Shoot 'Em Up questions.

[Vaagur]

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[Lord Satori]

Did you just imply that Jets'N'Guns is an RPG?

[ACSeraph]

There is actually a Development subforum here that would probably be a great resource to you. My first advice is to check it out and learn about the dos and donts of the genre there. As for your questions, I can answer only based on my preferences as a player, I have no experience with development.

Hori versus Vert: Both can be great it just depends on the design of the game. Dense patterns and precision dodging seem to feel better to me in vert format, while games with environmental hazards seem to work well in hori. I may only feel that way because this is historically how it's been though.

Mouse versus Traditional controls: Maybe I'm just a traditionalist, but I wouldn't have any interest in a mouse controlled shmup.

Simplicity versus RPG style progression: Shmups are arcade games, and excel at simplicity with depth. Players here tend to be competitive, and RPG elements ruin the competitive nature of the genre. I guess it could be done, but all of the progression would need to happen within a single credit. In a way powerups already fulfill this role. Permanently leveling up your ship by playing a lot just sounds like social game bullshit to me so definitely don't do that. I think in game shops are fucking terrible, they kill the pacing in this particular genre.

Linear or Branching Stages: As a fan of Darius I like the idea of multiple routes, but I think that would be a lot of work for an indie game. Maybe focus on making a small set of the best stages possible. Quality over quantity. I don't like games that are broken up into individual selectable stages. To get my interest there needs to be a standard arcade mode that covers all stages intended to be completed in a single credit. That said you should include individual stage select in the form of a training mode to help players learn the game.

Edit:

Also before you learn to make one, might I suggest learning to really play one? Follow the path of the 1cc and clear a game for yourself. This will teach you a lot about what is special about this genre.

[Vaagur]

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[Vaagur]

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[LordHypnos]

Vertizontals are definitely the way to go, IMO. That is to say horizontal screen, vertical orientation. It's a bit easier to dodge bullets, IMO, if they're coming from the top (not sure why this is, exactly), but it's nice to have the game be more pleasant to play for people who lack good monitors for rotating (or on, for example, a laptop screen). Best of both worlds. Typically, unless you have redankulously fast bullets, it won't hurt too much to not have that extra space at the top. Also 4:3 is closest to your natural field of vision, not 3:4

Definitely go keyboard / gamepad. I've actually never tried playing a shmup with a mouse, I guess, but it seems like it would feel weird. Might also restrict the degree to which general shmup skills transfer over.

I'd go with simple, personally. I don't particularly like having to choose between a million different weapon configurations, and usually only one or two end up being that great, anyway. Also, it's best to design your game around the player's weapons, and that's easier when they are fixed. As for power ups, I think that it's very important, if you include powerups, to make sure that they don't make a huge difference, or make sure the player doesn't ever lose them for long. Nothing more frustrating than being super weak right after you die, and then proceeding to die a bunch more.

I'd say it's best to include both a stage select (for practice and/or score attack purposes), and a continuous game that can be 1cced to keep things arcadey.

That being said though, a lot of these things depend on who your target audience are. For example, most of this forum would disagree with me on vertizontals being awesome, but if you want a wider audience, you really don't want to go full verti. Additionally, the broader audience probably likes a bunch of different weapon choices, because it makes the game feel like it has more replay value to someone who doesn't get the idea of single credit clears, or scoring. Generally the same broader audience also likes to have a stage select and probably would prefer it not to have an arcade mode (though I think you'll be pretty good doing both). Some people probably even like extremely punishing power downs.

[ACSeraph]

Also i've finished a few Shoot 'Em Ups, i'm not a pro in the genre, but I definately do not need to play a specific one till the end...

Not any specific game no, but I really do think it's impossible to understand the genre without having experienced the 1cc quest for yourself. It's a very very different thing from credit feeding to completion. It will really open your eyes. If by finished you mean you've already 1cc-ed a game or two then you probably already "get" it.

[Xyga]

I saw mention of jet's n' guns and felt a chill down my spine.

Let's be honest.

Get this clear in your head before you start anything Vaguur: the 'European-style', 'Western', or 'euroshmups' are not very popular here, nor are they with other shmups or arcade communities.

You say you've played a dozen of shmups... But which ones ?

'Shmuppers' by an overwhelming majority, dig Japanese arcade and console shmups as well as Japanese 'pc doujin' productions, the kind of 'indie' stuff made by Europeans and Americans found on popular downloading platforms and mobile OS'es is rarely appreciated.

If you indeed visit the development forum, you'll find lots of harsh criticism on unwelcomed games or games concepts by developers who pop-up here and say 'l ve made/making a shmup' and receive a slap, because they are mistaken about the audience.

So if you want to know what we like, check here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53159
Previous polls listed in this thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41586

Not saying we never like 'euroshmups', but the few we like are the 'updated with Japanese standards' ones.

[Shepardus]

Horizontal vs Vertical?

It doesn't really matter to me personally. I've never used a vertically-oriented monitor but most of my favorite shmups are vertically oriented, though I don't think it's really because of their orientation since I also really like Progear and Deathsmiles and both of those are horizontally oriented. People have said that it's harder for the eyes to keep track of bullet trajectories in horizontal games than vertical games; I don't know how true this actually is, but it's worth keeping in mind. Contrary to what you say I don't think it's any easier to see enemies approaching in horizontal shooters than in vertical shooters. The biggest difference really is going to be the graphics style you use, as horizontal shooters tend to be viewed from the side while vertical shooters tend to be viewed from the top down. And as LordHypnos said, a "vertizontal" shooter (vertical gameplay with horizontal aspect ratio) is also a viable option so it plays nicely with horizontally-oriented monitors.

Gamepad/Keyboard vs Mouse

Definitely not mouse. Contrary to what you say, mouse controls is pretty much the opposite of "having full control of your space ship." In theory, yes mouse controls can do anything a keyboard can do, but in practice no mere mortal has hands that steady. It's well-suited for quick flicks of the wrist like you might see when playing a first-person shooter, but for well-regulated, precise, and predictable movement keyboard/gamepad/arcade stick is the way to go. Just draw out a tight maze in Paint or something and try to move your mouse through it without touching any of the walls, then try to do the same with a keyboard controlling the movement, and you'll see what I mean.

And you're right to be worried about "almost instantaneous movements," unless you can think of a way to balance it that I haven't then it's certainly going to make the player too powerful. A limited movement speed is an important design tool in many shmups - you too should view it as a tool to create meaningful challenges, rather than as an unnecessary hindrance. All good games, after all, are created from the limitations they impose on the player.

Simple vs many RPG elements?

Shmups tend to be rather minimalist in design because there's already plenty to keep track of and even a simple weapons system can create enough depth and challenge to last a lifetime (many popular shmups are still having their records broken after over a decade). Only add something if there's a definite benefit to the game, adding fluff for the sake of having more stuff just makes a game unfocused and very likely unbalanced. Better to do one or two things really well than to do a hundred mediocre things. As Antoine de Saint-Exupéry said, "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

Linear Stages or Stage Select?

Both can work fine depending on what you're going for. Games like rRootage work because of their "stage select" design, while most arcade games really depend on their format to be compelling. I'll just say that the arcade format where you have to go through all the levels in a single credit allows for a sense of long-term planning and resource management, which in a well-designed game adds both depth to the game and tension to a run, as there's more investment from the player into any given run. There's more exhilaration when you succeed because it's not just the moment-to-moment execution, it's also your overarching plan finally coming together. There's also the branching stages format which ACSeraph mentioned Darius implements, but I would recommend against it unless you really know what you're doing and are willing to commit to the extra work of creating and balancing all the extra stages and routes.

It should also be noted that many games with arcade-style stage progression do have a stage select mode for the sake of practice, but that's a different matter since it's usually just for practice and not the main game itself.

[Vaagur]

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[Vaagur]

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[Vaagur]

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[Softdrink 117]

I have played maybe a dozen of Shoot 'Em Ups and i've decided to make one.

Well I'm terrified already. Define "played". And which games, specifically?

Horizontal vs Vertical?

For me, vertical is more comfortable to play. I don't know why, it just feels more natural. I think I remember reading and interview which talked about this with one of Cave's staff members; I think the conclusion they came to is that tiling your eyes up and down is much faster and more intuitive than having to do a back-and-forth 'reading' motion when you are trying to image the paths of bullets and the like. That's not to say that horizontal games are bad; in fact one of my favorite STGs is Darius Burst Another Chronicle, which uses two widescreen monitors side by side for a 32:9 ultra widescreen play area. However, it takes a different kind of design to make a good horizontal game vs. a good vertical one -- there are things that are more commonly seen in one orientation vs. the other, and there are reasons for that.

Gamepad/Keyboard vs Mouse?

I have never -- ever -- played or heard of a mouse controlled STG that was good. In fact, every example I can think of is terrible. It plays badly, except on mobile platforms where it is usually the best solution for touch devices (in which case it can actually work quite well depending on the implementation). It tends to lead to poor game balance and makes the player overpowered. It also doesn't feel at all "solid" in the way that you want a game to feel -- there isn't a sense of "tactility" with mouse controlled motion (at least in my opinion); there is no weight or sense of power behind the movement of the player, and there are no limitations on how they can move. It just feels "floaty". Further, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to be precise with mouse controls, especially not in a consistent or repeatable manner.

To be completely honest, mouse control in a shoot 'em up is one of the relatively few things that will immediately make me stop playing a game. It's just that bad. As far as I know it has never been done well, and I'm not even sure it would be possible to do well, as it fundamentally goes against a lot of the tenets of the genre.

Simple vs many RPG elements?

My preference is simple, mostly because I like the arcade concept of the 1-Credit-Clear and the idea of consistency and repeatability between runs. One of the things that is so appealing to me about the genre is that it is a measure of player skill -- in fact, the very fact that there isn't any RPG element is what makes me like it so much. To (roughly) quote Clover-TAC: "In RPGs, you spend time to make your in game characters level up. In shooting games, you (the player) level up, instead." I like the idea that I am developing myself, and my own skill; and I like that skills I learn playing one game transfer to another.

That said, I think there are cases where RPG style has been done well. Ginga Force seems like a good example; I haven't played it myself, but it seems to have a lot of variety in terms of power up and story progression, yet also maintains a competitive scoring element. Pentavera's Hangeki might be another good example of an attempt to make an interesting shooting game with some RPGish elements. I think that the combination has a lot of potential, provided it is well thought out -- the key, I think, is to provide affordances for player skill to still be the determining factor, especially in score attack and "arcade" modes.

Linear Stages or Stage Select?

Linear stage order. But, having stages available one-by-one to practice is always a good thing. I suppose that a single-stage score attack could be pretty interesting as well, but it would need to be specifically tailored to that kind of gameplay, I would think -- for examples of this kind of design, look at Caravan style shooting games, or things like Pink Sweets Arrange (the time attack mode).

With all that said, please don't get discouraged; this forum often gives harsh feedback to devs -- and many of us are devs ourselves!

[Vaagur]

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[Kaiser]

The general audience of Steam/Indie websites would never play a game that has no continues or only linear stage i'm pretty sure. I would have to make both a Stage Select and a Campaign mode then.

Blue Revolver (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =380437841) has been greenlit, your opinion is invalid. Because that one doesn't have fancy branching paths or anything like that.

[Vaagur]

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[Vaagur]

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[Shepardus]

I thought this was a general Shoot 'Em Up website... Not a Japanese-style one. I personally did not ever own a Japanese video game, so... I can only rely on gameplay videos for those.

It does seem I will not be able to base the difficulty/genre of my game based on the comments from the users of this forum then. :/

It is a general shmup website, but it's safe to say that the vast majority of those who have stuck around here prefer the Japanese-style design. If you're interested in trying some out, though, there are a number of great freeware games such as Cho Ren Sha 68k, rRootage, Mecha Ritz, and Blue Wish Resurrection Plus. I think Hydorah also counts, though it's quite different from the aforementioned games as it's styled after games like Gradius (however you define its lineage it's a good game anyway).

I may be biased but I wouldn't dismiss our suggestions simply because you're aiming for a different sort of game, as many suggestions are applicable to game design in general and not just limited to a particular genre, and are thus worth at least considering.

Also, just saw your reply, Jamestown, Gradius, and Thunder Force are all very much the types of games people here like to discuss; the latter two are actually Japanese-developed if you didn't know. In fact there's a thread just below this one discussing Jamestown's upcoming PS4 release.

[trap15]

A Shoot 'Em Up seemed like the perfect thing. Low graphics requirement, arcadish music (I prefer that over Orchestral or w/e), simpler to code... Much easier than the other genre i've actually tried making.

[Vaagur]

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[Vaagur]

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[Softdrink 117]

I'm a beginner dev and I was looking at making a game I will be able to finish. I've done a few small projects but i've never finished any.

A Shoot 'Em Up seemed like the perfect thing. Low graphics requirement, arcadish music (I prefer that over Orchestral or w/e), simpler to code... Much easier than the other genre i've actually tried making.

Don't get the idea wrong and think i'm only doing that because it's easy though, I do like Shoot 'Em Ups alot... Mostly stuff like Jets'N'Guns, Jamestown, Gradius, Thunder Force... I get it's not the kind of games people around here play though. I'm not into this bullet hell thing at all.

Again, don't be discouraged, and definitely don't think that we all love bullet hell (I do actually but that's beside the point; I'm also a huge fan of the Darius and R-Type series, which are the complete opposite) and that you're doing anything "wrong" by not catering to our taste. This forum does have an affinity for arcade style games, not so much "Japanese" games or "bullet hell" or anything specific like that. It just so happens that 99% of arcade style shooting games have been, and still are, developed in Japan, and that many more recent and popular releases have been of the bullet hell subgenre.

So things like limited lives, limited continues, scoring systems, and linear stage progression are a big deal to us. Asking for advice on this particular forum will get you results with this kind of bias -- it's that simple. That's not to say that all STGs that don't have these qualities are bad per se, but moreover that there is a reason that these kind of games, with these kind of features, did well.

To be quite honest, I think that this is a mistake that a lot of developers make. Shooting games seem like a simple subject for a first project; in some senses, they are. But they take serious planning and testing to do well, and they have a very dedicated (and admittedly somewhat obsessive) fanbase.

[Vaagur]

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[nasty_wolverine]

Yeah, I was trying to make a game based on what people really wanted but apparently it's staying with the same features almost entirely.

At least, it gives me good infos about the genre and it allows me to be a bit creative in some aspects.

A lot of suggestions were already made.

[ACSeraph]

Yeah, I was trying to make a game based on what people really wanted but apparently it's staying with the same features almost entirely.

At least, it gives me good infos about the genre and it allows me to be a bit creative in some aspects.

Those "same features" are the skeleton that make the genre what it is, in the same way that most all good 2D fighters are at their core variants of Street Fighter 2. It's what you flesh it out with, the scoring and weapon systems that make the game unique (and worth playing) This is where you should focus your creativity. There's no need to reinvent the genre.

[Xyga]

You seem to get the wrong idea, nobody's totally dissing euro-style shmups, but warning you about some frequent unfortunate design choices many western developers make, and giving you good advice.

Note; Gradius and Thunder Force are totally Japanese too, as well as Jamestown that borrows a lot from JP design 'rules'. Maybe your vision of what we're calling 'Japanese' is a bit blurred.
It's about gameplay and design, not some kind of apartheid.

Again I suggest you educate yourself about what shmuppers really like by playing several of the most popular shmups (read the polls, really, really do), and there are definitely not just vertical bullet-hell shmups in there.

Try several of the recommended free pc shmups and arcade + console ones using emulators if needed. You have to.

Either way, i'm not dismissing the opinions/suggestions, i'm just going to ignore the suggestions from some people that totally disfavour these type of games and praise only Japanese Shoot 'Em Ups as it's not the style i'm going to go for.

That's really not good, because it's precisely the people who warn you about biggest misconceptions about shmups you should listen to.

BUT, if your idea is to make something aimed rather at steam/indie/mobile games amateur crowds who could care less about what actual decades-long shmup players appreciate... well what can be said ? It's your choice.

[system11]

Locking. He's taken his toys and gone home.

Seems like a little bit of homework and an ability to absorb negative feedback as well as positive would have helped.