The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[STG]

Thanks pestro87. The run was a nice way to finish up the weekend. Although nabbing that ALL would have been ridiculous, felt like I had it on the fingertips!

Next time though, I'll get it!

[Blinge]

Whoa! he looks a bit different!

[BIL]

I'm leaving this here for an absent friend; please don't disturb. :[

Spoiler

[Blinge]

That feel when don't know what to play next

[Jonst]

^ I'm there man!...

[pokemon123]

I keep on thinking people will laugh at me if I submit a bad score if I ever clear something so I'm playing games for score and it's making me end up dislike them because I just don't like to play for score at all.

[Giest118]

I keep on thinking people will laugh at me if I submit a bad score if I ever clear something so I'm playing games for score and it's making me end up dislike them because I just don't like to play for score at all.

Only morons laugh at a clear of a hard game, even if the score is meh. If survival is the way you want to play, then play for survival bro.

[Stevens]

I keep on thinking people will laugh at me if I submit a bad score if I ever clear something so I'm playing games for score and it's making me end up dislike them because I just don't like to play for score at all.

Agree with Geist.

Play in whatever manner brings you the most enjoyment. At the end of the day they're only games and games are supposed to be fun.

[ACSeraph]

I keep on thinking people will laugh at me if I submit a bad score if I ever clear something so I'm playing games for score and it's making me end up dislike them because I just don't like to play for score at all.

If someone laughs at your hard fought clear of a shmup it's because they have a tiny dick.

[pegboy]

In response to the score vs survival, I'm probably the only one on here that thinks this but here it is: if you didn't clear the game, your score is meaningless. Not clearing the game is the same as losing, at least it is in my mind.

[ACSeraph]

In response to the score vs survival, I'm probably the only one on here that thinks this but here it is: if you didn't clear the game, your score is meaningless. Not clearing the game is the same as losing, at least it is in my mind.

I totally respect pure scoreplay, but just for me personally I actually agree, no matter how high it is I can never be personally satisfied with a score where I didn't clear. But I don't apply the same line of thought to the scoreplay of others.

[S_Fang]

I'm really starting to become intolerant about the lack of hit-box in old maniac shooters, especially Ketsui: I cannot rely on luck for dodging those dense and sparse patterns. Was that awful to add a little crappy sprite that indicates the hit-box in the re-releases or what? Is not enough to make things less frustrating by adding credit feeding and the option to unlock the loops without the requirements respected (very handy, though).

Regarding Ketsui, the disparities between Tiger and Panzer are annoying: one is too slow to dodge fast bullets unless you memorize the exact trajectory's speed of each one; and the other is really fast but its movements in focus shot are too fast for certain patterns (e.g. Stage2 boss' last phase; Stage3 boss' last phase).

At last, I really have to be clear about how much I loathe the directionals of the Sony controller and anyone who thoughts that having a stiff cross without diagonals is functional. Such things should be banned for the amount of mistreatment they cause to the thumbs and let everyone follow the same style of the X360's controller.

[pokemon123]

thanks guys. Yeah just trying to play games for survival and not to focus on score and it's much more fun.

@s_l I genuinely think that the ps3 controller has easily been the worst controller i've ever used to play shmups. I find a keyboard suits me more. Also agree on the hitboxes. Super used to bullet hell so always screw up the hitboxes on games like batrider and bakraid since i'm not used to the majority of the ship being a hitbox.

[endoKarb]

so I'm playing games for score and it's making me end up dislike them because I just don't like to play for score at all.

and that's why we need more survival based competition like Death Roulette Ura

[Bananamatic]

you can't really "play for score" unless you know what the hell you are doing and have a route for the whole thing

if you just do your usual blind survival credit but try to score at the same time, you're just 10x more likely to die doing it and actually get less score than when playing for survival
if that's your definition of playing for score then I can totally see why people don't like playing for score

[ACSeraph]

^Yep, that's an important point too. You gotta learn to walk before you learn to run.

[endoKarb]

if you just do your usual blind survival credit but try to score at the same time, you're just 10x more likely to die doing it and actually get less score than when playing for survival
if that's your definition of playing for score then I can totally see why people don't like playing for score

That is true.
I can guarantee though, if had focused on scoring instead of survival these past two weeks or so playing DOJ Black:

- I would have scored higher than 70 mil by now
- I probably wouldn't have cleared the game
- I would have quit by now


I've been there so many times. Too bad the leaderboards still mostly encourage this kind of playstyle.

[ACSeraph]

Too bad the leaderboards still mostly encourage this kind of playstyle.

It makes sense that it would though, given that it's the only way to have direct measurable competition. I think it's best to view leaderboard participation as a next step for players who want to take the games beyond standard survival play. But that word beyond would suggest you need to learn survival play first.

The problem is a lot of players seem to think competetive leaderboard play is the only meaningful way to enjoy these games, which simply isn't true. I think some players also have a bit of an inferiority complex about their clears not being meaningful in the face of more extreme playstyles, but they should stop thinking that way. A 1cc is a significant milestone on the road to total mastery. You should be proud of it, and not feel compelled to take the game further if you don't enjoy its scoreplay.

[Blinge]

I'm really starting to become intolerant about the lack of hit-box in old maniac shooters, especially Ketsui: I cannot rely on luck for dodging those dense and sparse patterns.

Regarding Ketsui, the disparities between Tiger and Panzer are annoying: one is too slow to dodge fast bullets unless you memorize the exact trajectory's speed of each one; and the other is really fast but its movements in focus shot are too fast for certain patterns (e.g. Stage2 boss' last phase; Stage3 boss' last phase).

At last, I really have to be clear about how much I loathe the directionals of the Sony controller and anyone who thoughts that having a stiff cross without diagonals is functional. Such things should be banned for the amount of mistreatment they cause to the thumbs and let everyone follow the same style of the X360's controller.

The hitbox is the top of the rotor iirc.

Bah, just pick one ship and get used to it. The difference in speed during lockshot is negligible apparently?

urghghgh PS dpad >> x360
The ps3 Dpad isn't that stiff, are you using official controllers?
I tend to just rest the fleshy part of my thumb right in the middle of the cross and kinda roll it in the intended direction rather than try to press specific directions: seems faster. Maybe that's something I find harder on my 360 pad.

[S_Fang]

I'm really starting to become intolerant about the lack of hit-box in old maniac shooters, especially Ketsui: I cannot rely on luck for dodging those dense and sparse patterns.

Regarding Ketsui, the disparities between Tiger and Panzer are annoying: one is too slow to dodge fast bullets unless you memorize the exact trajectory's speed of each one; and the other is really fast but its movements in focus shot are too fast for certain patterns (e.g. Stage2 boss' last phase; Stage3 boss' last phase).

At last, I really have to be clear about how much I loathe the directionals of the Sony controller and anyone who thoughts that having a stiff cross without diagonals is functional. Such things should be banned for the amount of mistreatment they cause to the thumbs and let everyone follow the same style of the X360's controller.

The hitbox is the top of the rotor iirc.

Bah, just pick one ship and get used to it. The difference in speed during lockshot is negligible apparently?

urghghgh PS dpad >> x360
The ps3 Dpad isn't that stiff, are you using official controllers?
I tend to just rest the fleshy part of my thumb right in the middle of the cross and kinda roll it in the intended direction rather than try to press specific directions: seems faster. Maybe that's something I find harder on my 360 pad.

I'm not bothering to memorize the exact size of the invisible collision box, but I guess I have to in order to make my life easier.

The difference in lockshot is about 1 second or 1.5 seconds, but my issue is the speed of the ships and how some parts of levels/bosses are almost impossible with a certain ship (Cindarella, how can I dodge that rotating crap at the last phase?). I find Panzer much more manageable for dodging.

I put my thumb on the directional, not at the center, so perhaps it hurts me after a while. I got real problems on Wiimote during Blaster Master and its overhead sections, I need to aim diagonally dang it.

[endoKarb]

It makes sense that it would though, given that it's the only way to have direct measurable competition.

Well, survival is a way to have direct measurable competition:

I made it to 1-4 you made it it 1-5, so you rank higher.
I made it to 2-1 you made it to 1-5, so I rank higher
We both made it to 2-1? In that case, score acts as a tiebreaker.

As far as I know, in Arcadia Magazine too a clear is given precedence over an high score without clearing.

[Jonst]

Bastard environmental hazards in shmups!

[Blinge]

I'm not bothering to memorize the exact size of the invisible collision box, but I guess I have to in order to make my life easier.

Looks visible enough to me. I can't say I've ever tried to memorise a hitbox in any game I've cleared, it's just something you develop a feel for. And yes, I've cleared Ketsui.

As for scoring and survival: At the highest skill level everybody will be 2-ALLing games or getting to similar stages, so it makes sense for score to be the first reference. A scoreboard's primary function is to demonstrate who is better. It's simpler, it works. Also the scoreboards do note stage reached so you can just look there for personal evaluation if it makes more sense to you.

[Stevens]

A 1cc is a significant milestone on the road to total mastery. You should be proud of it, and not feel compelled to take the game further if you don't enjoy its scoreplay.

Damn straight:D

My goal when playing any shooter is getting that 1 CC with as high a score I can possibly manage.

I never want it to not be fun and that is what happened with Ikaruga when I started. I was so obsessed with playing it perfectly - getting S++ on each stage that by the time I hit stage 4 I was burnt out on it.

It just wasn't fun anymore.

It hasn't happened since and I don't plan on putting myself in that position again.

Edit - This morning I had to gently remind myself to heed my own advice.

[LordHypnos]

OMG Under Defeat is so hard! and stages 1 and 2 are like an hour long each! How is that final stage 2 boss attack even dodgeable!? Even in the other parts of the stage, I just keep getting sniped when I'm trying to kill big enemies that are just as threatening because they take like a million hours to kill! So hard!

...I did make it to stage 3 once, though, so far, but it took like all of my resources.

[Jonst]

I'make no under defeat expert by any means but... You're using the rocket as your sub weapon right?
Also, before you get to the stage 2 boss, as you come up that side of the boat use a rocket and take out as many guns and turrets as possible bomb if you have to and as soon as you see the tower start shooting it and try and get another rocket ready. You can damage it heavily if not speed kill it altogether before it gets any attacks off or at least only a couple of easily dodged attacks.

Stage 3 is a fucker though...

[Blinge]

Personally I prefer the cannon subweapon, means I don't have to aim. And sometimes that rocket will miss even if your aim is perfect I swear..
I go all cannon on New Order mode, but have to switch to the rocket on arcade mode for S3/4 bosses and most of stage 5

Anyway Jonst gives some sound advice.

[LordHypnos]

I'make no under defeat expert by any means but... You're using the rocket as your sub weapon right?
Also, before you get to the stage 2 boss, as you come up that side of the boat use a rocket and take out as many guns and turrets as possible bomb if you have to and as soon as you see the tower start shooting it and try and get another rocket ready. You can damage it heavily if not speed kill it altogether before it gets any attacks off or at least only a couple of easily dodged attacks.

Stage 3 is a fucker though...

Yeah, doing pretty much all of these things, although I haven't figured out the best way to time the rockets, to get in the early damage on the final turret, though.

Personally I prefer the cannon subweapon, means I don't have to aim. And sometimes that rocket will miss even if your aim is perfect I swear..
I go all cannon on New Order mode, but have to switch to the rocket on arcade mode for S3/4 bosses and most of stage 5

Anyway Jonst gives some sound advice.

Might have to try this, just because I do keep missing rockets. I sort of wonder if the aim isn't better in the DC version, or something. In general the DC version felt a little easier when I played it.

Thanks for the advice though

[Squire Grooktook]

Bastard environmental hazards in shmups!

Environmental hazards are love.
Environmental hazards are life.

[Stevens]

How is that final stage 2 boss attack even dodgeable!?

Take a deep breath...

Don't think of the stage 2 boss as the tower on the battleship, think of it as the entire battleship.

When I play and the alarm sounds as far as I am concerned the boss fight is starting.

The battleship is broken up into 4 sections:

The starboard side
The back
Port side to the front
And finally the tower

The key (especially in the 360 version) is the tower is a LIVE target from the first time you pass it. You should be able to rocket it at least twice (once on the first pass and then on final approach) before its life bar is displayed. That with hammering the shit out of it with your gun and by the time its bar is displayed it should be either gone or almost gone.

Figure out the timing and you'll marvel at how easy it is!

If you would like me to go into more detail I would be happy to! Let me know and good luck!