XRGB-mini Framemeister

[austin532]

Still no luck with it displaying correctly. When I set the TV to Auto, every system is displayed correctly. Even the Wii U which only outputs Limited RGB. However even with the TV set to Auto I still get black crush with the mini. I am a bit confused as to why the TV won't recognize it correctly. If I am seeing black crush then it leads me to believe that the TV thinks the incoming signal is Limited and adjusts itself to that signal. Increasing the mini's brightness to about 39 tends to fix this and side by side they look the same but I'm not sure if this is recommended.

I know setting everything to Full RGB is the way to go however since I have a mixed setup I have to choose Auto.

[BuckoA51]

Do you think many modern games are actually created with "Full range" RGB? I thought most people gamed on TVs these days?

So let me see if I have this straight. You basically choose one or the other and set all your gear to output to that, and calibrate accordingly.

Given that converting from limited to full range is usually better than going the other way, full range is recommended?

[austin532]

Aren't all games created with Full Range RGB?

I can't choose one or the other. In my setup I have a US Gamecube (can not output RGB), a PS2 (which can output RGB but I currently have it outputting Component) Wii U (can not output Full Range RGB), the Mini (which can not output a proper Limited Range RGB). If I choose one method I will either get black crush or a washed out image.

Am I missing something completely obvious? If so please let me know.

[TheShadowRunner]

Still no luck with it displaying correctly. When I set the TV to Auto, every system is displayed correctly. Even the Wii U which only outputs Limited RGB. However even with the TV set to Auto I still get black crush with the mini. I am a bit confused as to why the TV won't recognize it correctly. If I am seeing black crush then it leads me to believe that the TV thinks the incoming signal is Limited and adjusts itself to that signal. Increasing the mini's brightness to about 39 tends to fix this and side by side they look the same but I'm not sure if this is recommended.

I know setting everything to Full RGB is the way to go however since I have a mixed setup I have to choose Auto.

Yes this is why I requested a 'discrete' setting for Color Output back in october: [RGB Full / RGB limited / YCbCR ].
"RGB" label is too vague and the "Auto" setting behaves in stranges ways (the failsafe theory which seems to be spot on).

Like you I believe the Mini currently always outputs RGB Full whenever it outputs RGB.
My TV does not have a Color Space setting so I'm screwed as long as Micom doesn't implement RGB limited.
What I don't get in your case is that your TV does have a Color Space setting, so can't you just set the setting to Full for the Mini input?
Don't tell me the Color Space setting on your TV is system-wide and not remembered PER input??

There is no problem using RGB limited if both source and receiver match. Don't forget the signal on consoles goes through a TV encoder in all cases (it's not like the signal isn't altered through the whole chain anyway).

Yes raising the brightness to compensate for the color space mismatch is NOT good at all, this will screw up the levels and should be avoided at all costs.

Waiting on Micomsoft...

[Fudoh]

However even with the TV set to Auto I still get black crush with the mini.

On Sonys the AUTO setting isn't realiable. Had nothing but trouble with it for years.

[FBX]

Yes this is why I requested a 'discrete' setting for Color Output back in october: [RGB Full / RGB limited / YCbCR ].
"RGB" label is too vague and the "Auto" setting behaves in stranges ways (the failsafe theory which seems to be spot on).

Speaking of which, I spoke to an electronics engineer and he informed me that the Framemeister's failsafe function is backwards. According to the HDMI standard, RGB is supposed to be the failsafe with YCbCr meant to only be optionally supported. Since it costs no less than $10,000 to get an official HDMI license, the theory is Micomsoft went 'under the table' and avoided getting licensed. Had they gotten a license, the Framemeister would not have passed the HDMI standards tests as it is.

[TheShadowRunner]

On Sonys the AUTO setting isn't realiable. Had nothing but trouble with it for years.

It seems it's reliable for everything but the Mini XD

Speaking of which, I spoke to an electronics engineer and he informed me that the Framemeister's failsafe function is backwards. According to the HDMI standard, RGB is supposed to be the failsafe with YCbCr meant to only be optionally supported. Since it costs no less than $10,000 to get an official HDMI license, the theory is Micomsoft went 'under the table' and avoided getting licensed. Had they gotten a license, the Framemeister would not have passed the HDMI standards tests as it is.

Interesting, I always thought it made sense for YCbCr to be failsafe for HDTVs since it's the format most commonly used for broadcast and ALL HDTVs support YCbCr / RGB limited ever since they came out..

[austin532]

What I don't get in your case is that your TV does have a Color Space setting, so can't you just set the setting to Full for the Mini input?
Don't tell me the Color Space setting on your TV is system-wide and not remembered PER input??

I thought I mentioned this before but I will mention it again. I have everything hooked up to an AVR so the TV only detects it as one input.

[Fudoh]

It seems it's reliable for everything but the Mini XD

not for me. I have enough video processors where I can manually set the RGB range and usually the TV doesn't follow or get it right when switching inputs.

[Fudoh]

I thought I mentioned this before but I will mention it again. I have everything hooked up to an AVR so the TV only detects it as one input.

but you at least tried a direct connection as well to make sure it's not your AVR's fault ?

[FBX]

On Sonys the AUTO setting isn't realiable. Had nothing but trouble with it for years.

It seems it's reliable for everything but the Mini XD

Speaking of which, I spoke to an electronics engineer and he informed me that the Framemeister's failsafe function is backwards. According to the HDMI standard, RGB is supposed to be the failsafe with YCbCr meant to only be optionally supported. Since it costs no less than $10,000 to get an official HDMI license, the theory is Micomsoft went 'under the table' and avoided getting licensed. Had they gotten a license, the Framemeister would not have passed the HDMI standards tests as it is.

Interesting, I always thought it made sense for YCbCr to be failsafe for HDTVs since it's the format most commonly used for broadcast and ALL HDTVs support YCbCr / RGB limited ever since they came out..

That's what I thought too (and probably Micomsoft thought also), but according to the HDMI standards & requirements, RGB is the default and YCbCr is the poll-check option.

Here's the official document on it:

[Fudoh]

If RGB444 wasn't the default, HDMI wouldn't be 100% compatible to DVI (minus HDCP of course).

But this aside, the document says nothing about RGB ranges. Every RGB capable DVI display can show limited range RGB content, it just can't show it right (without adjusting the settings).

[austin532]

I thought I mentioned this before but I will mention it again. I have everything hooked up to an AVR so the TV only detects it as one input.

but you at least tried a direct connection as well to make sure it's not your AVR's fault ?

The AVR does a direct passthrough with HDMI but I went ahead and tested it anyway just to be 100% sure and still no luck. I'm guessing my only other option at this point is to separate the limited and full range systems or just say the hell with the Wii U?

[marqs]

I thought I mentioned this before but I will mention it again. I have everything hooked up to an AVR so the TV only detects it as one input.

but you at least tried a direct connection as well to make sure it's not your AVR's fault ?

The AVR does a direct passthrough with HDMI but I went ahead and tested it anyway just to be 100% sure and still no luck. I'm guessing my only other option at this point is to separate the limited and full range systems or just say the hell with the Wii U?

Is it even possible to implement a full-fledged passthrough with HDMI without decoding the signals in the middle, i.e. so that the source sees the end-point sink and not the switch/processor in between? At least Framemeister's 'direct' passthrough seems to replace original infoframe content with its own, so e.g. any indications on the used RGB quantization range the source may supply are lost.

[iast]

I'm having an issue with sync on a Taito F3 board (Dungeon Magic). Picture is rather jumpy when I'm playing through the XRGB, but if I'm playing on my standard CRT TV over composite/s-video (supergun connected directly to TV), picture syncs fine. Usually when it's a board with peculiar sync this issue is the other way around. Any suggestions?

[Grimakis]

Is there any way to get Sonic 2s Co-op mode to work with the Framemeister? Afaik, it switches to 480i and the Framemeister can't handle whatever is going on with this signal.

For reference I am using an American Model 2 Genesis, connected via RGB Scart. It's one of the cables with the "boosted sync". I've heard of this issue before. I have no issues with 1p mode.

[Fudoh]

Is there any way to get Sonic 2s Co-op mode to work with the Framemeister?

no.

@iast: I think the F3 is reported to be currently incompatible with the Mini.

[iast]

@iast: I think the F3 is reported to be currently incompatible with the Mini.

Yeah, I'm seeing similar things reading elsewhere. That's a shame.

Apparently the XRGB-3 works with F3 sync. Guess it's just hoping that they patch the Mini for it at some point.

[Grimakis]

Is there any way to get Sonic 2s Co-op mode to work with the Framemeister?

no.

Do you happen to know why the Framemeister can't handle it? What makes the Genesis 480i signal different than others?

Regards,
george

[Jademalo]

I posted this in another thread, thought i may as well post it in here too.

Any chance anyone has any idea how to solve this weird issue I'm having?

http://i.imgur.com/yqLH0G2.png - Component
http://i.imgur.com/ZXgZqpn.png - RGB

http://imgur.com/yqLH0G2,ZXgZqpn#0 - A thing to switch between the two easily

Ignore the incorrect scaling on the rgb image, that was just me forgetting to change it for the image. This happens for every source no matter the scaling settings, so it's not a relevant issue.
Also for the purposes of this test I used my Component to RGB transcoder, but this same issue happens regardless of the source I use, and is the same across every console I've tried it with. I also have my BVM configured so that both inputs look absolutely identical - and I mean, Identical. This isn't a source issue at all.

Anyway! I've got a bit of a weird problem with RGB colour. As you can clearly see, component is gorgeous, warm, vibrant and pretty much identical to what I see on my BVM. It really is top notch. However, RGB is extremely... Dull. Although, it's not a brightness or contrast issue. I thought it was at first and spent a while messing with them, but they didn't fix anything. It seems like the problem is actually a greeny blue hue over the entire image. I tried messing with the RGB settings, but it only made the whites extremely red, or made everything even more dull. I don't have a reliable way of capturing it, but another good example was the grass outside Peach's castle in SM64. On my BVM, it's green, the sand is orange, and the walls are grey. On the Mini, the grass is highliter neon green, the sand is blueish, and the walls are red. It's visible pretty well if you look at the top corner of the sunshine image - the grass is neon on the RGB one and correct on the Component one.

Any ideas? It's been puzzling me for a couple of days, and I can't seem to make it look right.
Thanks!

Edit: Just tried the Wii scart cable direct into the mini, same issue. So it's got absolutely nothing to do with my setup, and it's something to do with the Mini.

[CkRtech]

Those of you that use component on the mini - Could you indicate your level of satisfaction with it? I have had my mini for a few years now, and I never bought the component cable adapter for the rear input. I have just run component devices (PS2, Xbox, GameCube) directly to my Panasonic plasma.

Part of me hasn't done it due to the amount of head-scratching I have seen in this thread regarding component input on the mini and getting things to look just right (black level, colors, etc).

[Fudoh]

For 480p sources I don't think it's worth it. And for 480i the system in question usually will output RGBs just as fine.

You should do a test on your display and check if YPbPr 480p looks identical to HDMI 480p (maybe with a 360 if you got one). There's a good chance that HDMI processing is better and in this case you're better off with a component to HDMI converter instead of running your 480p sources through the Mini.

[pyrotek85]

I think component looks perfectly acceptable to me personally, though in my case I dont have a choice since I'm using a PC monitor, which doesn't have component inputs. I use it with GameCube, Xbox, and usually PS2 as well. The Wii looked horrid, though I think that's just because it has poor video output in general.

[Fudoh]

Sure, it's absolutely acceptable - as you say. I just don't see too much of a benefit above a direct connection to a TV (or through a cheap component to HDMI converter) - if that's an option. And depending on the TV the scaling might even look better on when it's done by the TV set.

[CkRtech]

Appreciate the feedback, as always.

[pyrotek85]

Sure, it's absolutely acceptable - as you say. I just don't see too much of a benefit above a direct connection to a TV (or through a cheap component to HDMI converter) - if that's an option. And depending on the TV the scaling might even look better on when it's done by the TV set.

Any recommendations for a good component to HDMI converter? I'm open to trying something else if its not too expensive.

[Fudoh]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003VJ9RP6

[austin532]

Sure, it's absolutely acceptable - as you say. I just don't see too much of a benefit above a direct connection to a TV (or through a cheap component to HDMI converter) - if that's an option. And depending on the TV the scaling might even look better on when it's done by the TV set.

I agree. If your TV is relatively new from the past 2-3 years then it will almost guaranteed look better plugging it in directly to the TV. 480i/p will look much better and the transitions will be instantaneous without losing the signal unlike the Mini. The only downside is you lose all of your options including the major one, scanlines.

I suppose you could always buy the SLG HD to generate scanlines with Component though I have no experience using it (yet).

[Jademalo]

Those of you that use component on the mini - Could you indicate your level of satisfaction with it? I have had my mini for a few years now, and I never bought the component cable adapter for the rear input. I have just run component devices (PS2, Xbox, GameCube) directly to my Panasonic plasma.

Part of me hasn't done it due to the amount of head-scratching I have seen in this thread regarding component input on the mini and getting things to look just right (black level, colors, etc).

As my post above yours indicates, I'm extremely happy with component inputs on the Mini, and it's the RGB I'm having trouble with, lol.

[Fudoh]

480i/p will look much better and the transitions will be instantaneous without losing the signal unlike the Mini.

480p - yes.
480i - no. While the new Sonys have a great deinterlacer, the picture is considerably softer compared to running it through the Mini.