What are the best ways to trigger a TLB?

[RHE]

If your game has a TLB how would you make him accessible?

By survinging time, by bomb stock, by highscore or a trick?

[S_Fang]

I would make it available if you play a game on the hardest setting, like Mushihimesama in Ultra Mode.
If I have to choose a certani trick, I'd choose to 1cc the last stage or doing a specific thing like in StarFox 64, for example killing a certain enemy in a certain time or grabbing specific items in the last stage.

[EmperorIng]

In general, I think all of the game should be accessible to those who can survive to the end. Some of the requirements for Cave games are so ludicrous that 99% of the players will feasibly never "complete" the game.

If a last boss is going to be locked away, I think Giga Wing at least played it fair: if you used more than one credit, you didn't see the final boss. And (as a bonus) two players were allowed to see the final boss anyway.

[trap15]

Yeah, gonna go with 1CC requirement only. Extra TLB/loop requirements just seem tedious and annoying to me.

[RHE]

I would make it available if you play a game on the hardest setting, like Mushihimesama in Ultra Mode.
If I have to choose a certani trick, I'd choose to 1cc the last stage or doing a specific thing like in StarFox 64, for example killing a certain enemy in a certain time or grabbing specific items in the last stage.

Well, that would rather be a "ulockable content" thing that you can have with lots of Xbox 360 games, I'd rather want to have this within the first run (1st loop).

1CC should be fine.

[Shepardus]

1CC is a standard requirement that you really can't go wrong with. No-miss is a stricter variation on that, but only do that if there's already no good reason for a top player to die in your game (for example, Dangun Feveron). I'm not much a fan of "in-between" requirements like "no more than two misses" or "sum of lives and bombs lost must not be over 7," as it can make the requirement feel arbitrary to someone who doesn't already know what the requirement is. "Only on hardest difficulty" or "not on easy difficulty" is another variation of the requirement.

Other requirements can also work if they're communicated clearly. For example, I would like the bees requirement in Dodonpachi if they weren't hidden or if it were otherwise clearer that you missed one (without having to memorize dozens of arbitrary spots on the stage), and if it were more obvious how many you needed to collect to trigger the loop. Stuff like destroying certain things in Batrider to trigger secret bosses can also work if the player can draw a clear connection between the trigger and the secret, like destroying something releases an enemy that flies away and later comes back as the TLB or something like that. Also make sure it fits with the game and doesn't feel too much like it was arbitrarily tacked on because you wanted a secret. IMO it's best when a player, upon discovering a secret, thinks "ah, I should have known something was there" rather than "who the hell came up with this stuff?"

[pegboy]

1CC would be my only requirement. Having secretive, obscure, or arbitrary requirements for a TLB is just bad design.

[BPzeBanshee]

Not all games are the same and I don't think TLB requirements are a one-size-fits-all, but 1ccing (or 1-lifing) the game is certainly easy enough to implement and isn't too obtuse for most people. The room for complaint then is whether the TLB is then too easy to reach.

[RHE]

The room for complaint then is whether the TLB is then too easy to reach.

Well, that would depend on the overall 1CC difficulty of the game then...

I'm thinking about 1CC requirement on highest Rank. A low rank player would not see the TLB. But then it probably would be more motivating if every 1CC player would see him.

[TransatlanticFoe]

1CC, definitely. If you are looking at difficulty, just make it available to Normal upwards.

I do like Triggerheart Exelica's secret boss requirements, because it's just an extension of the boss system anyway - better multiplier, more boss phases.

[n0rtygames]

For real?

Whatever you feel is right.

No matter how much you think about it, if your game is easy for one player it will be "yawn ezmode", too hard for someone and its "shitty". One player might appreciate the absurdity of your hard to reach conditions while another might really get some sort of masochistic kick out of finally beating them.

So long as your game is good enough to be replayed, then having a locked away boss can come as a nice surprise. If you tell anyone about it in advance though, it just becomes a stupid mental barrier that the player will never reach and can be offputting even for the most hardened vets.



What should be "Holy shit dude.. that's amazing!!" and an increase in players interest in your game because one player was a total badass and did the unthinkable becomes "Man, I'm so bad I'll never be able to achieve that" - which is a terrible mindset for your player to develop early on in your game.

1. Fun first
2. Replayability!
3. Secrets (that you actually keep secret)

I think often people forget that half of the draw to new players in to this genre (meaning pretty much nobody reading this post right now - since a lot of us have forgotten what its like to be a total noob!) is the weird and whacky world of shmups has all these interesting pieces of information that the community has compiled over the years which make things fun. Remember when you read about the TLB in a game for the first time and you thought "holy shit, I have to what??" - then you savestate your way there to check it out out of some sort of excitement..

Someone has to find joy in the game to play it enough to discover that secret in the first place. So, locking away content that you've spent a lot of time working on is a pretty brave move.

I think DDP does it particularly well. The conditions aren't really that obtuse. You gotta beat the game losing no more than 2 lives to enter the second loop. Well, if the second loop wasn't a thing and you went straight in to the TLB - what you'd basically have is "beat the game without losing the resources you were given at the start".. since if you lose more than 2 lives and haven't picked up an extend - it's gameover

TL;DR - 2 lives in a single loop game - that's my answer

[Kaiser]

A detailed post about TLB or secret conditions that gets it damn right

This guy, right here, gets it what it should be about. Although he learned it from the big design mistake that was Chronoblast's 2nd loop and TLB

Basically like he said, there's no point in stuffing your game with secrets, hidden bosses or anything like that, if your players INCLUDING testers, don't come back to your game after beating it for the first try, 1cc or not. Then you have to work on the game so it encourages the players to come back to play them again and try to find more quirks, you do that by doing GOOD DESIGN that is fun.

Once you have nailed the basics of the design, you can go around implementing secrets and stuff, but they have to be well hinted even if subtly, like recoloring an enemy to stand out (note: Final Boss does this) from it's formation, vague hints can also work but provided they are relevant to what the secret is about.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't mind having a few extra requirements besides a 1cc, so long as their reasonable. Like, if Batrider gave you a tlb for successfully triggering every boss, that would be kinda cool IMO.

[Cagar]

For the real TLB to appear, good requirement is just 1CC.

But I think that it's good to have SOME secret..form or phase hidden with special requirements.
Like even if it's just the recolor of the usual TLB but harder, it would still be nice to have, behind some hard requirements.
Sort of like a last candy for the very pros that isn't considered a whole 'TLB' because the 1CC-one already is.

(Think of Hibachi =1CC TLB -> Zatsuza = Secret form of the original TLB)
Like Hibachi is still considered a TLB, and zatsuza is just a crazy secret.

[n0rtygames]

This guy, right here, gets it what it should be about. Although he learned it from the big design mistake that was Chronoblast's 2nd loop and TLB

The actual content of the 2nd loop/tlb wasn't a problem. TLB had too much health, but this was a snowball effect from the rest of the game. The only reason that we can say the TLB has too much health is because 1. the fight gets really long and 2. it is incredibly difficult to reach it with all resources, which would otherwise allow you to survive longer to deal with the fact that the TLB does actually take quite a while to kill. Basically, the faults of the game come earlier and in a 2 loop game they are doubled as you must endure the same stuff twice.

There's a video of a japanese player beating the TLB using autobomb in practise mode, so with a full life and bomb stock it can be killed using resources (at that stage in the game resources really no longer matter to such an extent as your score is cashed in before the TLB. It's mostly an ego bonus that has little impact on your score other than really highlighting the fact that you beat it. I expect you to use everything at that point of the game because it's the final fight. Duh). The major problems of the game (Which I've discussed at length with Emuser) can be pinpointed to a couple of very specific points -- which I'm not gonna go in to right now

[Blackbird]

I think a 1CC is fine. As a game developer, you don't want to be making content that only a handful of people will ever see. Make the TLB really awesome, then include a challenging, but achievable unlock condition that rewards the player with awesome extra content (your TLB) for playing the game as intended. Basically the function of the TLB in game mechanics terms is to serve as the exciting climactic battle to your game.

Doing it this way also discourages credit feeding if you have continues in your game.

[RHE]

Basically the function of the TLB in game mechanics terms is to serve as the exciting climactic battle to your game.

So, I'd say that a TLB should only be about survival and not scoring, besides a defeat bonus maybe.

Dang, what actually will happen if you use a credit during a TLB fight?

[trap15]

With Ketsui at least, the game instantly ends on the TLB if you game over, there is no continue screen at all.

[BPzeBanshee]

Crimzon Clover makes the TLB's second phase take flight and leave if you coinfeed on him beforehand.

[Pteriforever]

The requirements for TLBs and other assorted "secret" bosses in my games have varied a lot.

-- Mr. D and DROWNED and the stages they belong to in Abmneshi require at least Cultist and Haunted mode respectively.

-- Chaos Balancer Avatar, also from Abmneshi, requires a multiplier of at least x9.0 at the time Mr. D is reached on Haunted mode.

-- The SH1 final boss, Perfection Seeker, gains one extra form for every difficulty level higher, to a maximum of three.

-- Wireworld and Wireworld mkII from SH1 both require at least Hell mode, and at least 14 and 18 lives remaining respectively.

I went a bit overboard with TLBs and secret bosses in SH2:

-- The normal final boss, Flag Carrier Vindication, also gains extra forms with higher difficulties in the same manner as SH1, to a maximum of four.

-- The Stage 3 and 4 bosses will throw out second forms if they're beaten on Hell or higher with a full Guard bar.

-- The Encourager and her stage require at least 200 golden point items across Stages 1 and 2.

-- The true final stage requires finishing the normal final stage with at least 11 lives remaining.

-- If one defeats The Encourager but then later fails the true final stage requirement, the first real TLB, Platinum Light, is fought.

-- If the true final stage is reached without fighting The Encourager, you get the second TLB, The Worthy One.

-- The TLTLB, Despair Network, can only be reached by both defeating The Encourager and accessing the true final stage.

[Taizen Chisou]

What excellent timing, I was just wondering this.
Is it bad of me to push a True Last Stage at the end of a second loop that is accessible only on a 1CC and closes without option of continue on game over?

[n0rtygames]

That sounds totally fine, so long as you're prepared to have your content locked away from a chunk of players. If you're questioning whether or not it's a good idea though - then why are you doing it?

Anyway, stop telling people all your secrets fgs!!

[Taizen Chisou]

Nah, Re: Lunacy Star already locks a fair amount away from players that I'm fairly certain very, very few people will see anyway. Like the end of the Second Story, or the Chaos Drive attack patterns. In fact, I can only confirm the existence of exactly one player who has done so, other than myself.

I guess a better question is, will people take issue with me placing this brutal bonus level at the end of a yet-unseen-in-the-series ura loop (Assuming they don't take issue with the removal of multiple difficulty settings.) It shouldnt be so bad if my 1-all is only 20 minutes, right...?

[emphatic]

1CC for TLB to appear but with an extra form added to the TLB if the player finishes the game with a low bomb percentage (less than 3 bombs used) throughout the game could be an extra cherry on top for tenacious players.

[Emuser]

I could go on for an aeon about Chronoblast, I wish the topic was still there with my 2-6 and 2-ALL scores :/

As sickening and cruel and evil as it was, it felt so good to see the end of it all.