Walled Corridors

[the_last_shmupper]

Yay or nay? First of all thank you for tolerating my questions.

Do you like carefully flying between obstacles inside of corridors or do you prefer no obstacles with only bullets, lasers and projectiles to dodge? Lasers can divide the screen just as well as any wall. Do you prefer terrain or walls that destroy your ship or do you like to nuzzle up to a wall knowing it can't hurt you?

I think Gradius and Life Force have done things with destroyable barriers that lead through and regenerate. Would it break the genre to have doors unlock by points or collectables? If you don't unlock a door, there's still an open path, so you don't ultimately slam into a wall.

[BIL]

do you like to nuzzle up to a wall knowing it can't hurt you?

Have to admit it's nice rubbing up on R-Type Delta's safe walls. I think Einhander and later Border Down made a good compromise though. Bumping a wall won't kill you, but grinding along it (or rapidly bumping it in a short span) eventually will. I think there should be some reaction. Blast Wind feels really unnatural with walls doing absolutely nothing - even Delta has the ship visibly jostle and spark. So sensual! *rub rub*

Would it break the genre to have doors unlock by points or collectables? If you don't unlock a door, there's still an open path, so you don't ultimately slam into a wall.

Stuff like Psyvariar 2 and Raiden Fighters Jet alter stage order depending on your score, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to incorporate that into barriers within the stages themselves. Sounds like it could be fun.

[Shepardus]

I can think of good examples of all three of those styles (no walls / walls you can touch / walls you can't touch), it really depends on how you use them. I do think environmental hazards tend to work better in slower-paced games like R-Type, Radiant Silvergun, etc., and horizontal shooters tend to have more options than vertical shooters when it comes to environmental hazards that actually look cool. Also do note that nonlethal walls combined with autoscrolling can lead to some really funky collision detection if you're stuck behind a wall as it's scrolling off the screen (which is especially easy to do if your bomb invulnerability lets you pass through walls - see Hellsinker's stage 5).

I've thought about the concept of having doors/alternate paths unlock via special conditions, and it sounds interesting to me, but having it unlocked through points alone seems boring and restrictive to me, which is the opposite of what such a concept should be. Collectibles might work, as would killing certain special enemies (see Armed Police Batrider's secret boss triggers).

[Cagar]

Final Boss (the best stg ever) handles wall-collisions in a neat way.
You won't die if you hug a wall, but it will emit sparks and your chain/multiplier will decrease much faster.
Quickly hitting a wall is not that big of a problem, but actually hugging one even for a brief moment will most likely break your chain/multiplier.
It's pretty neat punish to scoring, and to survival as well, because without score you won't get the extends. (and stage 2, where the walls are, is where a beginner is most likely going to get one)

[Squire Grooktook]

I fucking love walls and environmental hazards. Give everything a sense of adventure and more to work around than just bullets.

Whether touching walls kills you or not depends on the type of game. I can think of good examples of both (walls kill you: R-Type, Gradius, Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga) (walls don't kill you: Final Boss, Elemental Master, Guwange, Strania to an extent, Super Aleste, etc.)

[mamboFoxtrot]

+1 for walls that only kill you if you try to aggressively mate with them. Too many times I've nicked the back pixel of my ship and R-Type and ASPLODED, and I'm just like, WTF is this ship made of? Explodium? I didn't realize I was flying a fucking Pinto! For games where you're a flying human, though, damage by regular walls doesn't make a lot of sense unless you're flying at mach speed.

Of course, don't forget that there's more to a walls than just crashing in to them. Being able to use them for cover, or placing them so that you can't shoot a turret without maneuvering over it is a pretty common and interesting design point in many STGs that have them.

e: P-47 Aces is kind of a funny game on this. Not only do you just bounce off of everything, you get points every time you do it! Then there's the silly glitch where you get stuck inside of something and rack up points every frame!

[the_last_shmupper]

Final Boss (the best stg ever) handles wall-collisions in a neat way.
You won't die if you hug a wall, but it will emit sparks and your chain/multiplier will decrease much faster.
Quickly hitting a wall is not that big of a problem, but actually hugging one even for a brief moment will most likely break your chain/multiplier.
It's pretty neat punish to scoring, and to survival as well, because without score you won't get the extends. (and stage 2, where the walls are, is where a beginner is most likely going to get one)

You like the combos, but I definitely like the fact it all seems like gravity is a factor there. At least from the video I've seen. Seeing the enemies fall and scroll looks very nice. The minimalist color pallet looks great as well.

Would it break the genre to have doors unlock by points or collectables? If you don't unlock a door, there's still an open path, so you don't ultimately slam into a wall.

Stuff like Psyvariar 2 and Raiden Fighters Jet alter stage order depending on your score, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to incorporate that into barriers within the stages themselves. Sounds like it could be fun.

Well I'm happy someone likes the idea. I'm always afraid to go too against the grain, but that's why I'm here to gather up what's acceptable.

I do think environmental hazards tend to work better in slower-paced games like R-Type, Radiant Silvergun, etc., and horizontal shooters tend to have more options than vertical shooters when it comes to environmental hazards that actually look cool. Also do note that nonlethal walls combined with autoscrolling can lead to some really funky collision detection if you're stuck behind a wall as it's scrolling off the screen (which is especially easy to do if your bomb invulnerability lets you pass through walls - see Hellsinker's stage 5).

I'm starting to rethink the choice of having a top down shooter, just because gravity and a side view can make interesting things. I guess that top downs can still have wall hazards like plasma walls instead of lava floors. You're right about collision detection with auto scrolling, I've worked on it and other frills for about 10 hours today and yesterday. I like where I have it right now, but it doesn't feel perfect. You need to push backward off instead of side to side. I'll still need to work on it longer to get it where I want it.

Right now its the view that's moving, not the walls. To compensate for the view moving, the ship is always moving forward, so it drags the ship into a wall making the collision take effect to keep the ship out of the walls.

I've got it so you get smashed and explode, but respawning just instantly sticks you right under the wall you blew up on. Instead of blowing up when you hit a wall, you go snug against it, but get kind of stuck if the ship's nose is against it. There still seems to be a rare case where you can slam an edge and maybe a 1% chance you'll explode. For any wall to make you explode, you need to really be inside the wall about 16px from the center.

Enemies still have no collision detection against walls yet, so they fly right through them. A way to explain this would be you're at a lower altitude, but I don't want to explain it I'll just work longer and make it happen.

I made destructible and regenerating walls where even the enemies can destroy them. Then they fade in within 2 steps of alpha transparency to motivate and warn you that they're about to become solid again.

================= 2 hours later ============

Now thanks to approval of the forum, I made collectable keys and shootable doors. Well by doors I mean blocks that you shoot and shooting 1 block destroys them all. There can unlimited keys that the player carries once they've been collected. Its still imperfect and destroys a lot of the blocks but not 100% of them. I made a test with 30 - 50 blocks that should open and they don't. Imagine Gauntlet doors rather than crisp doors that slide open.

I'll get back to it later, but for now its done. Making 12 hours on walls, collision dynamics, doors, and other related frills. Not that I'm complaining, I just keep notes about what took how much time.

Thank you all for your input! For every wall where collision doesn't kill you, I'm sure I'll make a hazard that does or at least damages you like flying through a plasma wall. Lasers that turn on and off if not reflect in a zig zag, crushing walls and moving walls on conveyer belts.

[the_last_shmupper]

+1 for walls that only kill you if you try to aggressively mate with them. Too many times I've nicked the back pixel of my ship and R-Type and ASPLODED, and I'm just like, WTF is this ship made of? Explodium? I didn't realize I was flying a fucking Pinto! For games where you're a flying human, though, damage by regular walls doesn't make a lot of sense unless you're flying at mach speed.

Of course, don't forget that there's more to a walls than just crashing in to them. Being able to use them for cover, or placing them so that you can't shoot a turret without maneuvering over it is a pretty common and interesting design point in many STGs that have them.

LOL at Explodium. Well it does have a fuel source of some sort, but yeah would it explode if the hull or paint took damage? Its just easier to program explosion on collision. Especially with auto scrolling.

I'm happy people are cool with walls

[Squire Grooktook]

Stuff like Psyvariar 2 and Raiden Fighters Jet alter stage order depending on your score, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to incorporate that into barriers within the stages themselves. Sounds like it could be fun.

That is a very interesting idea. Armed Police Batrider's alternate bosses also come to mind. Perhaps if a "door" lead to a split in the stage (think Blast Wind or G-Darius) and a different boss encounter?

[Shepardus]

Hellsinker also has two different paths in stage 5, and there are periodic portals that you can choose to enter that will transfer you from one path to the other. The boss you get at the end of the stage depends on what path you're in at the end. Incidentally, that same stage also takes place in a winding corridor of sorts and the scrolling changes directions as it follows the path. You might want to take a look at that.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

I dig walls. I wish more bullet hell style games had them.

[system11]

I miss scenery being part of the actual gameplay.

[Squire Grooktook]

I dig walls. I wish more bullet hell style games had them.

I miss scenery being part of the actual gameplay.

I could not agree with these posts more.

[gray117]

I'd like to see a game that had this 'ocurring' often and in a rational way... I.e. Not like uh oh its the puzzle or maze section.

Rather that outright destroying someone clipping a wall could just disrupt fire and/or dink player position... Repeated grinding or something more major would then result in death...

[the_last_shmupper]

Hellsinker also has two different paths in stage 5, and there are periodic portals that you can choose to enter that will transfer you from one path to the other. The boss you get at the end of the stage depends on what path you're in at the end. Incidentally, that same stage also takes place in a winding corridor of sorts and the scrolling changes directions as it follows the path. You might want to take a look at that.

I think I will! I've currently got everything setup to be turnable. Giant bosses, the player, enemies, everything is able to turn all 360 degrees even if they don't. The player just moves north currently, but its still possible. Enemies can turn dynamically depending on their AI.

I need to look into turning the view rather than turning the objects. I might be stuck having to turn everything, which I don't imagine going smoothly. Now I realize hmmm I wonder what the bombs should do and how I'll need to program them to stay on their side of a wall. Oh logistics... Come to think of it if an option doesn't collide with a wall, why should a bomb?

As for Gray mentioning mazes, yeah I'm no fan of mazes. That's one thing I can't imagine in a shmup so much as branching pathways. If I make a maze, I might as well make Gauntlet with 360 degree turning.

[ciox]

I'd like to see a game that had this 'ocurring' often and in a rational way... I.e. Not like uh oh its the puzzle or maze section.

Rather that outright destroying someone clipping a wall could just disrupt fire and/or dink player position... Repeated grinding or something more major would then result in death...

Armed Police Unit Gallop (1991) handles this type of stuff the best IMO, you bounce away from the surface hard but regain control immediately after so it's a very brief punishment only for the moment you actually allowed the contact to happen and then it's over, feels shmup-like, moreso than invisible lifebar stuff.

Now I realize hmmm I wonder what the bombs should do and how I'll need to program them to stay on their side of a wall. Oh logistics... Come to think of it if an option doesn't collide with a wall, why should a bomb?

Yeah don't sweat it, terrain-heavy shmups never worried too much about this stuff, flying enemies don't collide with terrain they're just programmed sometimes to fly around it in a fixed route when the level designer can be arsed to do that, like the Force in R-Type pretty much does whatever it wants with regards to collision, sometimes phasing through stuff, sometimes not, whatever the designers thought worked best in that instance.

[the_last_shmupper]

Yeah don't sweat it, terrain-heavy shmups never worried too much about this stuff, flying enemies don't collide with terrain they're just programmed sometimes to fly around it in a fixed route when the level designer can be arsed to do that, like the Force in R-Type pretty much does whatever it wants with regards to collision, sometimes phasing through stuff, sometimes not, whatever the designers thought worked best in that instance.

Here's a question.... so right now you can't collide with walls, your ship has health, lasers and projectiles damage you, but if a ship collides with you, you're dead and blow up, instantly killed. Is that acceptable or should I make lesser enemies explode and the player's ship take damage? I have the player dying currently because its more believable and it gives you incentive to take a laser rather than another ship hitting you.

[ciox]

Yeah don't sweat it, terrain-heavy shmups never worried too much about this stuff, flying enemies don't collide with terrain they're just programmed sometimes to fly around it in a fixed route when the level designer can be arsed to do that, like the Force in R-Type pretty much does whatever it wants with regards to collision, sometimes phasing through stuff, sometimes not, whatever the designers thought worked best in that instance.

Here's a question.... so right now you can't collide with walls, your ship has health, lasers and projectiles damage you, but if a ship collides with you, you're dead and blow up, instantly killed. Is that acceptable or should I make lesser enemies explode and the player's ship take damage? I have the player dying currently because its more believable and it gives you incentive to take a laser rather than another ship hitting you.

I dunno, I've encountered this type of setup before but to me it always felt arbitrary that enemy collisions and bullet collisions hurt you in different ways since they kinda work the same as a threat (smaller physics object that's moving around a lot), I'd just have one effect for terrain and one for everything else. What you see sometimes in games with a lot of bullets is that enemies don't have collision or colliding with them only depowers you, but this is very rare.

[Despatche]

Stuff like Psyvariar 2 and Raiden Fighters Jet alter stage order depending on your score, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to incorporate that into barriers within the stages themselves. Sounds like it could be fun.

yeah, this actually sounds really cool. however, i feel like basing it on score rewards the player "more than they need", so to speak; you're getting rewarded multiple times for the same action. unless, of course, the unlockable routes aren't as good for scoring, in which case they'd then be useless.

i prefer a more straightforward "have multiple difficulties and each difficulty has changes in stage design".

[Squire Grooktook]

Stuff like Psyvariar 2 and Raiden Fighters Jet alter stage order depending on your score, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to incorporate that into barriers within the stages themselves. Sounds like it could be fun.

yeah, this actually sounds really cool. however, i feel like basing it on score rewards the player "more than they need", so to speak; you're getting rewarded multiple times for the same action.

How about this: High scoring unlocks a potential alternate path, which you are free to choose if you so desire.

Said alternate path has higher scoring potential, but is much harder for survival.

So as a reward for scoring high, you get a choice: now you can go for an easier survival route, or try to risk it all for even bigger rewards. It might also have the sight effect of getting players who aren't normally interested in scoring to put more effort in, due to curious and "I want to see more!" effect.

[system11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulrq4rkQPqo

This one is a nice halfway point, but I also like ones where the scenery shifts sometimes.

[Shepardus]

Yeah don't sweat it, terrain-heavy shmups never worried too much about this stuff, flying enemies don't collide with terrain they're just programmed sometimes to fly around it in a fixed route when the level designer can be arsed to do that, like the Force in R-Type pretty much does whatever it wants with regards to collision, sometimes phasing through stuff, sometimes not, whatever the designers thought worked best in that instance.

Here's a question.... so right now you can't collide with walls, your ship has health, lasers and projectiles damage you, but if a ship collides with you, you're dead and blow up, instantly killed. Is that acceptable or should I make lesser enemies explode and the player's ship take damage? I have the player dying currently because its more believable and it gives you incentive to take a laser rather than another ship hitting you.

Frankly I wouldn't worry about believability, I just find enemy collisions being more punishing than the bullet collisions (the things you're really supposed to dodge in the genre) to be unnecessarily frustrating. Some games like Mars Matrix are just fine without any enemy collisions at all. Another possibility is how in Gunbird 2 colliding with an enemy decreases your power level but doesn't kill you.

So as a reward for scoring high, you get a choice: now you can go for an easier survival route, or try to risk it all for even bigger rewards. It might also have the sight effect of getting players who aren't normally interested in scoring to put more effort in, due to curious and "I want to see more!" effect.

There's the potential to end up with a situation where you need the extra score from one branch to get enough for the next one, which you need to get enough score for the one after that, etc., essentially turning it into either taking all of the secret branches or none of them, which I think would be a waste of potential. Of course, if it's balanced such that you don't need the extra score then that point is mostly moot, but I still think it's more interesting for environmental landmarks like that to have environmental triggers.

[Squire Grooktook]

There's the potential to end up with a situation where you need the extra score from one branch to get enough for the next one, which you need to get enough score for the one after that, etc., essentially turning it into either taking all of the secret branches or none of them,

Or that could mean that you gradually work your way through them while mastering the game.

This could actually be an interesting way of adaptively balancing difficulty. When players get to the point that they find stage 1 and 2 easy, they can take the alternate routes, then go back to the normal route when the game gets too hard for them again. Keep working your way up, and adding the harder paths to your route one by one, until you're able to do them all.

Another alternative is that it's not based on total score overall, but based on performance in the stage. IE the way Ikaruga gives you a letter grade for each stage.

A third alternative, and a compromise with the environmental landmarks, would that there would be little gimmicks in stages that are worth a lot of score, and trigger the harder route when activated. IE bomb the birds in Garegga = harder route opened or set.

[Skykid]

Corridors.

Sorry, driving me nuts.

[the_last_shmupper]

Corridors.

Sorry, driving me nuts.

Weird, I thought Firefox would have told me I misspelled it.

Corridors.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I like the way Strania does it. You can bump into walls and some enemies, but actively grind into one for longer than a second or two and you'll take a hit. Games where no collision damage on walls exist is cool too, but it's important to make sure it's obvious what counts as safe scenery and what doesn't.

What's the earliest shmups example with same scenery? The one that comes to mind is Dr. Toppel's adventure made by Namco.

[gameoverDude]

I like the way Sidearms does it: collisions with walls generally don't kill you, unless they push you off the edge of the screen. This makes the MBL weapon fun to use- sometimes you can hug walls for cover, while its shot goes through them to hit enemies on the other side.