What is best in shmup

[Obscura]

Complete fucking nonsense. I can't even find a single High Score submission from Espgaluda from you, so clearly you have no idea how to play. "Tediously milk"? This isn't a game where you chip off boss parts during a long fight; the longest milking against a boss you have to do is the Stage 3 midboss, and that doesn't last terribly long by milking standards (not to mention the stage 3 midboss is super easy). Against bosses, there's occasionally an ideal phase to cancel on for scoring purposes, but it's a quick switch into kakusei, kill, and switch out. You don't sit in kakusei for minutes at a time unless you're focusing on survival!

Of course I don't have a score submission for it; I don't like the game, so I'm sure as hell not going to try to spend a bunch of time beating people's score in it (read what I said earlier about the "hundred hours fallacy").

But there's some seriously tedious shit in that game. "Stop shooting, wait for a nice line of bullets to form, Kakusei, tap off a shot to get a bunch of gold, wait for another nice line to form, tap off a shot"... BOOOOOORRRRRIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGGG. Why would I subject myself to that when I could go play Raiden 3 or 4 or Dragon Blaze?

Complaining about Futari's sucking because of how it feels arbitrary is no less silly than complaining about something like Ketsui's or DDP's. They're all abstract systems on top of the core mechanics. Futari combines a use X shot type with a close range bonus. The weapons in Futari are actually balanced quite well so that both the shot and laser both function very well not to mention for stronger enemies/bosses, all that matters is the killing blow, so it really isn't a major concern what color your meter is at any given point. Your shot types can manage regardless of what your counter currently displays.

The weapons may be balanced (I haven't played it that much since I really don't like it, so I'll go with it), but the movement speeds still make laser better for large enemies and shot better for popcorn slaying.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

But there's some seriously tedious shit in DOJ. "Stop shooting, wait for a nice line of enemies to form, hyper, tap off a shot every so ofter to keep the counter from dropping, wait for more popcorns to build up, tap off a shot"... BOOOOOORRRRRIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGGG.

Wait, you were talking about DOJ, right? Yeah, that sounds right. Oh, and don't forget that chaining is unforgiving as fuck, in a game that's generally considered to be quite tricky as it is without trying to chain.

The movement speeds in Futari are both quite manageable. In sections where laser is needed but counter is green, the solution is simple, laser enough to weaken the enemy and finish with shot. This isn't too tough. In sections where shot is ideal but the counter is blue, it's a bit tougher - tap and hold to laser, let go to suck in gems, repeat. You may need to fire shot to avoid having a popcorn smack you, but this is rarely the case and is quite manageable. Again, you can totally ignore the counter at sections where you find it too hard to do this without suffering a massive score loss, unlike something like DDP/DOJ where you absolutely need to be lasering at certain spots, or using the shot for the extra meter gain, or not shooting at all, and a chain break costs you massively compared to a full chain, meaning ideal scoring is way more restrictive.

If nothing else, I find DDP chaining's unforgivingness to make it feel like a weaker scoring mechanic. It's really hard for beginners to approach or learn to integrate as you get better. You have to approach it as all or nothing; learn the stage chains or don't bother at all with them.

[Squire Grooktook]

Try playing original mode with abnormal reco, and you'll see part of why the game is so great. A lot of big enemy spreads can be macro dodged in the most thrilling ways possible. It is just endlessly fun to go around around an en entire spread. Once you see that, the other characters start to make more sense. There are times when it still feels off to use the high speed for dense patterns, but their not all that common.

[Obscura]

. Oh, and don't forget that chaining is unforgiving as fuck

This alone makes it a whole lot more exciting than Espgaluda.

If nothing else, I find DDP chaining's unforgivingness to make it feel like a weaker scoring mechanic. It's really hard for beginners to approach or learn to integrate as you get better. You have to approach it as all or nothing; learn the stage chains or don't bother at all with them.

That's not really true, IMO; a lot of beginners and intermediate DOJBL players will likely find themselves in the position that they can chain each half of stage 2 separately, but can't put those two halves together, and can chain the first half of stage 3 but not the second half, but that still scores a shit-ton better than not chaining those stage halves. Like "add another digit to your score" better.

(Also, DOJBL and DFK 1.5 have pretty forgiving chain timing, and DP's shorter chains with super-strict timing mean you don't spend a lot of time trying to precisely space kills. DDP is a bit of a bitch, I'll admit; on the very rare occasion I toss a virtual quarter into that game, I don't try to chain it at all.)

@SquireGrooktook: I know we've had this conversation on Steam before, but I agree that Futari 1.5's score system makes a lot more sense with Abnormal Reco than the other shot types. Unfortunately, then you have a goofy reverse-focus for the bosses. And you're still playing a fast-bullet streaming game with small hitboxes and shots that are aimed at the exact pixel, which will always be inferior to the Psikyo/Raiden style of fast streaming with larger hitboxes and angle-snapped shots but looser spreads.

[Squire Grooktook]

Unfortunately, then you have a goofy reverse-focus for the bosses.

For the bosses, you actually can still do some crazy macro dodges with the reverse focus. Not really nessecary, but circling around the stage 3 boss entirely during his second phase is just crazy fun.

And you're still playing a fast-bullet streaming game with small hitboxes and shots that are aimed at the exact pixel, which will always be inferior to the Psikyo/Raiden style of fast streaming with larger hitboxes and angle-snapped shots but looser spreads.

Sadly, as much as I like the game, I have to admit I agree. The lack of randomness is what kills a lot of Cave's games for me. Fun, but it stops them from being as god tier as they could have been imo. That being said Mushi's level design and patterns are pretty great, and do compensate for this to an extent I find. I'm particularly fond of some of the "longer" dodges you have to do in stage 4.

I actually think large hitboxes are really great for making you move around more, and faster too, since you have to move farther to get out of the way of bullets. But on the other hand, the complexity has to be turned down a notch in exchange. I like games that find a balance.

[emphatic]

Why would I subject myself to that when I could go play Raiden 3

notsureifserious.jpg

[BareKnuckleRoo]

\This alone makes it a whole lot more exciting than Espgaluda.

You're welcome to your opinion, insane as it may be. Espgaluda does heavily punish you for deaths as well as getting hit during Kakusei, so it's not as if Espgaluda is a constant snoozefest. You just don't seem to like games in general where bullets turn into gems and require waiting for dense patterns in spots in order to maximize score.

And for the record, Espgaluda requires insane, DDP-like timing in order for superplay scores. Getting a 1000 gold meter on stage 1 is incredibly demanding.

And you're still playing a fast-bullet streaming game with small hitboxes and shots that are aimed at the exact pixel, which will always be inferior to the Psikyo/Raiden style

You're welcome to your opinion, insane as it may be. Both Psikyo and Raiden games have scoring that I find extremely boring by comparison to anything else that's been mentioned, and I'm not fond of lightspeed bullets that you basically have to know are coming in order to dodge/bomb them.

[Obscura]

Why would I subject myself to that when I could go play Raiden 3

notsureifserious.jpg

Why wouldn't I be? The hate that game gets is stupid; Raiden 3 is great.

You're welcome to your opinion, insane as it may be. Both Psikyo and Raiden games have scoring that I find extremely boring by comparison to anything else that's been mentioned, and I'm not fond of lightspeed bullets that you basically have to know are coming in order to dodge/bomb them.

The Mushi Original modes have at least as much memo-tapping as any Psikyo/Raiden, possibly more. The difference is that every shot is right at your pixel so you just have to say "ok, it's this pattern, it aims a bullet at me, tiny tap" or "ok, it's this pattern, it aims a gap at me, don't fucking move". They practically reduce shmupping to a rhythm game. Meanwhile, you'll need to do some memo in any Psikyo game (less in any given Raiden game, and memo will help you less in those games since they tend to have some randomization in their popcorn waves), but the fact that the basic popcorn shots in those games are generally angle-snapped and looser means you still always have to do some sight reading to make sure you don't tap into a bullet that was angle-snapped ahead of you this time because you were one pixel further to the right than normal.

(Also, how the hell do Raiden III or Dragon Blaze have boring scoring, since scoring in those games is about riding the top of the screen as much as you can and playing aggressive as fuck, for Flash Shot bonuses in Raiden III or dragon shot coin showers in Dragon Blaze?)

Oh, and a score system being hard isn't enough for it to equate to fun or exciting. Getting a world record score in Galuda is hard, sure. But I don't care what shmup you care to name, getting a world record score on ANY arcade shmup, no matter what game it is, would be incredibly demanding if it was popular. People will find ways to squeeze blood from a stone.

[Erppo]

The Mushi Original modes have at least as much memo-tapping as any Psikyo/Raiden, possibly more. The difference is that every shot is right at your pixel so you just have to say "ok, it's this pattern, it aims a bullet at me, tiny tap" or "ok, it's this pattern, it aims a gap at me, don't fucking move". They practically reduce shmupping to a rhythm game. Meanwhile, you'll need to do some memo in any Psikyo game (less in any given Raiden game, and memo will help you less in those games since they tend to have some randomization in their popcorn waves), but the fact that the basic popcorn shots in those games are generally angle-snapped and looser means you still always have to do some sight reading to make sure you don't tap into a bullet that was angle-snapped ahead of you this time because you were one pixel further to the right than normal.

The more I read these the more it feels like you haven't really played or understood any of the games you pretend to know about.

[Obscura]

The Mushi Original modes have at least as much memo-tapping as any Psikyo/Raiden, possibly more. The difference is that every shot is right at your pixel so you just have to say "ok, it's this pattern, it aims a bullet at me, tiny tap" or "ok, it's this pattern, it aims a gap at me, don't fucking move". They practically reduce shmupping to a rhythm game. Meanwhile, you'll need to do some memo in any Psikyo game (less in any given Raiden game, and memo will help you less in those games since they tend to have some randomization in their popcorn waves), but the fact that the basic popcorn shots in those games are generally angle-snapped and looser means you still always have to do some sight reading to make sure you don't tap into a bullet that was angle-snapped ahead of you this time because you were one pixel further to the right than normal.

The more I read these the more it feels like you haven't really played or understood any of the games you pretend to know about.

"Hey, I can't refute what that guy is saying, but I don't agree with it, so I'm just going to imply that he 'doesn't understand the games', and since I'm a more skilled player, I automatically win the argument!!!!"

(Oh, btw, I've cleared Mushi original and Futari BL Original, so I've definitely played both games.)

[Erppo]

I'm not interested in the argument. You can keep on playing your shmup expert role as you wish.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The more I read these the more it feels like you haven't really played or understood any of the games you pretend to know about.

That's the magic of the internet; you get to pretend your opinion is worth its weight in gold, regardless of how informed it is.

(Oh, btw, I've cleared Mushi original and Futari BL Original, so I've definitely played both games.)

What were your clear scores? I'm particularly interested in the Futari one.

[Obscura]

The more I read these the more it feels like you haven't really played or understood any of the games you pretend to know about.

That's the magic of the internet; you get to pretend your opinion is worth its weight in gold, regardless of how informed it is.

(Oh, btw, I've cleared Mushi original and Futari BL Original, so I've definitely played both games.)

What were your clear scores? I'm particularly interested in the Futari one.

I don't remember the Mushi clear score, but it wasn't spectacular; I hit the second score extend early in stage 5 IIRC. Mind you, I wouldn't apply my criticisms of Futari's score system to Original in the first Mushi (for obvious reasons). The Futari clear score I think I posted somewhere around here, but I'm too lazy to look for it; if you look through my old posts, you should find it. Mind you, it's nothing spectacular either (I did well enough to get the second extend in stage 4, but that's about it; I didn't care to do too much better since I didn't like the game and was pretty much "hate-fucking" it, trying to get the clear just because it pissed me off that I couldn't clear the game that's held up as the "easy beginner shmup").

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Also, how the hell do Raiden III or Dragon Blaze have boring scoring

Never played Raiden III. I've played the original Raiden and Raiden IV, Raiden IV relies on spamming the weaksauce charge shot for those piddly extra plink points during bosses. Raiden Fighters games have some more interesting scoring, but if I'm not mistaken they were originally gaiden games that got rebranded as Raiden series games later?

I've only played a couple of credits of Dragon Blaze, so I can't comment on it at length, but in general, the point blank boss insta kills are neat, but they feel more like a secret 'trick' that you have to learn than part of the scoring. My main complaint with Psikyo games in general is their reliance on those flashing medals you have to collect at a certain time (Gunbird games, Striker games). That medal chaining isn't terribly fun. Gunbird II's also got those weird gem dropping enemies whose activation requirements feel really esoteric. I just haven't played anything by Psikyo that I can say is genuinely interesting for score.

Cyvern on the other hand by Kaneko is an interesting game. It feels very Psikyo-esque in its attacks, but the scoring consists of a much more solid medaling mechanic focused around use of your breath attacks. It's far more enjoyable to me scoring-wise than anything I've played by Psikyo.

wouldn't apply my criticisms of Futari's score system to Original in the first Mushi (for obvious reasons)

I love the first Mushi, but I think its scoring system is garbage. To play it well requires setting some seriously obtuse shot tapping (hence why the ports allow you to set rapid fire speeds for the extra buttons), which I don't think is good design. From what I've played, Mushi 1.5 was greatly improved, but I haven't had more than a few credits in it.

[Obscura]

Also, how the hell do Raiden III or Dragon Blaze have boring scoring

Never played Raiden III. I've played the original Raiden and Raiden IV, Raiden IV relies on spamming the weaksauce charge shot for those piddly extra plink points during bosses. Raiden Fighters games have some more interesting scoring, but if I'm not mistaken they were originally gaiden games that got rebranded as Raiden series games later?

Agreed, Raiden IV scoring kinda sucks. It's great as a survival game, but I wouldn't recommend it for scoreplay (there's a reason why it's not mentioned in the sentence you quoted, heh). Unless there's something I've missed (admittedly possible, I've only been playing Raiden III for a few days now) Raiden III doesn't have the missile charge, Sols, or grazing; the only score mechanics are "don't die, don't bomb, grab the point items, and speedkill shit for the multiplier".

And yeah, the RF games weren't originally intended to be a part of the Raiden series, and I'm counting them as a separate series.

I've only played a couple of credits of Dragon Blaze, so I can't comment on it at length, but in general, the point blank boss insta kills are neat, but they feel more like a secret 'trick' that you have to learn than part of the scoring.

The rest of that game's scoring is reliant on dragon-shotting as many enemies as possible for the extra gold coin showers. It doesn't have the "coin flash" mechanic like most other Psikyo games do. (It also does have the gem-heads, but the requirements for triggering those are fairly straightforward).

Cyvern on the other hand by Kaneko is an interesting game. It feels very Psikyo-esque in its attacks, but the scoring consists of a much more solid medaling mechanic focused around use of your breath attacks. It's far more enjoyable to me scoring-wise than anything I've played by Psikyo.

Haven't ever played it, but I'll have to look into it

EDIT: I thought that the obtuse shot tapping shit in the first Mushi was limited to Maniac mode, and that original mode was mostly "shoot shit, don't die, point-blank 'hardened' enemies for extra gem showers"?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

EDIT: I thought that the obtuse shot tapping shit in the first Mushi was limited to Maniac mode, and that original mode was mostly "shoot shit, don't die, point-blank 'hardened' enemies for extra gem showers"?

I think you're right that it applies more to cashing in the child counters in Maniac/Ultra. Original mainly has a massive life stock bonus at the end. Original's a bit less silly to play to play than Maniac, but it's still got some issues such as W-Shot being (in every mode) by far the best for scoring due to the added perhit bonuses. Mushi 1.0's scoring in general doesn't feel really as thought out to me, and honestly I find working on DDP chaining more fun.

Honestly I'm way better at Futari than I am at Mushi, so I'm probably not the best person to talk about Mushi's scoring.

[dex]

Q: What is best in shmup?
A: Crush enemy ships, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their waifus.

(I picked 2/5/8, I just like rank. 3 and 1 are also important though)

[Squire Grooktook]

The Mushi Original modes have at least as much memo-tapping as any Psikyo/Raiden, possibly more. The difference is that every shot is right at your pixel so you just have to say "ok, it's this pattern, it aims a bullet at me, tiny tap" or "ok, it's this pattern, it aims a gap at me, don't fucking move". They practically reduce shmupping to a rhythm game. Meanwhile, you'll need to do some memo in any Psikyo game (less in any given Raiden game, and memo will help you less in those games since they tend to have some randomization in their popcorn waves), but the fact that the basic popcorn shots in those games are generally angle-snapped and looser means you still always have to do some sight reading to make sure you don't tap into a bullet that was angle-snapped ahead of you this time because you were one pixel further to the right than normal.

The more I read these the more it feels like you haven't really played or understood any of the games you pretend to know about.

He has a point imo. I feel like Cave did get really formulaic and started relying too much on precise aimed shots at some point. A bit exagerated though, as there is way more to Mushi than that.

I actually prefer Ketsui's system over Dragon Blaze though, because it forces you to use and balance both ranged and point blanking based combat, whereas (if I understand it) Dragon Blaze you theoretically want to melee everything.

[Erppo]

He has a point imo. I feel like Cave did get really formulaic and started relying too much on precise aimed shots at some point. A bit exagerated though, as there is way more to Mushi than that.

But the Cave stage design has always been about the combination of precise aimed (air) and coarsely aimed (ground). This is very strongly there in the the later games too. Futari is the only exception to this design pattern I can think of now.

[Obscura]

Mushihimesama Original is all precisely aimed (see 13:39 of this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLNm3t4C-04 )

Meanwhile, DOJ coursely aims a lot of the shots from air enemies (most obvious a bit past 1:15 in this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plpI-011z1g)

[Lilium]

1:39 shows Reco on her beetle. Fascinating.

[Obscura]

Typo fixed

[Giest118]

Whether they're precisely or "coarsely" aimed is based on whether the enemy has a visible gun barrel; they have limited frames of turning, and the developers went with a set of "aimable directions" based on what would look good coming out of those barrels. The Mushi games have no gun barrels (because, y'know, bugs and dinosaurs) and so they just made everything precise. The effects on gameplay are purely incidental. Real and quantifiable, but incidental.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It's not like the Mushi games are all streaming constantly. There's a lot of streaming during stages that can be done, but doing that while collecting points near the upper portion of the screen adds a good deal to the challenge. Not to mention the hardest parts of the game come from when there are combinations of aimed + fixed/wide spreads (see: the larger enemies in stage 4). If your plan for survival is sitting at the bottom of the screen and tap dodging constantly, you're probably not going to score all that well, and even streaming segments require making potentially tricky crossovers.

The popcorn enemies in the later portion of DOJ stage three are very unusual in that they produce a screen flooding amount of bullets to the point where bullet walls easily form if you don't know what you're doing. It's really quite difficult I find until you learn exactly where each enemy appearance is and how to position yourself.

[Erppo]

The Mushi games have no gun barrels (because, y'know, bugs and dinosaurs) and so they just made everything precise. The effects on gameplay are purely incidental. Real and quantifiable, but incidental.

No it's not. Mushi has normal ground popcorn aiming except not in Original. Futari changed it between 1.0 and 1.5.

[Giest118]

Huh. For my reference, are there any other exceptions to that "rule" that you know of?

[Obscura]

I know that in DOJ, a lot of things that shoot aimed "complex" patterns only have a limited number of angles, even if it doesn't look like it's coming from a gun barrel. The giant tanks that shoot the aimed "cone" in stage 2 and the giant bees in the stage 5 "hive" come to mind.