End of level screens... yay or nay (chaining through levels)

[the_last_shmupper]

I'm back again with another thread. What do you all feel about end of level screens? Do you like to see a nice big billboard of your score, your chain and see the points rack up or would you like to just keep going? Perhaps a more subtle tally of points as you fly through a non hostile area as down time?

In my opinion, I feel like the end of level billboard system breaks the flow and pace of the game, but I'm just one person with an opinion. How do you all feel?

I suppose to make this thread more lively of a discussion, what do you think of a selectable branching level after each level? Fly on one side of the screen to visit a different level, fly on the other for another level or would it be better to have a menu appear to select which of the two you'd rather play?

Instead of levels, what if you had the opportunity to select between two different weapons to have during the next level? Same selected player, just different weapons based on the selected player. It would give a chance for variety with multiple play throughs, balanced so nothing is considered "the bad weapon." Something to tell you what you're getting into like spread shot does X damage, homing missiles do X/3 damage. When you die, you still keep the weapon as your default or would people want to know what they missed out on and want to return to have another selection?

As a joke, there's always the mobile method of levels ending where you have a chance to replay a level, go to the next or return to the menu along with seeing your star rating. How well would that go over in the shmup community?

Once again, thank you all for your responses, opinions and tolerance with these long questions.

[Shepardus]

I personally don't care much for stage end screens, though it can be useful for players who want to catch a break before the last stage (you can see people do this for games like Dodonpachi and Mushi Futari). For me it ties into my preference for no stage or game clear bonuses, since those feel really disconnected from gameplay if they contribute too much of the score or if the formula is too complicated (anything more complex than lives * number + bombs * number). Ketsui's stage-end screen is very nice, though, it's short and to the point and the stage backgrounds scroll smoothly from one stage to another.

The Darius series does a good job of the "branching paths" style, where after each level you can press up or down to select between two choices for the next stage. G-Darius also has the "fly on one side of the screen" mechanic you mention: in addition to the branching paths of stages, each stage itself has two different routes, which are selected by being on the top or bottom half of the screen during the fork. I'm fine with branching paths but keep in mind that it is a lot of work especially if you go as far with it as Darius does.

Final Boss does the thing where you select a new weapon for each stage; you should take a look at that. It's pretty good at making it feel like each weapon choice has its uses in the stage.

As for the last part, about the "mobile method," it would work for games where each level is a separate challenge, like rRootage, but the choice to repeat levels doesn't fit with games where you're intended to play through the stages in order.

[neorocker]

as with any of these, it depends on the kind of game you're making. there'll always be a divide on this stuff and the overall tone of the game will ultimately be the deciding factor on things like this. i like any variety of things between levels, depending on the game's presentation, flow, tone, etc. games driven by score are going to have tallies, games that emphasize adventure are going to have other methods (darius series)

i don't think there's a set answer for this kind of thing outside of "it depends on what the game is trying to do". particularly striking examples for me have been einhander and g-darius.

[amdiggywhut]

I personally like them, simply because this is the momentary break where I get to take a sip of whatever I'm drinking.

[Kollision]

Make them like Under Defeat, Giga Wing or DOJ.
These ones rule.

[the_last_shmupper]

I personally like them, simply because this is the momentary break where I get to take a sip of whatever I'm drinking.

I recommend a beer helmet full of Mountain Dew. Although really my personal experience playing shmups / bullet hells is that I don't get adrenaline or a rush, its more like a calming, meditative focus.

[Squire Grooktook]

It's like that until you're on the verge of a big achievement. Then your heart rate shoots through the roof and your hands are almost trembling.

And that is what it's all about.

On topic: Dunno about end level screens. It's a detail that has always intrigued me, but never one I've put a ton of focus or analysis into. Most I can say is that I preferred them as a kid, but nowerdays I'm more open minded.

[DestroyTheCore]

There is nothing more satisfying than seeing the picture of Reco pressing her chest on Palm's face after the final stage of Futari.

Edit: I guess my avatar is fitting...

[BIL]

They're something I've always associated with Irem's games, including non-shooters like Ninja Spirit, Holy Diver and Metal Storm. An unskippable score tally screen, typically with its own musical jingle and incorporating the player sprite in some way.

I don't mind them in savage arcade context, as frankly a breather is nice, but I do think the option to speed up or skip should always be there for times when you're really fired up. Options are a good thing in general, basically!

[NeoStrayCat]

I don't mind them either, since some of the games I play either lets you skip through the score screen quick with a simple button press, transition to the next level without the score screen after each stage, or a mix therein.

But what also comes to mind is that Shooting Love's 200X "Zeal" games don't let you skip the end of level screens, which is rather BS, in a way, but yeah, that comes as an example.

[ACSeraph]

They don't bother me, but Eschatos makes a damn good case for the superiority of seamless stage transition. It's one of the defining points of the game to me.

[Shepardus]

They don't bother me, but Eschatos makes a damn good case for the superiority of seamless stage transition. It's one of the defining points of the game to me.

RayForce is also really good at these seamless stage transitions - you do transition from one environment to another, but they happen as part of the stage itself, which makes it so much more awesome.

[ACSeraph]

Definitely agree, the descent into the atmosphere in RayForce is one of my favorite visual moments in the genre. It's another game that would not be the same without the seamless transitions.

[1up]

I personally like them, simply because this is the momentary break where I get to take a sip of whatever I'm drinking.

^this

Dodonpachi screen comes to mind.

[BIL]

RayForce is also really good at these seamless stage transitions - you do transition from one environment to another, but they happen as part of the stage itself, which makes it so much more awesome.

Definitely agree, the descent into the atmosphere in RayForce is one of my favorite visual moments in the genre. It's another game that would not be the same without the seamless transitions.

Not coincidentally, three of the genre's finest in seamless stage transitions - Rayforce, Hyper Duel and Nemesis II GB - all contain atmospheric entry sequences. ^__^ HD's coincides with the space colony you were in being blown out of orbit and impacting the planet in a biblical explosion. Nemesis II brings the disabled st3 boss along for the ride, scorching it to oblivion as the Vic pierces the atmosphere in a ball of flames. Conversely, there is of course the sheer vertical rush of Eschatos's climb into space.

Seamless transitions are a great way to impart a sense of a contiguous world and cinema without sacrificing the genre's fundamental tightness. No reason you can't superimpose the usual score tally either, as HD and Ketsui do.

[Stevens]

I like how Mars Matrix gives you a quick recap followed by a preview of the next stage. I just wish the words didn't scroll by so fast.

[copy-paster]

Personally I like Dodonpachi / DOJ style end level screen, It likes the game are care and potential to the scoring system.

And all Darius games has end level screen when after completing each stage the players must choice what's the next stage to go.

[S_Fang]

There is nothing more satisfying than seeing the picture of Reco pressing her chest on Palm's face after the final stage of Futari.

Edit: I guess my avatar is fitting...

Yes, that was an adorable reward along side the endings.

On topic, I really like seamless transitisions like Ketsui (score of the stage and the preview of the next one) and RayForce, as well end-screens with images explaining part of the story like Cave games (Espgaluda 1 and ESP.DA.RADE. has text too).

[Squire Grooktook]

Not coincidentally, three of the genre's finest in seamless stage transitions - Rayforce, Hyper Duel and Nemesis II GB - all contain atmospheric entry sequences. ^__^ HD's coincides with the space colony you were in being blown out of orbit and impacting the planet in a biblical explosion. Nemesis II brings the disabled st3 boss along for the ride, scorching it to oblivion as the Vic pierces the atmosphere in a ball of flames. Conversely, there is of course the sheer vertical rush of Eschatos's climb into space.

Seamless transitions are a great way to impart a sense of a contiguous world and cinema without sacrificing the genre's fundamental tightness. No reason you can't superimpose the usual score tally either, as HD and Ketsui do.

It's true, those are amazing. Seamless transitions are usually cited as better for a sense of "adventure". I believe Toaplan said something of the sort as well.

I actually have to wonder what comparable pace or "feel" advantages screen transitions bring as well.

Closest thing I can think of is that something like Dragon Saber might need them for its aesthetically diverse transitions from Plant Zone to Icecap Zone. Although, I have to wonder how cool it would be if at the end of stage 2, you dived into the lava vortex and had a high speed tunneling session before arriving at stage 3's H.R Giger Ruins.

Non Shmup example, but Shinobi 3/Super Shinobi 2's end stage black and white photos of Joe beating down the bosses are extremely memorable.

[davyK]

Yes. They can signpost some clues about the scoring scheme - and in 2 player mode can be fun to compare performances.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^As was pointed out, you can superimpose the tallies without a specific screen transition though.

[DJ Incompetent]

Stage 1 & 2, no.
Stage 3, 4, & 5, yeah.

[BIL]

I actually have to wonder what comparable pace or "feel" advantages screen transitions bring as well.

Closest thing I can think of is that something like Dragon Saber might need them for its aesthetically diverse transitions from Plant Zone to Icecap Zone. Although, I have to wonder how cool it would be if at the end of stage 2, you dived into the lava vortex and had a high speed tunneling session before arriving at stage 3's H.R Giger Ruins.

There's definitely something to be said for isolating stages - it can create a different but equally convincing sense of scale, if done right.

I always had the impression R-Type Delta was going for the aesthetic of a classified document. The intro CG kicks off with grainy "footage" of past games' events. The end-stage and Game Over screen transitions mimick the snap of a vintage monitor shutoff, with the Continue countdown fuzzing and snowing as if a signal is fading. And the scenario is a single operation within an ongoing war, stages naturally broken up into sequential "contacts" with the Bydo.

Einhander certainly proved the PS1 could handle a seamlessly progressing polygonal world, and it's fantastic in its own right - but in Delta's case I prefer there being a "hard cut" between its sunset metropolis and the later frozen wastes. Rather than the former's contiguous infiltrate and destroy mission, the latter is a scramble to eradicate the Bydo from Earth wherever they're found.

AC Gradius II and III are examples of seamless transitions actually working against cohesion, haha. Having the vast desert or pulsing artery you've just battled through unceremoniously disintegrate to the starfield feels almost dreamlike. Not necessarily a bad thing; it's less that the games couldn't, more that they simply didn't care to expend time before racking up the next colourful world.

(I do like how II has you fly through the shattered face of the boss Moai, and Gaiden clearly had some fun with a few of its transitions while keeping things traditionally snappy)

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^Yeah, Gradius's transitions always felt a bit insubstantial/anti-climactic at times to me. The disintegration I think hurts the feel of the stages a bit, and I think another part of it might be the omnipresence of the normal "space" background that you always return to. I think the unique stage transitions found in Rayforce, Dogyuun, Hyper Duel, etc. are necessary to nailing that "world"/adventure feel that the seamless-transitions are going for.

[S_Fang]

Non Shmup example, but Shinobi 3/Super Shinobi 2's end stage black and white photos of Joe beating down the bosses are extremely memorable.

The 19XX series has always the images of the plane with the destroyed boss left behind, just like a badass giving the cold shoulder.

[the_last_shmupper]

I thank you all for your answers and I'm happy this has caused a discussion

I have a follow up question to my original post...

Should a chain keep going between levels? There are ways to maintain such things for a potentially infinite amount of time. With or without a billboard, you can keep a chain going. Right now my "test levels" have around 550 enemies in total (there's a counter).

Would you as players prefer to keep chains going through every level or would you prefer to cut the chain as a forced breather? For those wondering, its not an all or nothing style. You get points for every kill + (chain * 0.25) or something like that.

I've got to admit there's something desirable to keeping a chain / combo going long after it should have broken.

On the other side of the coin, there should be imposed breathers for the pace of the game, peaks and valleys. having to maintain the chain keeps things peaked. However, only skilled players will make the choice to keep the chain going.

[Shepardus]

To me the scoring formula you describe is still an "all or nothing" style chain, since even if the chaining isn't the entire score, if you break your chain your scoring is still gimped for the rest of the game (or however long the chain can last) compared to what it could be; there isn't really any way to recover. In my experience it also makes it feel pointless to learn to chain part of a stage without learning the entire stage, since all the meaningful score gains come at the end of the chain, which makes learning and optimizing a game feel less like an organic process like in Ibara, Garegga, Ketsui, RayForce, Dragon Blaze, etc. and more like "memorize someone else's routes."

Chaining between stages is pretty rare as far as I know, but it does exist in games like Guwange (which, for the record, does have an end-of-stage screen - the chain timer just pauses during it), and there's at least one such stage transition where it's possible in Bakraid. To me it's like all the frustrations of stage-long chaining, except carried across the entire game.

Another question worth considering is whether you want chaining to play a role in boss battles. The Dodonpachi games adopt an entirely different chaining/hit counter formula for its boss battles (except DonPachi), but in Guwange you have to continue to keep your chain meter up, and in Bakraid chaining from the stages into certain bosses is a key part of scoring.

[Perikles]

Non Shmup example, but Shinobi 3/Super Shinobi 2's end stage black and white photos of Joe beating down the bosses are extremely memorable.

Psychic Storm and Kiaidan 00 (both PCE) have pictures like that, too. There's even a little animation in case of the latter one, depending on the weapon you used to deliver the mortal blow to the boss you get a different outcome. Only downside to this are the disruptive load times, but I still think they're worth the result.

[the_last_shmupper]

To me the scoring formula you describe is still an "all or nothing" style chain, since even if the chaining isn't the entire score, if you break your chain your scoring is still gimped for the rest of the game (or however long the chain can last) compared to what it could be; there isn't really any way to recover. In my experience it also makes it feel pointless to learn to chain part of a stage without learning the entire stage, since all the meaningful score gains come at the end of the chain, which makes learning and optimizing a game feel less like an organic process like in Ibara, Garegga, Ketsui, RayForce, Dragon Blaze, etc. and more like "memorize someone else's routes."

Chaining between stages is pretty rare as far as I know, but it does exist in games like Guwange (which, for the record, does have an end-of-stage screen - the chain timer just pauses during it), and there's at least one such stage transition where it's possible in Bakraid. To me it's like all the frustrations of stage-long chaining, except carried across the entire game.

Another question worth considering is whether you want chaining to play a role in boss battles. The Dodonpachi games adopt an entirely different chaining/hit counter formula for its boss battles (except DonPachi), but in Guwange you have to continue to keep your chain meter up, and in Bakraid chaining from the stages into certain bosses is a key part of scoring.

I thank you for your valuable insight and excellent examples. You are the sage of shmups.

Digging through the grievances thread:

Any game that requires you to chain the whole fucking game like it's one long memory sequence is an outright disaster anyway. Where's the fun in this zero-deviation-from-optimal-scoring/survival-path anyway?

In honesty that applies to lots of shmups but all-or-nothing-chain-scoring is the worst by far

So I can chalk it up to NO don't chain from level to level, unless I make a special setting in the menu to allow such crazy things along with a separate high score roster for that setting. Honestly making them not chain level to level would have saved some time, but experimentation never hurts. It felt like natural progression making seamless levels.

The bosses seem very adequate to a chain system. With the finished bosses and a lot of the sub-bosses, they have destructible parts that keep the chain alive, collectables, bombs and deaths also reset the chain timer. Lesser enemies during big boss fights keep the chain going too, but they don't infinitely spawn, because that would be an exploit. I will admit that its more difficult to keep the chain going during the bosses that I've been making.

I will look back in the combo thread and adjust how the scoring system works to make it less all-or-nothing.

Currently with the "messing around" phase of level development, the enemy placement is randomized. Again, just the messing around phase. The best I've been able to do killing enemies is like 50% per level.

I only have a few dedicated enemy placements and those that I've placed feel like a staircase, a pattern, one naturally leads to the next. If you move too fast, you can skip or miss them. So even as a first timer, you come in and clearly see the steps and can't miss them.

[Bananamatic]

trouserplank was a little bitch

dont listen to him