens interesting really adds to a game. If you're going to put story in a shmup, it's a good way to implement it without getting in the way of the game itself by bogging it down with cinematics, constant breaks in the action for chatter, etc. Or make it skippable, Touhou style.

[the_last_shmupper]

My current chaining system allows for bombs, deaths and item collecting to reset the 5 second timer. I took it from Bakraid. Killing with bombs breaks the chain. Currently bombs are unlimited, but that will change I'm sure. I need to implement something that allows for one bomb maybe every 3 seconds. With random enemy positions its impossible to know or remember where everything is.

***If a bomb killing an enemy and breaking a chain is an issue, I can have bombs reduce the chain by lets say 5. If the 5 second chain timer expires I can have the chain drop by 5 for every 5 seconds that goes by. Would that be better than having a 100 - 200 chain go to 0?

If I'm going to put in a second roster of high scores, I can put in a third roster for a mode that doesn't allow chains. Even then, wouldn't you still have to memorize everything to get the top score? But again I have random enemy placement at the current moment.

All cut scenes should be skipable.... if not disabled via settings.

[BIL]

All cut scenes should be skipable.... if not disabled via settings.

Incidentally, just picked up Cotton 100% (SFC). Checked the options as I always do with a new game, and was pleased to see the lovingly drawn intermissions could nonetheless be nixed entirely via "VISUAL = ON/OFF." Gley Lancer (MD) is the same, tons of cinemas you can simply chop out via "Scenario On/Off."

I always appreciate this gesture. Better than fast-forwarding through cutscenes is not having to encounter them at all.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

My current chaining system allows for bombs, deaths and item collecting to reset the 5 second timer. I took it from Bakraid. Killing with bombs breaks the chain.

Most of Yagawa's games are specifically designed to allow judicious use of bombs offensively for scoring. If you're taking inspiration from games like Battle Bakraid, Garegga, Armed Police Batrider, etc, bombs are crucial for scoring there.

With random enemy positions its impossible to know or remember where everything is.

Dodonpachi style chaining relies heavily on knowing the exact route to follow. I'm not sure how effectively a chaining system can be implemented with random enemy appearances. It'd be walking a fine line - either it'd be too hard with constant breaks, or too easy, with essentially no effort required to maintain the chain so long as you don't get hit.

If I'm going to put in a second roster of high scores, I can put in a third roster for a mode that doesn't allow chains. Even then, wouldn't you still have to memorize everything to get the top score? But again I have random enemy placement at the current moment.

I would focus on making one strong scoring system before you think about implementing multiple modes. Games can always be remixed later on with updates to the scoring (see: the Black Label releases of Cave's games). Multiple difficulties is okay, but implementing multiple scoring systems in a game can risk making all of the modes feel unfocused.

[Squire Grooktook]

\It'd be walking a fine line - either it'd be too hard with constant breaks, or too easy, with essentially no effort required to maintain the chain so long as you don't get hit.

Solution: take the "too easy" and "too hard" chain timer values, and set it to a value halfway between them. Problem solved.

Also worth noting, but M-Kai said Eschatos's scoring system was designed with randomized zako spawns in mind.

[the_last_shmupper]

My current chaining system allows for bombs, deaths and item collecting to reset the 5 second timer. I took it from Bakraid. Killing with bombs breaks the chain.

Most of Yagawa's games are specifically designed to allow judicious use of bombs offensively for scoring. If you're taking inspiration from games like Battle Bakraid, Garegga, Armed Police Batrider, etc, bombs are crucial for scoring there.

With random enemy positions its impossible to know or remember where everything is.

Dodonpachi style chaining relies heavily on knowing the exact route to follow. I'm not sure how effectively a chaining system can be implemented with random enemy appearances. It'd be walking a fine line - either it'd be too hard with constant breaks, or too easy, with essentially no effort required to maintain the chain so long as you don't get hit.

If I'm going to put in a second roster of high scores, I can put in a third roster for a mode that doesn't allow chains. Even then, wouldn't you still have to memorize everything to get the top score? But again I have random enemy placement at the current moment.

I would focus on making one strong scoring system before you think about implementing multiple modes. Games can always be remixed later on with updates to the scoring (see: the Black Label releases of Cave's games). Multiple difficulties is okay, but implementing multiple scoring systems in a game can risk making all of the modes feel unfocused.

I've now added a selection in the settings:
Chain break results in:
- chain drops by 10. Each chain is worth 15%
- chain drops to 0. Each chain is worth 25%

So the player that wants the challenge, will always beat a player that doesn't. Is that acceptable? An easy chain vs a hard chain. That would help for boss fights to keep the chain going.

I haven't gone through to make a second series of high scores, that might take a while, so its not a time filler like chain settings. The random enemy placement seems to work out for the most part. I've balanced them in such a way that their bullets are still avoidable, but fast enough to be dangerous. Of course different enemy types result in different chaos with randomness. I think the only time where its a noticeable issue is heavier enemies clustered together just looks awkward seeing a pile of them on top of one another. I could always time them to come further apart.

So its dedicated enemies at specific times, just different X entries. You can still remember what's coming next, just not where. Even enemies that pop in from the sides have random Y entries, but that's pretty easy its either on the absolute left or absolute right.

Again, messing around phase just to have something to play, but the more I play it, the more I think dedicated enemy placement will feel less chaotic. I can still have a specific mode with random placement for the fun and laughs. I can also make the enemies randomized for true chaos, but that probably wouldn't feel right considering enemies pop up from the south (after warning text). Other enemies come in from the north and force you to the south. The two together would unfairly murder the player, unless I programmed it to disallow that combination.

The random enemy placement makes me feel like I need some sort of lightning attack that goes from one enemy to another with no aim. I have homing missiles, but they felt extremely overpowered, so I dropped their damage and they still felt overpowered, so now I decreased their firing rate to make them less desirable. I suppose another step to make them more desirable would be make them fire quicker, but have a distance before they nullify. I'm always a HUGE fan of homing missiles in any game, because they always feel so overpowered. I've also got flak cannons from enemies that explode after a certain distance. Some that make other projectiles when they explode.

[Lobinden]

I do prefer shooters to be a "seamless" experience, where the levels are visually connected without any loading/end of level screens breaking them apart (see: Rayforce), but end of level screens can be good to provide the player with a short break and show them some cool artwork (think Under Defeat).

In regards to chaining, I do prefer breaks in the chain between levels, but if the chaining system timer is generous and involves something other than just "kill all enemies in a short time" like the discomen in Dangun Feveron I think it is better to have the chain you start with potentially last through the whole run.

I never do scoring runs, but whenever I play Dangun Feveron I just have to try and collect all the discomen and keep the chain going, because the "timer" doesn't require perfect memorisation and the act of collecting them is fun.

[Squire Grooktook]

In regards to chaining, I do prefer breaks in the chain between levels, but if the chaining system timer is generous and involves something other than just "kill all enemies in a short time" like the discomen in Dangun Feveron I think it is better to have the chain you start with potentially last through the whole run.

The piano sound would probably cause aneurysms if Dangun had full game discomen chains.

[Some-Mist]

TrouserPlank lol. haven't seen that name in awhile.

I like the idea of chaining but I'm not really a fan of most games that do it. I kinda prefer the yagawa style medal chaining opposed to something like ddpdoj or ikaruga. you're gonna find a difference of opinion regardless.
you do want a scoring system to give the game some longevity/replayability as stated so you're on the right track

edit: actually shit, I really like dangun feveron too.

[pokemon123]

yeah it is personal preference i guess, just IMO i personally think his game would probably be crap for score if he tried to do DOJ or ikaruga chaining and i absolutely hate those games now for score but yeah some people definitely like that kind of chaining although i have no idea how even with opinions T_T

[Shepardus]

It's a bit unfortunate that Ikaruga's scoring and Dodonpachi's scoring are both called chaining because they're very different. Dodonpachi's chaining is all about timing, and order doesn't matter as long as it doesn't screw up your timing, while Ikaruga's chaining is about the order in which you kill enemies (and in Radiant Silvergun, which enemies you decide to kill in the first place), and taking longer to destroy enemies won't reset your chain. About the only thing the two share in common, and the reason they're both called chaining, is that their scoring relies on actions built up over time - that is, the value of an action is not determined by the action itself (like destroying a part in something like Garegga would be), but rather by the accumulation of similar actions over time. The same applies to medal chaining in Garegga, Batrider, Ibara, even Gunbird 2 and Strikers 1945 III, as well as discomen chaining in Dangun Feveron.

The things I don't like about Dodonpachi chaining in particular is how disproportionate the penalties are in comparison to the size of the mistakes made, and how dependent it is on memorizing popcorn enemies. Some games deal with the former by putting a cap on chain value (like in Ikaruga or Garegga's medals), but I think doing that in Dodonpachi would make it feel too unrewarding. I haven't played the game but I do like the sound of Saidaioujou's chain not dropping all the way to zero from a single chain break.

The dependence on really detailed memorization is partially due to how tight the chaining timer is, since that tightness is exactly where the system gets its difficulty. Other ways to infuse difficulty into chaining rather than raw timing demands do exist, such as the dynamic of collecting items while dodging bullets in Dangun Feveron, Garegga, or Mars Matrix, or the medal chaining in Gunbird 2 (also based on timing, but in a different way from Dodonpachi and you have more time to set it up), or the juggling of extends, suicides, and bombs in Battle Bakraid (which is also timing-based like Dodonpachi, but with a slow enough timer that remembering things quickly enough isn't much of a problem).

I also like how Bakraid and Mars Matrix place more emphasis on some enemies than others, Bakraid by making only large enemies and boss parts grant chain extensions, Mars Matrix by making some enemies drop larger medals that raise the chain timer higher. This contrasts with Dodonpachi where popcorn enemies are just as important to keeping your chain as larger enemies, which really contributes to the feeling of being forced to memorize every little detail. Games like Dangun Feveron, Mars Matrix, and even Dodonpachi Daioujou also provide extra tools to help you keep your chain (Feveron's bombs, MM's reflection mechanic, DOJ's hypers), which is something I prefer to have in a chaining system to make the game feel more active and dynamic.

[Some-Mist]

It's a bit unfortunate that Ikaruga's scoring and Dodonpachi's scoring are both called chaining because they're very different.

I'm not sure anyone was saying they're the same if that's what you're getting at, but still a helpful/insightful post nonetheless.

[the_last_shmupper]

My timer is 5 seconds long, and easy to maintain, until the bosses, because they're distracting you. By you I mean me, since I'm the only person to play it and I'm still having fun. In the fake test levels I deliberately have 5 second gaps that require you to use a bomb to keep going, but again, fake test level. I'm not sure I want to have a 5 second break in the action.

Of course I can adjust the time and maybe that's something for the settings, but I'm not sure people would be like "yes, I want 3 second chain timers and not 5." Come to think of it, if I did that I'd need to boost the score to compensate and make that 3 seconds more desirable, but that might turn impossible, so 4 seconds would be better if not 3.5 seconds.

If chains become a big focus, I can even make enemies that if you get in their radius they start to drain your chain. People might riot and hate that idea though. Which is why I'm mentioning it here I might hear yeah that's a great idea or please no!

[Some-Mist]

It might be kinda cooler if it drains the chain if your too far outside of their radius. That way it promotes point blanking and a higher risk/reward scoring system instead of sitting back at the bottom and shooting from afar to keep your chain going.

[JBC]

I like the ones in Raiden games.

[the_last_shmupper]

It might be kinda cooler if it drains the chain if your too far outside of their radius. That way it promotes point blanking and a higher risk/reward scoring system instead of sitting back at the bottom and shooting from afar to keep your chain going.

I like the idea! I'll have to indicate on screen somehow its being drained or X seconds until it starts draining. Maybe highlight the enemy. That might be considered hand holding, but I can make a setting for that.

I've got a mini boss enemy that traps you in its shield. The shield disappears and takes X seconds to regenerate, but then with you trapped it'll start moving around to murder you with its shield.