Mhmmm well, there goes my theory12345 wrote:I'm not sure, my mini is still on YcBCR when set to DVI.
![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
Mhmmm well, there goes my theory12345 wrote:I'm not sure, my mini is still on YcBCR when set to DVI.
Rongolian wrote:I tried FBX's settings and really like the picture it gives, but I still have two problems:
1) The scanlines on 1080p, even though they default to ScanA with these settings, still look really thin to me (scanlines are a must for sprite-based 240p content for me)
2) I think that much black unused space on my modest sized television isn't worth the increased sharpness
I've used 720p for some time now for my 240p sources, primarily for the scanlines, and I'm happy with how my TV handles it. I really do wish there was a better answer for 1080p scanlines though, as I would definitely prefer to not have my TV scale anything at all
I've just checked it again with 240p-suite on my set. Unfortunately I don't have the means to prove it but is there a chance that DVI output ist limited to "RGB limited" whereas the HDMI output can do both, full and limited?Thomago wrote:Yep, here. I think that's because in DVI mode the Mini always outputs RGB.12345 wrote:Btw. I came across another weird thing: When setting the mini to DVI it seems to have different Gamma/Blacklevel settings, even with the same values. Can anybody confirm that?
It's not the D-Terminal input that is oversaturated - it's the Mini's faulty colour mode/range/whatever control that makes it look that way. And as the Mini's colour settings naturally don't affect the OSD, changing them doesn't do a thing about the OSD's oversaturation. Give switching to DVI output mode a try - in my case that yields a picture that, apart from the need for A/D-LEVEL adjustment, is perfect with stock settings.12345 wrote:I realize that the OSD's blue looks oversaturated on D-terminal in comparison to RGB. At first I thought this might be due to the generally oversaturated D-terminal input but even after changing the color setting it doesn't seem to be possible to adapt the way the OSD looks, even though the rest of the picture seemingly changes. Can anybody confirm that?
Ok, first of all, the stock settings aren't perfect, neither are those on the wiki. Black level is completely off, not speaking of the colors.Thomago wrote: Give switching to DVI output mode a try - in my case that yields a picture that, apart from the need for A/D-LEVEL adjustment, is perfect with stock settings.
Hey there, Grimakis. Welcome aboard.Grimakis wrote:I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I just ordered the Framemeister from Solaris, and it came with a AC adapter rated for 240V-100V input. So it seems like it should be more import friendly.
For me, the stock settings work perfectly:12345 wrote:Ok, first of all, the stock settings aren't perfect, neither are those on the wiki. Black level is completely off, not speaking of the colors.
12345 wrote: @FBX
Did you make sure to set V_scaler to 5 or lower on 480i/p? If you set it any higher than 5 you will get bad results, as previously discussed in this thread and also proven by Fudoh.
Furthermore I can't see how H_scaler: 4 could give you a pleasing result. I think setting it to 6 or 8-11 looks ok. 7 looks weird as well for some reason with and without the sharpness option.
why don't you simply set the BD player to output full range RGB and set the TV accordingly ? 99% of all players have absolutely no problems with that conversion.I calibrated my Sony W600B TV using Spears & Munsil 2nd Edition which requires you to calibrate in YCbCr 4:2:2 and by setting the TV to Limited RGB.
But anything you connect directly to your TV or comes from the built-in tuner will most likely be off, unless it is native full RGB, right?Fudoh wrote:No, it's fine. All BD and DVD content is stored in YCbCr4:2:0 in limited range. When you set your player's output to either RGB (full or limited), YCbCr 4:2:2 or YCbCr 4:4:4 the content gets PROPERLY converted.
How can everything internal be fine if I can calibrate my set in 2 different color spaces? While the external player converts everything going through in the right range accordingly the TV always gets the same internal 4:2:0 input, speaking of broadcast for example. How could this look the same with different values in my display settings for every color space I calibrate it for?Fudoh wrote:No. The calibration will be perfectly fine with both YCbCr in limited range and the set RGB range. It will just be off for the "other" RGB range (depending on wether you had your system set to limited or full range RGB).
Everything internal (DVB tuner and so on) is limited YCbCr and will be fine.
As long as your player and TV's settings are matched, you are not supposed to get different values in your settings. If this happens then a machine in your processing chains fails at the conversion process.How could this look the same with different values in my display settings for every color space I calibrate it for?
Only if the TV has the manual option to convert to RGB full as well. If it is calibrated for RGB full but expects/receives 4:2:0 from any source BUT the BD/DVD-player then it fails at being accurate.Fudoh wrote:As long as your player and TV's settings are matched, you are not supposed to get different values in your settings. If this happens then a machine in your processing chains fails at the conversion process.How could this look the same with different values in my display settings for every color space I calibrate it for?
you're now mixing things up which don't have anything to do with each other.Only if the TV has the manual option to convert to RGB full as well. If it is calibrated for RGB full but expects/receives 4:2:0 from any source BUT the BD/DVD-player then it fails at being accurate.
4:2:0 sampling only exists on compressed media. It cannot be transmitted from a player to a display (well, there's a 4K format which uses it, but we're not talking about that). YCbCr transmission can be 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. If you actually mean limited range YCbCr versus full range RGB: if the TV supports both formats then the calibration results have to be identical.Another example: TV has been calibrated for 4:2:0, then AVSHD is forced to RGB full through the BD-player as a test, TV displays patterns inaccurately
I don't know a single one. Even the cheapest decoder chips have support for all three formats these days.Edit: I'd like to add on a little sidenote that many players nowadays only offer HDMI-passthrough and thus don't do any conversion whatsoever.
this is so wrong that it makes me cry - or laugh - or both - or scream......Additionally, if you restrict yourself to levels 16-235 you wind up with a brighter image with a better contrast ratio, as you can turn up the contrast level higher.
The problem is that with today hardware it's a 8bit to 8 bit conversion (per color channel), so there will be some quantization errors. And if you do an rgb to yuv (or vice versa) convertion, floating-point are involve before getting back to integer so ...quantization errors...Fudoh wrote:Limited to full range should always be losless.
One thing that is never ever mentionned in all these limited/full articles, is that in a 24bit full range signal you get 256*256*256 = 16 million colors.Fudoh wrote:The opposite is certainly more critical and can cause slight color banding problems (but it's also much less common).
Of course 4:2:0 is not processed as is but at least at 4:2:2, or 4:4:4 if you want so. Sorry but I can't see how the TV could handle those signals equally without either distincting between the two of them automatically or manually, set by the user.Fudoh wrote:4:2:0 sampling only exists on compressed media. It cannot be transmitted from a player to a display (well, there's a 4K format which uses it, but we're not talking about that). YCbCr transmission can be 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. If you actually mean limited range YCbCr versus full range RGB: if the TV supports both formats then the calibration results have to be identical.Another example: TV has been calibrated for 4:2:0, then AVSHD is forced to RGB full through the BD-player as a test, TV displays patterns inaccurately
They support all formats but do they automatically convert all of their inputs? I doubt it.Fudoh wrote:I don't know a single one. Even the cheapest decoder chips have support for all three formats these days.Edit: I'd like to add on a little sidenote that many players nowadays only offer HDMI-passthrough and thus don't do any conversion whatsoever.
^^thisSo I say for movie go ycbcr "limited", because that's the standard (even if it's a stupid useless nonsense). For gaming, go full rgb if you can.
outputs. I was refering to the decoder chips on the players' end.They support all formats but do they automatically convert all of their inputs? I doubt it.