SGDQ '15 Shmup exhibition possibility

[Aquas]

Hey all just wanted to field the possibility of Shmup exhibitions at the upcoming SGDQ.

Basically, we can submit a shmup in exhibition form since they aren't speed games (typically). Just like we would a speedrun on their submission form. But I've been advised if we do, the video example shows that we play solidly and can comment it effectively.
Submission deadline Apr. 2nd

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/pos ... sions.html - Details
https://gamesdonequick.com/submission/create - Submission form
-if you do submit something, make it a short game, 30 min tops probably preferable.

I am planning on submitting an exhibition on something and I'm also going to SGDQ (I live near Minneapolis, MN where it is being held this year)

However, it would be nice if I didn't have to comment it all by myself, so,
any shmup heads who would want to help commentate an exhibition interested in going / submitting a run? Now's your chance.

I think it'd be nice if we could help commentate each others runs in the event we had exhibition type runs accepted.
Also, NOTHING is guaranteed here until the proposed run is accepted.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Speeding through a shmup is... doable. But basically you do whatever you want during stages so long as you have no unplanned deaths, and then bombing the fuck out of all bosses (midbosses are irrelevant unless they pause scrolling, which they don't in Futari) to reduce the time spent during bosses, including suiciding to regain bombs. It's a bit cheesy, and doesn't sound too interesting to watch...

A scoredemo would be more interesting for us, but it'd really be an experiment to see how a speedrun community reacts to a non-speed exhibition (scoring well doesn't necessarily mean a much different clear time than a bad run in a shmup that doesn't have much milking).

[Shepardus]

I'm not familiar with the rules behind GDQ, are exhibitions a different category or something compared to regular speedruns? Is that what Tetris TGM was entered as at AGDQ 2015?

I'd be happy to see some high-level scoreplay at SGDQ, as long as someone is confident that they can pull off a good run with reasonable consistency and if there's good commentary (for what it's worth, this goes for other speedruns too). Even if it's not really a "speedrun," it'd be a nice little change in pace from the constant stream of speedruns (like the Tetris exhibition, even though those are also generally played for speed). I expect most people interested in GDQ would also be able to appreciate a good scoreplay as long as the commentary doesn't leave them lost, since like speedruns they're heavily reliant on optimization and taking advantage of neat, often obscure, tricks. And even if people don't fully understand the scoring system they can still be impressed by the dodging if the bullets are dense enough.

[Blackbird]

There are a few shmups/shmup hybrids that can be speedrun in the traditional sense - Velocity 2X is a pretty good example of this. Something to consider.

A Mushi Futari superplay would be really exciting to watch in an exhibition - the game's visually attractive and impressive looking, so even casual observers can still appreciate it even if they might not fully grasp the mechanics. I can't be at SGDQ myself, but I could certainly call in via voice chat if it would be helpful. I'm not specifically an expert on Mushi Futari scoring techniques though.

I touched on this in an earlier topic, but I think one or two scoreplay exhibitions would be a good addition to the GDQ roster because it would be a nice intermission between speedruns. The Tetris demo at the last AGDQ was certainly well received.

[Squire Grooktook]

It would have to be scoreplay or bust, because as echoed speed running is not interesting except for a handful of shmups.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

There's no way I'd be able to go to a GDQ anytime soon.

On the subject of speedrunnable STGs

Mamoru-kun is speedrunnable. (and is similar to Pocky and Rocky which was done in a previous GDQ).

The 4 stages you would do are Castle(Right, Right, Right), Entrance of Netherworld(North paths only), Aerial Garden, and Home of Cherry Blossom. Castle would need to be first so it doesn't get too hard, but the others should be fine in any order. You wouldn't do Southern Temple because that stage is a 2+ minute autoscroller. I'm not sure which path is fastest on Aerial Garden or Home of Cherry Blossoms. You'd pretty much just need to figure out fast boss strats whether that be cursing the boss or cursing yourself(though this does power you down after) depending on which character you were using. If you're fast enough, you won't need to do any of the boss missions to have enough time to get to the true boss.

It's pretty much how I cheesed most of the 1cc trophies on the game as only 2 of the characters have I done all missions on so far(though it'll be all of them once I learn score routes for them)

[LordHypnos]

I'd offer to do commentary, since I am also near Minneapolis, but I'd be useless at Futari commentary, I know almost nothing about the game.
Unfortunately, I don't think I'd have nearly the consistency at Mars Matrix to attempt that. Would take too many restarts. Probably would be a pretty good game to do an exhibition of, however, since it's scary looking (especially some of the boss patterns) and scoring is fairly easy to understand.
Also not sure if I want to tie myself down to something like that, schedulewise...

As far as speedrunning STGs goes, I think all of the Fantasy Zone games are speedrunnable. I don't know how interesting they actually are to speedrun, though. Maybe some other arena shmups would be too. Defender or Robotron, perhaps?

[Aquas]

^

Makes some good points.

And yeah-- I'm prodding about this pretty last minute as far as getting runs in goes at least.

There's a lot of cool ways to exhibition STGs it seems and it depends on the game of course. So I've heard some good ideas for games to show like Raiden Fighters Jet because the commentary can cover all the scoring tricks of that game -- just like the tricks that go into speedruns, to make the analogy.

But compared to Mushi Futari 1.5 Original the trick is just keeping all your lives and being bold to go for Green Auras and proper kills that match the counter color. Plays out a bit differently in Originals 1.5's case, but man do I love it.

[ciox]

Armed Police Unit Gallop is likely the best speedrunnable shmup, fast kills on bosses come naturally and it's probably the only one where you can significantly speed up stages, probably way hard to find a player though.

[Squire Grooktook]

There's a lot of cool ways to exhibition STGs it seems and it depends on the game of course. So I've heard some good ideas for games to show like Raiden Fighters Jet because the commentary can cover all the scoring tricks of that game -- just like the tricks that go into speedruns, to make the analogy.

Duuuuuuuuude

Battle Garegga

You could do technical explanations for everything.

[BulletMagnet]

Hmm...would Kingdom Grand Prix fit the bill?

[Blinge]

High level scoreplay is definitely what we should be thinking about here, not making some pretense that shmups can be speedran.
A Yagawa game seems perfect.

If it's in their exhibition slot it doesn't have to be a speedrun, right? Just wanted to stress this point.
Also will it be on a side stream or part of the main event?

[NTSC-J]

I bet they'd go for Ikaruga. As speedrun friendly as shooters get (expect for that last part) and it's one they can all look at each other and nod approvingly because it's "one of the best shooters of all time" and they all recognize this.

[Obscura]

There's a lot of cool ways to exhibition STGs it seems and it depends on the game of course. So I've heard some good ideas for games to show like Raiden Fighters Jet because the commentary can cover all the scoring tricks of that game -- just like the tricks that go into speedruns, to make the analogy.

Duuuuuuuuude

Battle Garegga

You could do technical explanations for everything.

High level scoreplay is definitely what we should be thinking about here, not making some pretense that shmups can be speedran.
A Yagawa game seems perfect.

I suggested this in IRC last night, but Aquas made the good point that these are stressful as hell to play in that kind of setting,with how much you're down to your last life.

I think RFJ or Raiden DX Alpha Course are probably the ideal games for this... if you can find the right people for commentary. They're less popular than Futari, though, which makes that a bit trickier. Like I said last night, I think Maniac makes for a better demo than original, though -- the big cash-ins give more "moments" for a commentator to talk about.

[Squire Grooktook]

How about a balance of three or more games, to show how diverse the genre can be and capture a little bit of everything that everyone should see?

Something Cave-ish, to show some flashy bullet dodging mania and dare devil stunts.
Ikaruga, for something a little middle of the road and widely recognized while still very good and deep.
Battle Garegga, for something absurdly technical that detail people who like picking games apart can get super hyped for.

I think people should stay away from oldschool shmups though. As much as I like them, you need something for this setting that people can look at and immediately say "Now that's skillfull/hype!". Oldschool/traditional stuff might be easier/less intimidating for newcomers to get into, but that's not who you're really appealing to here IMO.

I suggested this in IRC last night, but Aquas made the good point that these are stressful as hell to play in that kind of setting,with how much you're down to your last life.

Good point, though that could make it even more hype. Doubt we'd have anyone consistent enough though.

[Icarus]

How about a balance of three or more games, to show how diverse the genre can be and capture a little bit of everything that everyone should see?
*suggests Ikaruga, Garegga and something Cave-ish*

Three modern bullet hells do not make for diversity.

Battle Garegga, for something absurdly technical that detail people who like picking games apart can get super hyped for.

No.

[Obscura]

I think people should stay away from oldschool shmups though. As much as I like them, you need something for this setting that people can look at and immediately say "Now that's skillfull/hype!". Oldschool/traditional stuff might be easier/less intimidating for newcomers to get into, but that's not who you're really appealing to here IMO.

Have you ever watched an RFJ run?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ0JG3maP6E

I don't even like the game (stage 1 X medals 2hard4me), and I think that shit is hype to watch.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think people should stay away from oldschool shmups though. As much as I like them, you need something for this setting that people can look at and immediately say "Now that's skillfull/hype!". Oldschool/traditional stuff might be easier/less intimidating for newcomers to get into, but that's not who you're really appealing to here IMO.

Have you ever watched an RFJ run?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ0JG3maP6E

I don't even like the game (stage 1 X medals 2hard4me), and I think that shit is hype to watch.

I actually would count that game as pretty modern, at least it has elements of bullet hell even if it's not "really" a bullet hell game (same as Garegga). When I say oldschool, I'm more thinking of stuff like R-Type or Gradius II that have little or no obvious scoring systems to speak of besides milk a few bosses, and nothing thats really equivalent to the competitive aspect of speed running. Hard to imagine people who like watching all those absurdly technical speed run tricks that save a few milliseconds getting interested in the genre from something like that, especially since many such games fall under the "harder then they look" umbrella rather then vice versa.

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe the speed run crowd would be more interested in a basic 1cc type game. Doesn't seem likely to me though.

Three modern bullet hells do not make for diversity.

IMO the in depth scoring systems and technical nature of that sub-genre is perfectly suited to this kind of exhibition. Not to mention, I do believe there is enough variety within the sub-genre, and within the three games I mentioned to showcase the genre well. Cave bullet patterns aren't even visually comparable to the environmental hazards and gimmicky weapon systems in a Treasure shooter, and even beyond the whole rank thing, Garrega arguably isn't even a bullet hell game, depending on your definition.

Now if someone suggested three Cave games, that wouldn't be very varied for sure, ha ha.

[Erppo]

Please no milking games.

[endoKarb]

Psikyo games would basically be perfect for this.
Simple, fast, exciting, easy to understand. Both loops can be done in less than 30 min.
It would takes someone really skilled behind the controls tho.

[NTSC-J]

Gus should do Futari Ultra.

[beatsgo]

There's a lot of cool ways to exhibition STGs it seems and it depends on the game of course. So I've heard some good ideas for games to show like Raiden Fighters Jet because the commentary can cover all the scoring tricks of that game -- just like the tricks that go into speedruns, to make the analogy.

Duuuuuuuuude

Battle Garegga

You could do technical explanations for everything.

High level scoreplay is definitely what we should be thinking about here, not making some pretense that shmups can be speedran.
A Yagawa game seems perfect.

I suggested this in IRC last night, but Aquas made the good point that these are stressful as hell to play in that kind of setting,with how much you're down to your last life.

I think RFJ or Raiden DX Alpha Course are probably the ideal games for this... if you can find the right people for commentary. They're less popular than Futari, though, which makes that a bit trickier. Like I said last night, I think Maniac makes for a better demo than original, though -- the big cash-ins give more "moments" for a commentator to talk about.

I concur with this statement. We need a "median" shmup that is somewhat accessible to a new player, but has that sort of mystic of being a high-level shmup. I wouldn't mind showcasing local good players, but you have to progressively up the level slowly annually to really attract people into it. Then we can "go full shmup".

[emphatic]

You could do an Out Zone speed run for sure.

[Blackbird]

Doing more than one game in the exhibition is not possible. Time slots in GDQ are very short and must be strictly adhered to in order to keep the event on schedule. We can expect to have an hour at most to demonstrate the game, which also has to include setup time. If we consider that a full scoring run would be between 30-40 minutes and also allow time for resets, that leaves us just enough time to do one game.

Raiden Fighters Jet is really interesting, but in my experience, the RF series is reset city. I don't think resetting over and over to get the right starting setup would create a good impression in a live marathon.

I don't think Garegga would make for a good demo game either, because there are significant portions of the game where you are just sitting there doing very little and milking bosses. While there are a lot of cool technical tricks to explain, there's also a lot of boring downtime.

[Erppo]

Raiden Fighters Jet is really interesting, but in my experience, the RF series is reset city. I don't think resetting over and over to get the right starting setup would create a good impression in a live marathon.

Someone who can't even do the first stage well should have no business in the main event in the first place.

[Aquas]

High level scoreplay is definitely what we should be thinking about here, not making some pretense that shmups can be speedran.
A Yagawa game seems perfect.

If it's in their exhibition slot it doesn't have to be a speedrun, right? Just wanted to stress this point.
Also will it be on a side stream or part of the main event?

Part of the main event. Yes, it doesn't have to be a speed run if it's submitted as exhibition.

Doing more than one game in the exhibition is not possible. Time slots in GDQ are very short and must be strictly adhered to in order to keep the event on schedule. We can expect to have an hour at most to demonstrate the game, which also has to include setup time. If we consider that a full scoring run would be between 30-40 minutes and also allow time for resets, that leaves us just enough time to do one game.

Raiden Fighters Jet is really interesting, but in my experience, the RF series is reset city. I don't think resetting over and over to get the right starting setup would create a good impression in a live marathon.

I don't think Garegga would make for a good demo game either, because there are significant portions of the game where you are just sitting there doing very little and milking bosses. While there are a lot of cool technical tricks to explain, there's also a lot of boring downtime.

It is possible we could have more than one game for the exhibition, you never know. Granted they are 20 minute affairs. An hour long exhibition on ONE game won't fly, I'm pretty sure. Not doing a panel here, just showing that these games can be great experiences with skill in mind. I think I saw ONE reset at all of the GDQ's -- it's simply not very cool, regardless, shouldnt need to reset RFJ stage 1, and you can still finish the medal building in the next stage if you're real crummy. :3

[Vexorg]

Out of the suggestions I've seen, I think Ikaruga and RFJ are probably the most likely candidates. Radiant Silvergun can be speedrun to some extent (boss quick kills), but it might be a little obscure for the purpose.

[Immryr]

High level scoreplay is definitely what we should be thinking about here, not making some pretense that shmups can be speedran.
A Yagawa game seems perfect.

If it's in their exhibition slot it doesn't have to be a speedrun, right? Just wanted to stress this point.
Also will it be on a side stream or part of the main event?

just quoting this as i think it's spot on. people need to get this idea that the exhibition would need to be a speed run out of their heads. speed running a shmup is not a thing. no one does that, no one would want to see it. high level play would be much better / more appropriate.

[beatsgo]

Doing more than one game in the exhibition is not possible. Time slots in GDQ are very short and must be strictly adhered to in order to keep the event on schedule. We can expect to have an hour at most to demonstrate the game, which also has to include setup time. If we consider that a full scoring run would be between 30-40 minutes and also allow time for resets, that leaves us just enough time to do one game.

Raiden Fighters Jet is really interesting, but in my experience, the RF series is reset city. I don't think resetting over and over to get the right starting setup would create a good impression in a live marathon.

I don't think Garegga would make for a good demo game either, because there are significant portions of the game where you are just sitting there doing very little and milking bosses. While there are a lot of cool technical tricks to explain, there's also a lot of boring downtime.

It is possible we could have more than one game for the exhibition, you never know. Granted they are 20 minute affairs. An hour long exhibition on ONE game won't fly, I'm pretty sure. Not doing a panel here, just showing that these games can be great experiences with skill in mind. I think I saw ONE reset at all of the GDQ's -- it's simply not very cool, regardless, shouldnt need to reset RFJ stage 1, and you can still finish the medal building in the next stage if you're real crummy. :3

That's exactly what I was thinking, players who are scrubs and can pass even if their scores suck. I see 3 routes how the shmups segment will run: 1CCing them, Hi-Scoring them, or both.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't think Garegga would make for a good demo game either, because there are significant portions of the game where you are just sitting there doing very little and milking bosses. While there are a lot of cool technical tricks to explain, there's also a lot of boring downtime.

Completely forgot about this. I agree, I wouldn't open with Garegga then.

I concur with this statement. We need a "median" shmup that is somewhat accessible to a new player, but has that sort of mystic of being a high-level shmup. I wouldn't mind showcasing local good players, but you have to progressively up the level slowly annually to really attract people into it. Then we can "go full shmup".

I kinda agree with this. To be honest, I'd be more interested in seeing Raiden Fighters myself, but kicking things off with Ikaruga might be wiser.