XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Jademalo]

Huh, that's interesting.

Damnit why can't they just make it a flat option of RGB or YCbCr, lol.

[TheShadowRunner]

Yes, I know, but what I wanted to say was: If you want to switch between RGB and YCbCr output to test a scene you can just push the RGB button for RGB output and restart your TV for YCbCr output.

Oh yeah sure.

Huh, that's interesting.
Damnit why can't they just make it a flat option of RGB or YCbCr, lol.

Add a distinction between RGB full & RGB limited on top of that and we're good.
I actually requested this back in october, their reply:
"We examine this function by the next update.
Thank you!"

[FBX]

Did you ask them about profiles we could use with the microSD card? That's what most of us would really like.

[TheShadowRunner]

Did you ask them about profiles we could use with the microSD card? That's what most of us would really like.

No, I believe Fudoh asked them about the profiles, which would be more than welcome as well!
Changing H&V_SCALER all the time according to 240p/480i source is getting old.

[Fudoh]

profiles have been on the first request list years ago. Micomsoft themselves mentioned recently that they'll be included next.

For the YCbCr/RGB output issue: that's obviously a EDID problem. Doesn't the Mini support custom EDIDs on the MiniSD card ? One would need an EDID minder (Dr. HDMI), read a RGB only EDID from a PC monitor and have the Mini copy it to the card. I'm not sure, maybe a YCbCr-only EDID is possible as well. This would have be handcoded though as I can't think of any display that's only YCbCr-compatible.

[blizzz]

I'm not sure, maybe a YCbCr-only EDID is possible as well. This would have be handcoded though as I can't think of any display that's only YCbCr-compatible.

I don't think that's possible. There are two bits to signal RGB / YCbCr compatibility. The possible values are 00 = RGB 4:4:4; 01 = RGB 4:4:4 + YCrCb 4:4:4; 10 = RGB 4:4:4 + YCrCb 4:2:2; 11 = RGB 4:4:4 + YCrCb 4:4:4 + YCrCb 4:2:2 (Wikipedia).

[geekmiki]

Strange thing with my SFC+Framemeister today, the sync seems to be off and unless I go up to 28 I can't seem to stabilize the image.

Check the video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxn6KnRrAKw

I also have intermitent glitches with other games. Cables? SD2SNES? Framemeister? Or have I missed a setting?

[BuckoA51]

Mines the same (2-chip SFC) unless I use a clean sync cable.

[eightbitminiboss]

Strange thing with my SFC+Framemeister today, the sync seems to be off and unless I go up to 28 I can't seem to stabilize the image.

Check the video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxn6KnRrAKw

I also have intermitent glitches with other games. Cables? SD2SNES? Framemeister? Or have I missed a setting?

Is your SFC a 1CHIP? You may need a CSYNC cable if adjusting sync level isn't fixing it. It happens in the exact same fashion with The Firemen when I first saw this problem.

[Fudoh]

I guess the SD2SNES might be screwing with the signal impedance. I have a 1CHIP running on composite video and it has no problems whatsoever. Neither using a SNES Everdrive (but I don't have a SD2SNES).

Same happened to me once with a Mega Drive. Totally fine with standard carts but terrible sync dropouts with an Everdrive MD.

[geekmiki]

Thanks for your help!
The problem was solved by using a SCART->DIN adapter with a sync stripper.

[RGB32E]

Seems like it's either a display issue or a firmware issue. I'm still using v1.10 IIRC, and as mentioned earlier in the thread I get good color on my TV:

Hmm, that's interesting. I'd almost argue though that the tv may be helping the colours in that image to look right. The shrub looks exceedingly bright conpared to other peoples, even though you are getting a bit more contrast. It's also visible on Yoshi and the title, the greens are very bright.
Can you try that on YCbCr output to compare? I'm extremely curious.

Here you go! The results are similar. I don't recall the exact picture settings I used on my TV in terms of backlight and live color, but if they were the same, green is definitely brighter in RGB, but doesn't get clipped like on some other XRGB-mini user's TVs. If that's really the case, one can always reduce green in color settings. However, it seems the best way would be to take captures on my Startech card. Not really interested in bothering with that right now. I overall prefer RGB to component output, as the converse appears to be true - reds are brighter and blues are darker? Hence, bumping down green a couple of notches in RGB output might be a good compromise for some wishing to use RGB output, and not liking too much green on their display.

[ikari_01]

I guess the SD2SNES might be screwing with the signal impedance.

Uh, it cannot do that. No plug-in cartridge on any console can do that.
It cannot even mess with the sync (maybe you meant that...) because SNES video is completely autonomous. Of course I could make it toggle the overscan or interlace flag like crazy but what good would that do? It would break everywhere

No, the power supply is probably screwed (SNES internal power supply components included). I hear they omitted the big electrolytic cap on some consoles, that might be a cause too. It can't keep up with the higher power consumption of the sd2snes w.r.t. non-custom-chip original carts.

[Jademalo]

Seems like it's either a display issue or a firmware issue. I'm still using v1.10 IIRC, and as mentioned earlier in the thread I get good color on my TV:

Hmm, that's interesting. I'd almost argue though that the tv may be helping the colours in that image to look right. The shrub looks exceedingly bright conpared to other peoples, even though you are getting a bit more contrast. It's also visible on Yoshi and the title, the greens are very bright.
Can you try that on YCbCr output to compare? I'm extremely curious.

Here you go! The results are similar. I don't recall the exact picture settings I used on my TV in terms of backlight and live color, but if they were the same, green is definitely brighter in RGB, but doesn't get clipped like on some other XRGB-mini user's TVs. If that's really the case, one can always reduce green in color settings. However, it seems the best way would be to take captures on my Startech card. Not really interested in bothering with that right now. I overall prefer RGB to component output, as the converse appears to be true - reds are brighter and blues are darker? Hence, bumping down green a couple of notches in RGB output might be a good compromise for some wishing to use RGB output, and not liking too much green on their display.

Oh man, that is so interesting! It's almost exactly like I was expecting. Thank you for that!
The more examples I see, the more this is becoming consistent.

I will say that before I thought to try YCbCr output, I must have tried every imaginable setting in terms of RGB colour balance on both my monitor and the Mini. Unfortunately it's an issue that extends beyond that, and even if you get the greens right, since you're messing with the colour then whites, reds and blues all go totally out of whack. White is the main test imo, but its impossible to fix the greens without applying a red or blue tinge over everything.

When you say reds are brighter and blues are darker - Yes they are, but it's because in RGB output blues are brighter and reds are darker. With the amount of testing I've done, I can almost assure you that YCbCr is how all three colours are meant to be displayed.
Having said that, it doesn't matter if you prefer the other one, and it's all about preference after all =p
(But I do think it needs to be fixed regardless)

[blizzz]

I will try to make some recordings with the SC-500N1 capture card this weekend. I'm not sure though if the recordings will show the difference as clearly as my TV, since the capture card can only record in YUY2. But if RGB uses the wrong colors then it should also be wrong when converted to YUY2.

[Jademalo]

I will try to make some recordings with the SC-500N1 capture card this weekend. I'm not sure though if the recordings will show the difference as clearly as my TV, since the capture card can only record in YUY2. But if RGB uses the wrong colors then it should also be wrong when converted to YUY2.

You're correct. My capture card (Extremecap U3) has incorrect colours for RGB, this is how the whole thing started and I discovered the issue, since when I finally found a method to change the colour profile it was either bad or worse, not good and bad. The problem is that it's being encoded then decoded on the mini, so the actual RGB signal is incorrect. Anything after that is extremely consistent.
I'm planning on doing every possible imaginable conbination of settings and taking a series of consistent as possible images to show what different settings do, which I'll hopefully get to over the weekend. I've nearly managed to dial in the settings for both RGB and YPbPr inputs to look the same as my BVM, which I properly calibrated with colour profiles and test patterns etc.

[Grimakis]

Hi Guys,

Can someone give me accurate color settings for N64 over S-Video? I too realized that the greens were too bright in Animal Forest, and Mario 64. However switching to YCBCR has really washed out the other colors. I have compensated by decreasing brightness and gamma, which upping saturation a little bit. However, all colors seems rather dull and washed out now.

Of course, RGB output definitely wasn't accurate in the colors, they were way off. I've got my Samsung TV running in PC mode, so I can't really adjust anything except the backlight. Is there a good way to calibrate the Mini's color settings? Obviously I need to generate a test pattern or something, but doing so is difficult over S-Video.

[Jademalo]

Heh, I never thought to check composite and svideo out. I should do that.

What is your A/D set to? I started increasing mine and it made the colours lovely and vivid. I did have the dullness when everything was default so I know what you mean, but it's definitely possible to get them strong and make them pop

[FBX]

Thanks for your help!
The problem was solved by using a SCART->DIN adapter with a sync stripper.

I avoid strippers and adapters by simply using a JP-21 CSync RGB cable. No fuss, and perfect quality going straight into the supplied mini cable. Then again, you're on PAL format, so I don't know if JP-21 cables work on those consoles.

What is your A/D set to? I started increasing mine and it made the colours lovely and vivid. I did have the dullness when everything was default so I know what you mean, but it's definitely possible to get them strong and make them pop

How is it you're able to change A/D while on S-Video? Mine is disabled on that input.

[Jademalo]

What is your A/D set to? I started increasing mine and it made the colours lovely and vivid. I did have the dullness when everything was default so I know what you mean, but it's definitely possible to get them strong and make them pop

How is it you're able to change A/D while on S-Video? Mine is disabled on that input.

My bad, as I said I haven't tried anything on s-video. All I know is that RGB was a bit dull, but upping a/d slightly made it a lot more vibrant.
I have a feeling though that if there isn't an A/D option, the dullness might just be what it actually looks like. Maybe everyone is used to the neon green, lol.

[moonlightaffair]

I've been rocking my Framemeister with an RGB modded NES for a while with great results, but NOW, I'm ready to get an SNES setup going.

Any suggestions on what works, what doesn't?

Need to pick up an SNES Mini and get it modded for RGB with a euro scart cable hanging out of it, will any SNES mini do? Should I be looking for certain revisions?

Gotta get the latest 1.11 Framemeister firmware installed.

Retrogaming has 2 scart-2-din, one with sync-stripper, one without, should I get the one with the sync-stripper?:
http://www.retrogamingcables.com/micoms ... ipper.html

What Framemeister settings work good? Resolution, scanlines, etc?

I was eventually planning to pick up an SD2SNES flashcart too...

[moonlightaffair]

Framemeister still doesn't have profiles does it? So if I wanna switch from NES to SNES settings, I have to switch them all manually, then back, right?

[FBX]

Framemeister still doesn't have profiles does it? So if I wanna switch from NES to SNES settings, I have to switch them all manually, then back, right?

Correct. Supposedly profiles will be added next firmware update, although it's already been a year since the last one.

With regard to the SNES, are you NTSC or PAL-based? I always suggest going the JP-21 route for NTSC consoles. Those typically sport CSync and hook directly into the Framemeister's supplied adapter.

[Ninjatemper]

Strange thing with my SFC+Framemeister today, the sync seems to be off and unless I go up to 28 I can't seem to stabilize the image.

Check the video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxn6KnRrAKw

I also have intermitent glitches with other games. Cables? SD2SNES? Framemeister? Or have I missed a setting?

I have the exact same problem with some of my sega stuff. What's odd is that it was working fine for months and then all of the sudden, this issue arose. I was using a JVC X'eye. I tried a model 2 Genesis and a CDX and they both exhibited the exact same issue. I figured the cable went bad somehow. Having tried 3 different cables on all 3 of the mentioned consoles, the same issues remain so I have no clue what caused this. I tried hooking all 3 of them up to my Sony PVM and the sync issue is fixed, but the image is extremely dark and not playable. All manner of combinations of consoles and cables gives the same results on the Framemeister and the PVM. All of 3 consoles and all 3 cables worked perfectly on my framemeister and PVM previously. Composite output to both the Framemeister and the PVM look fine with all 3 consoles. Can't figure this one out.

I switched to a model 1 Genesis and the sync is fine on the Framemeister and the image is bright and perfect on my PVM. I'd like to go back to my X'eye for playing genesis and sega CD stuff, but it's not looking good.

[moonlightaffair]

Well, I haven't picked up the SNES yet, was wondering if there was a particular kind/revision I should get for best compatibility with Framemeister/SD2SNES. I was gonna pick up an NTSC SNES Mini.

I will mod it (or get it modded) and it will most likely have an RGB output that ends in a euro SCART. Which I could connect to this:
http://www.retrogamingcables.com/micoms ... ipper.html

^This is what I used for my NES>Framemeister and it works good. I was just wondering if the stripper/no-stripper made a difference.

If the SNES output ends in a japanes SCART, I can probably use the SCART>DIN that came with the Framemeister which I believe is a JP21>DIN.

Framemeister still doesn't have profiles does it? So if I wanna switch from NES to SNES settings, I have to switch them all manually, then back, right?

Correct. Supposedly profiles will be added next firmware update, although it's already been a year since the last one.

With regard to the SNES, are you NTSC or PAL-based? I always suggest going the JP-21 route for NTSC consoles. Those typically sport CSync and hook directly into the Framemeister's supplied adapter.

[Grimakis]

Well, I haven't picked up the SNES yet, was wondering if there was a particular kind/revision I should get for best compatibility with Framemeister/SD2SNES. I was gonna pick up an NTSC SNES Mini.

I will mod it (or get it modded) and it will most likely have an RGB output that ends in a euro SCART. Which I could connect to this:
http://www.retrogamingcables.com/micoms ... ipper.html

^This is what I used for my NES>Framemeister and it works good. I was just wondering if the stripper/no-stripper made a difference.

If the SNES output ends in a japanes SCART, I can probably use the SCART>DIN that came with the Framemeister which I believe is a JP21>DIN.

Framemeister still doesn't have profiles does it? So if I wanna switch from NES to SNES settings, I have to switch them all manually, then back, right?

Correct. Supposedly profiles will be added next firmware update, although it's already been a year since the last one.

With regard to the SNES, are you NTSC or PAL-based? I always suggest going the JP-21 route for NTSC consoles. Those typically sport CSync and hook directly into the Framemeister's supplied adapter.

I don't really know much about modding the SNES mini, but I settled on SCART. The reason being is that SCART switches are more common. You should definitely choose either SCART or JP-2!, not both. If you have both, you need to use two MiniDIN cables, and you wont be able to hook them up to a switch. If you are opposed to a SCART switch, I have seen someone on Youtube who used SCART to BNC breakout cables, and fed them into a BNC switching matrix. He then ran either a BNC to MiniDIN or SCART, to use with the Framemeister.

I'm using regular SNES with a RGB Scart cable wired for Composite Sync. If your SNES is able to output Composite Sync after the mod, you don't need the sync stripper. If you are trying to use composite video as sync, then you need the sync stripped.

I guess my advice would be "mod first, get cable second"

http://retrorgb.com/snescsync.html

The above link explains how to mod for Composite Sync on SNES Mini. I personally am very happy with the SNES 1's output, but it looks like the Mini might give slightly better color.

[TheShadowRunner]

I'm using regular SNES with a RGB Scart cable wired for Composite Sync. If your SNES is able to output Composite Sync after the mod, you don't need the sync stripper. If you are trying to use composite video as sync, then you need the sync stripped.

I guess my advice would be "mod first, get cable second"

http://retrorgb.com/snescsync.html

The above link explains how to mod for Composite Sync on SNES Mini. I personally am very happy with the SNES 1's output, but it looks like the Mini might give slightly better color.

Hmm I have 3 SFCs, all 1st gen models: 1x2chip, 1x1CHIP1, 1x1CHIP3. All of them work perfectly with the Mini using composite video, no sync stripper, and the default value of 9 for Sync on the Mini.
Using the offical SHVC-010 cable and Mini fw 1.11 (latest).
I believe the SFC is one of those systems that play along just fine with the Mini with no tweaks needed whatsoever, contrary to the MDrive..

[blizzz]

I did a quick test to compare RGB and YCbCr output on the Mini. The RGB output looks brighter than my TV, so this is not a perfect representation of what the Mini will look like for you. My capture card (SC-500N1) cannot capture RGB nor YCbCr 4:4:4 without downsampling to YUY2 4:2:2, so this is not 100% what the Mini outputs.

Emulated screenshot


RGB output
shrub_test_rgb.png

YCbCR output
shrub_test_ycbcr.png

ScreenshotComparison.com

Color pattern: RGB, YCbCr

From what I can see the YCbCr output is very close to the emulated picture, but the bright greens appear darker. The RGB output has correct bright green on the shrub, but the other darker green shades also appear too intense. Reds in RGB output are a bit darker than in YCbCr output mode. I want to stress again that I can see the middle color of the shrub on my TV in RGB output, so there is obviously different processing done. But I assume that the RGB screenshot shows the same problem with my capture card that some people have on their TVs.

Overall the YCbCr output looks more pleasant.

Edit: I just noticed that the status window says that the Mini outputs at 60.00Hz. It actually outputs 60.10Hz according to my capture card.

[Grimakis]

I'm using regular SNES with a RGB Scart cable wired for Composite Sync. If your SNES is able to output Composite Sync after the mod, you don't need the sync stripper. If you are trying to use composite video as sync, then you need the sync stripped.

I guess my advice would be "mod first, get cable second"

http://retrorgb.com/snescsync.html

The above link explains how to mod for Composite Sync on SNES Mini. I personally am very happy with the SNES 1's output, but it looks like the Mini might give slightly better color.

Hmm I have 3 SFCs, all 1st gen models: 1x2chip, 1x1CHIP1, 1x1CHIP3. All of them work perfectly with the Mini using composite video, no sync stripper, and the default value of 9 for Sync on the Mini.
Using the offical SHVC-010 cable and Mini fw 1.11 (latest).
I believe the SFC is one of those systems that play along just fine with the Mini with no tweaks needed whatsoever, contrary to the MDrive..

My bad. You're right, composite video as sync will work on the Mini. My understanding is that it can introduce some artifacts though, due to the composite video still being part of the video.

I haven't tried, so I am by no means an expert.

[blizzz]

My understanding is that it can introduce some artifacts though, due to the composite video still being part of the video.

If the cable is well made there won't be any artifacts.