XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Grimakis]

Well you're the first person I come across that needs a stripper for an SNES. What happened with composite video for sync with the Mini?

Unstable picture. It's a multi-chip NTSC console (you can keep your little clone console 1 chips thanks )

Haven't visited this thread in months so imagine my surprise to see there is a new FW out and the fantastic work FBX is doing with the profiles, thanks FBX!!

Personally though I'd still rather have my scanlines. These games were designed on screens with scanlines to be played on such. Plus as long as the image looks good when you eyeball it (scrolling vertically and horizontally) I wouldn't obsess about trying to get every pixel exactly uniform. It's not like the Mini uses some cheap integer scaling anyway.

Not to say it's "wrong" to use them of course, each to their own.

I know you ended on "to each their own" but if I'm spending this much time and money on an upscaler box and cables and the console with the best video output I may as well go the extra mile and download a profile so scanlines are doable in 1080p.

The 1080p scanlines work if you use Smart 2x scaling(really 4x for 240p), FBXs profiles or not. The only catch is you are underscanning the image big time. With a 5x profile you are overscanning the image just a bit, but many games have black borders on the top and bottom anyway.

The benefit is with profiles, you can switch between 4x and 5x scaling for individual games since the setup time is much lower now(just load the right profile)

I don't even use scanlines though. The image becomes too dark, and fails to give that CRT appearance. At this point I'm just happy to have a clean picture, with crisp pixels and nice color.

Regards,
george

[Grimakis]

No RGB N64? Is PS2 composite or component?

Question on genesis, for the hell of it I flew off the handle and just made it go all the way to the left and there's this solid blue bezel(?) on the sides, is that supposed to be cut off? Is that ever anything in any Genesis game?

Your Genesis alignment looks good now. The SNES one has a pixel cut off on the left side, so you'll need to shift the ZOOM_H_POS over some until you can see it.

Don't worry about the blue background on the sides of the Genesis image, there are never any graphics in those areas. It's just a weird background color setting the extends beyond the graphics on the Genesis. Some people complain about it, and want an overlay mask they can use to crop the edges of the Genesis graphics so they can't see the colored border.

Lastly, I don't have an RGB modded N64, so I can only work on S-Video. The PS2 profiles are done with using the official Sony component cables hooked into the D-terminal on the mini.

Speaking of which, I just finished the PS2 profiles and added them to the zip package. I also included a comprehensive list of instructions and notes about each profile. Here's the package link again:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... ofiles.zip

Just use S-Video for your profile for N64. Thats what I am using

[FBX]

Plus as long as the image looks good when you eyeball it (scrolling vertically and horizontally) I wouldn't obsess about trying to get every pixel exactly uniform. It's not like the Mini uses some cheap integer scaling anyway.

Well for me, I have to obsess because even the slightest vertically lopsided pixel glares out at me in 1080p. Obviously using 720p mode masks the misshapen pixels when upscaled by a 1080p display, but the cost is about 15% reduction in sharpness. Since I love razor-sharp pixels, it was to my own benefit to dial in the perfect 4x and 5x scale settings for 1080p output.

And for the record, the mini's scaling very much shows lopsided pixels when not dialed in properly. The only default modes that are correctly scaled on the vertical axis are "SMART_1X" and "SMART_2X", but of course, they are not aspect-corrected.

[lettuce]

FXB where can i download your latest profiles from?

[Smashbro29]

The 1080p scanlines work if you use Smart 2x scaling(really 4x for 240p)

I honestly can't see how anyone would elect to play games in anything but 5x maybe maybe 4x but anything less and you're basically looking at the world's smallest picture on your TV.

Your Genesis alignment looks good now. The SNES one has a pixel cut off on the left side, so you'll need to shift the ZOOM_H_POS over some until you can see it.

Thanks, here's what it looks like now:

Spoiler

Also, profile or not RGB N64 looks so nice. You should go the extra mile, highly recommended.

[FBX]

Looking good now, smashbro!

BTW, I noticed some slight vertical jailbars in your Genesis graphics, and some slight diagonal ones in your SNES graphics. If you want to go all out on both for best possible image, here's what I did:

Original NTSC Genesis Hi-Def console: sever the pin-50 lead going out from the VDP chip. This makes it to where the RGB output is completely clean, but the downside is you no longer have access to composite video (like we'd want that crappy signal anyway).

For SNES: Get a 1CHIP-03 revision and then mod the CSync line back on.

As it is with these two consoles, I've got flawless picture quality.

[Fudoh]

For SNES: Get a 1CHIP-03 revision and then mod the CSync line back on.

there's really no need for the latter part. Won't make a visible difference.

1CHIP-01 and -02 are just as fine once a little fix for that vertical stripe problem is applied. Getting a 1CHIP is hard enough and not being limited to -03 models is a good start.

[lettuce]

Hmmm the picture isnt filling the vertical with your GENRGBX5 profile FBX, is it supposed to?

[Smashbro29]

Looking good now, smashbro!

BTW, I noticed some slight vertical jailbars in your Genesis graphics, and some slight diagonal ones in your SNES graphics. If you want to go all out on both for best possible image, here's what I did:

Original NTSC Genesis Hi-Def console: sever the pin-50 lead going out from the VDP chip. This makes it to where the RGB output is completely clean, but the downside is you no longer have access to composite video (like we'd want that crappy signal anyway).

For SNES: Get a 1CHIP-03 revision and then mod the CSync line back on.

As it is with these two consoles, I've got flawless picture quality.

To be honest the scart plugs don't connect so well and I do manually swap them out so that could be it. Sometimes I lose right speaker on Genesis until I jiggle it a little.

If I feel brave or I find someone who'll do it for money I'd love to have someone touch up my Genesis. I put a ton of time into getting the perfect model.

I found my SNES in someone's trash on my way back home from school years ago, I guess a new hunt begins.

Losing composite completely I guess isn't a big deal, could always fall back on my model 2 if I need composite for some reason.

[FBX]

For SNES: Get a 1CHIP-03 revision and then mod the CSync line back on.

there's really no need for the latter part. Won't make a visible difference.

If you have a CSync cable, it won't work without that mod being done. If you mean it won't look any better than sync-on-composite, refer to 9:22 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlrdCBjUAQ

[Grimakis]

The 1080p scanlines work if you use Smart 2x scaling(really 4x for 240p)

I honestly can't see how anyone would elect to play games in anything but 5x maybe maybe 4x but anything less and you're basically looking at the world's smallest picture on your TV.

Your Genesis alignment looks good now. The SNES one has a pixel cut off on the left side, so you'll need to shift the ZOOM_H_POS over some until you can see it.

Thanks, here's what it looks like now:

Spoiler

Also, profile or not RGB N64 looks so nice. You should go the extra mile, highly recommended.

Right, just saying though. The Smart 2x feature is a 4x integer scale for 240p. The 2x refers to the scaling being applied to the 480p signal coming off the linedoubler.

[Fudoh]

If you mean it won't look any better than sync-on-composite, refer to 9:22 in this video:

as they say in the video "it can look better". But that's not the case on the 1CHIP SNES units.

[Skips]

If you mean it won't look any better than sync-on-composite, refer to 9:22 in this video:

as they say in the video "it can look better". But that's not the case on the 1CHIP SNES units.

Using composite sync versus composite video as sync does provide a difference even on the XRGB. Depending on what filtering mode you use (and whether or not your TV has some sort of noise reduction) you may still see the diagonal lines caused by the noise in the chroma information in the composite video signal if you are using composite video as sync. Even with the XRGB mini you still want to use composite sync on the SNES or pass composite video through an LM1881n to get rid of this issue. I have a 1-Chip SNES and was able to clearly see the diagonal lines on the mini when using composite video as sync. All versions of the SNES have this issue, including the 1-Chip and SNES 2.

Also, does anyone know if the 2.0 firmware fixes that annoying analog noise issue in some colors? I no longer have an XRGB but am wondering if the new firmware fixed it or added an option that makes it WAY less noticeable than it was. Before you could adjust the A/D level but depending on your monitor it could still be pretty noticeable even after that.

[Fudoh]

I'll gladly have another look. A have a japanese 1CHIP-03 SFC. C-Sync restored and both cables on hand. I sometimes use the one, sometimes the other. So far I couldn't spot a difference.

[BuckoA51]

The 1080p scanlines work if you use Smart 2x scaling(really 4x for 240p), FBXs profiles or not. The only catch is you are underscanning the image big time.

Ah right I see, yeah I don't like those razor thin scanlines at all that some people have been showing off, each to their own though.

If you like scanlines I still don't think you can beat the XRGB3/DVDO combo personally, especially if you like to put a little zoom on things too.

[lettuce]

So you get integer scale with x4 and x5 with FBX profiles?, theres no way to get the display to fill the vertical and get even scanlines?

[eightbitminiboss]

So you get integer scale with x4 and x5 with FBX profiles?, theres no way to get the display to fill the vertical and get even scanlines?

Hmmm the picture isnt filling the vertical with your GENRGBX5 profile FBX, is it supposed to?

On the 5x profile, it should be top to bottom on your display with some overscan (believe FBX said 4 pixels on both sides). Are you loading the profile with Load or Load Select? Load Select seems to ignore some settings and applies others. Load applies all settings that FBX made in the profile. Other than that, check if your display is set to 1:1 pixel mode.

4x will have underscan and be the entire image of the console.

[Smashbro29]

If you mean it won't look any better than sync-on-composite, refer to 9:22 in this video:

as they say in the video "it can look better". But that's not the case on the 1CHIP SNES units.

But would agree that it's good practice to try and keep your setup c-sync otherwise?

[Fudoh]

But would agree that it's good practice to try and keep your setup c-sync otherwise?

it certainly doesn't hurt. MD and AES are the classic examples where it can make a huge difference. Saturn usually doesn't matter. SNES has too many revisions to really put a finger onto it. Region makes a difference as well. For example using Luma instead of composite video on PS1 and PS2 hardly makes a difference on NTSC systems, but it's a big plus on PAL systems.

[TheShadowRunner]

But would agree that it's good practice to try and keep your setup c-sync otherwise?

it certainly doesn't hurt. MD and AES are the classic examples where it can make a huge difference. Saturn usually doesn't matter. SNES has too many revisions to really put a finger onto it. Region makes a difference as well. For example using Luma instead of composite video on PS1 and PS2 hardly makes a difference on NTSC systems, but it's a big plus on PAL systems.

Luma sync instead of composite video sync makes a huge difference on NTSC (JPN) PS1 & PS2 as well, the checkerboard effect completely removed.

[Smashbro29]

But would agree that it's good practice to try and keep your setup c-sync otherwise?

it certainly doesn't hurt. MD and AES are the classic examples where it can make a huge difference. Saturn usually doesn't matter. SNES has too many revisions to really put a finger onto it. Region makes a difference as well. For example using Luma instead of composite video on PS1 and PS2 hardly makes a difference on NTSC systems, but it's a big plus on PAL systems.

Luma sync instead of composite video sync makes a huge difference on NTSC (JPN) PS1 & PS2 as well, the checkerboard effect completely removed.

So it's not cut and dry go for c-sync? It varies per system? If so, what's the NTSC rundown?

[TheShadowRunner]

So it's not cut and dry go for c-sync? It varies per system? If so, what's the NTSC rundown?

Csync is always the best (but may not make any difference versus composite video sync on certain setups...), however PS1/2/3 don't have a dedicated Csync line on the Multi-AV. For this case getting sync from Luma is the only/best solution.

[Smashbro29]

So it's not cut and dry go for c-sync? It varies per system? If so, what's the NTSC rundown?

Csync is always the best (but may not make any difference versus composite video sync on certain setups...), however PS1/2/3 don't have a dedicated Csync line on the Multi-AV. For this case getting sync from Luma is the only/best solution.

http://www.retrorgb.com/csync.html#PS1

I found something.

Also, how can I tell if I have csync?

[Grimakis]

The 1080p scanlines work if you use Smart 2x scaling(really 4x for 240p), FBXs profiles or not. The only catch is you are underscanning the image big time.

Ah right I see, yeah I don't like those razor thin scanlines at all that some people have been showing off, each to their own though.

If you like scanlines I still don't think you can beat the XRGB3/DVDO combo personally, especially if you like to put a little zoom on things too.

With the new Framemeister fw update, you can make the scanline thicker and more realistic, but the brightness really takes a hit, as basically half the screen becomes black. They look good up close, but in reality the image becomes too dark.

Regard,
George

[Pasky]

What? You could always change the intensity of the scanlines to make the screen darker. They added features to make them less uniform and more realistic of a CRT.

[Coryoon]

After thinking that all my issues were resolved by having two leads, I am still having synch issues with arcade PCBs through my SIGMA AV5000.

Basically I get a really jumpy / flickery picture, and after wacking up the synch to 26 it seems to calm it down, but some systems like MVS and CPS III still don't like it.

CPS II is kind of stable at 26, but it is just on the borderline of acceptable -given how amazing my Neo homecart, PCE and Saturn look.

I use a standard lead for the consoles and to get any picture at all from my supergun I use a synch stripper lead. Well actually I bought two stripper cables, one from retro cables UK and the other from the US eBay seller that daisy-chains the power supply. Turns out that the external powered cable actually makes things worse!

[Pasky]

Try terminating the Sync signal with a 75 resistor to ground in one of the cables closest to the framemeister.

[BuckoA51]

With the new Framemeister fw update, you can make the scanline thicker and more realistic, but the brightness really takes a hit, as basically half the screen becomes black. They look good up close, but in reality the image becomes too dark.

I tried every option but at 1080p they're still too thin and just look weird.

So it's not cut and dry go for c-sync? It varies per system? If so, what's the NTSC rundown?

The Mini doesn't really need it in most cases (unlike the XRGB3) but I'm not aware of it having any negative impact. So an accurate statement would be that it either helps or makes no difference. Before you buy all C-Sync cables though, be aware that some consumer SCART CRTs don't accept clean sync (c-sync).

[FBX]

So you get integer scale with x4 and x5 with FBX profiles?, theres no way to get the display to fill the vertical and get even scanlines?

Correct. The scanlines only line up if you have correctly scaled pixels (i.e. 4x and 5x). The 5x should not only fill your screen, but actually cut off 4 pixels from the top and bottom. Since the 5x mode is obviously working properly for others that have tried it, there must be something strange about your setup. After you load the profile, double-check the ZOOM function and make sure it's set to "ON", and of course make sure you're outputting 1080p HDMI to a 1080p display.

With the new Framemeister fw update, you can make the scanline thicker and more realistic, but the brightness really takes a hit, as basically half the screen becomes black. They look good up close, but in reality the image becomes too dark.

I tried every option but at 1080p they're still too thin and just look weird.

Yeah they are too thin due to them being based on lower resolutions (720p for example). I remember years ago when I used to play Neo Geo on MAME, it had the exact same scanline issue if you played the games at 4x scale. They looked great at 2x scale, but 4x ended up being a '3 lines of light versus 1 line of dark' for each pixel.

[marqs]

So it's not cut and dry go for c-sync? It varies per system? If so, what's the NTSC rundown?

Csync is always the best (but may not make any difference versus composite video sync on certain setups...), however PS1/2/3 don't have a dedicated Csync line on the Multi-AV. For this case getting sync from Luma is the only/best solution.

http://www.retrorgb.com/csync.html#PS1

I found something.

Also, how can I tell if I have csync?

I think you also need to add a buffer IC if you tap c-sync from the video IC, as it may not have enough drive strength for 75ohm load. What I did with my PS1 was lifting and grounding the subcarrier pin of CXA1645, which effectively turns composite video output to luma. No special cables or extra wiring is required with that approach, but you lose cvbs output (if that matters).

You can easily tell if a signal is pure csync by hooking it to a TV's composite input, which should result to synced solid black (or white) picture.